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Delisted 13. Liam Stocker

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Arr0w said:
Went to school/played footy with David, nice guy and very good operator, but not at Russell's level
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too many buts, ifs and ants for mine.........
 
mr_robot said:
He's a good operator, sure. But he had a great team surrounding him at the hawks. The fitness/conditioning pitfalls of yesteryear haven't suddenly disappeared because Andrew Russell has now walked into the club.
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those systems start somewhere. There is a leader who carries others with him. Thats russel. Clarkson is the same. he has spawned a whole lot of very successful assistant coaches. But someone started the ball rolling and influenced the others that followed
 
Macca43 said:
I know Willo is a massive fan.
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I think we get all too easily seduced to the new.
We do it every time and we heard the same thing from players when Malthouse arrived. We also sang the same song when Trigg arrived. Buttifant.
Williamson may well be a fan, but what weight does that really carry?

That has nothing to do with what Russell may have brought along or will do, but just that players' observations, on something they don't really know a lot about, shouldn't carry too much weight at all.

I know. This time it is different and maybe it will be, but it may be fair to wait until seasons end to gauge just how much benefit one individual actually brings to the whole....and then if one individual can, how on earth could have we had someone so inferior previously? How does that happen?

BTW - The Hawks still did OK with getting 'crippled' Scully back on track two rounds into the year.
 
HARKER said:
I think we get all too easily seduced to the new.
We do it every time and we heard the same thing from players when Malthouse arrived. We also sang the same song when Trigg arrived. Buttifant.
Williamson may well be a fan, but what weight does that really carry?

That has nothing to do with what Russell may have brought along or will do, but just that players' observations, on something they don't really know a lot about, shouldn't carry too much weight at all.

I know. This time it is different and maybe it will be, but it may be fair to wait until seasons end to gauge just how much benefit one individual actually brings to the whole....and then if one individual can, how on earth could have we had someone so inferior previously? How does that happen?

BTW - The Hawks still did OK with getting 'crippled' Scully back on track two rounds into the year.
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Spot on, Harker. I'm not doubting his ability but I believe the hype and undivided trust in one individual steering the ship 180 degrees from a high performance standpoint is misguided.

The fact that players really rate Russell is fantastic and all, but buy-in from players is only one piece to the overall puzzle. Russell may well be a great communicator and create buy-in from the group. But if they are buying in to a system that has kinks in its armour, then is this really that beneficial?

Russell was also hugely successful at the Bombers, Hawks and Storm and that is a huge tick for him. However, as we know, correlation doesn't equal causation. Potentially, the personnel he had to work with might have played a small/medium/largeish part;
-Bombers: Hird, Lloyd, Fletcher...
-Hawks: Bud, Mitchell, Hodge, Lewis, Roughy...
-Storm: Billy Slater, Cam Smith.. you get my drift.

This is a whole new ball-game for Russell and I think that's why he took on this monumental challenge.. Get a group that is basically at ground zero up to somewhere near elite fitness/conditioning. Time will tell and I'm excited to see in any case. I for one wish they made more personnel changes high performance-wise but I won't judge their output until at least this season is finished with.

Sorry to derail the thread. I should add that I have watched a few games now of Stocker live. Kid is a beast and may well become my new favourite player. Great peg, hard at the contest, good decision maker. Once he's somewhere near conditioned for AFL football, get him in.
 
Have a look at Geelong now - many of the "young guns" are actually mature players who have spent years in the VFL etc and come into the team, know exactly their roles, how to play their positions and with stronger bodies to compete with their opposition.

Apart from someone like Walsh, who has slotted straight in with his elite running and professionalism, most young kids benefit from some extra training and VFL experience to learn the system etc. Stocker will play when when he's ready - lucky we're a patient bunch of supporters.
 
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bluebunz said:
Have a look at Geelong now - many of the "young guns" are actually mature players who have spent years in the VFL etc and come into the team, know exactly their roles, how to play their positions and with stronger bodies to compete with their opposition.

Apart from someone like Walsh, who has slotted straight in with his elite running and professionalism, most young kids benefit from some extra training and VFL experience to learn the system etc. Stocker will play when when he's ready - lucky we're a patient bunch of supporters.
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Loved Charlie Constable in his draft year. He really slipped because of his lack of tank. Geelong gave him a year in the 2s and he has been on fire so far this year. Probably a good comparable with Stocker
 
I also thought Constable would be a perfect complement to Cripps in the middle. Apart from the tank issue (which could be rectified) he had all the tools to make in in the modern game as a tall extractor mid - even more so with the new 6-6-6 rules.
 
Just about every player you draft has at least one deficiency. It's just a matter of whether you believe you can fix said deficiency. Some things are more fixable than others but if you draft a young player who can handle the ball, kick the ball, get the ball, is tough enough and has speed but can't run out of sight on a dark night then I would see this as being fixable. Do that and you would like to believe you have a pretty good player on your hands.
 
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HARKER said:
I think we get all too easily seduced to the new.
We do it every time and we heard the same thing from players when Malthouse arrived. We also sang the same song when Trigg arrived. Buttifant.
Williamson may well be a fan, but what weight does that really carry?

That has nothing to do with what Russell may have brought along or will do, but just that players' observations, on something they don't really know a lot about, shouldn't carry too much weight at all.

I know. This time it is different and maybe it will be, but it may be fair to wait until seasons end to gauge just how much benefit one individual actually brings to the whole....and then if one individual can, how on earth could have we had someone so inferior previously? How does that happen?

BTW - The Hawks still did OK with getting 'crippled' Scully back on track two rounds into the year.
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Don't you find it just slightly ironic that while pontificating your opinion on someone you have never met or dealt with you question the weight of the opinion of someone who has just lost more than a year due to ongoing injury which was exacerbated by mis-management and is working directly with him to get back on track?

"BTW - The Hawks still did OK with getting 'crippled' Scully back on track two rounds into the year." Of course it would be impossible that all the systems and education of assistants that Russell put in place while at the Hawks (remember that one of the big reasons he cited for leaving the hawks was that he had become more of an educator and manager) would still be working for them 6 months after he left.
 
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mr_robot said:
Spot on, Harker. I'm not doubting his ability but I believe the hype and undivided trust in one individual steering the ship 180 degrees from a high performance standpoint is misguided.

The fact that players really rate Russell is fantastic and all, but buy-in from players is only one piece to the overall puzzle. Russell may well be a great communicator and create buy-in from the group. But if they are buying in to a system that has kinks in its armour, then is this really that beneficial?

Russell was also hugely successful at the Bombers, Hawks and Storm and that is a huge tick for him. However, as we know, correlation doesn't equal causation. Potentially, the personnel he had to work with might have played a small/medium/largeish part;
-Bombers: Hird, Lloyd, Fletcher...
-Hawks: Bud, Mitchell, Hodge, Lewis, Roughy...
-Storm: Billy Slater, Cam Smith.. you get my drift.

This is a whole new ball-game for Russell and I think that's why he took on this monumental challenge.. Get a group that is basically at ground zero up to somewhere near elite fitness/conditioning. Time will tell and I'm excited to see in any case. I for one wish they made more personnel changes high performance-wise but I won't judge their output until at least this season is finished with.

Sorry to derail the thread. I should add that I have watched a few games now of Stocker live. Kid is a beast and may well become my new favourite player. Great peg, hard at the contest, good decision maker. Once he's somewhere near conditioned for AFL football, get him in.
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Stocker will come in when he is deemed to be ready for 4 quarter football - a luxury we haven't been able to enjoy as Bolton was forced to play teenagers against men for the last three years. As teh injured players become available over the next month or so - I suspect a few of the previously anointed starting players will go back to VFL duties for specific developmental reasons.

As for Russell commentary:

I can't recall Russell having worked at Melbourne Storm - his resume reads assistant at Essendone (flag) then head of fitness at Port in Adelaide ( flag) then 14 years at Hawthorn ( multiple flags). It is interesting that he enjoys a salutary reputation from senior figures at every Club he has ever been associated with - remarkable for a 'back room' functionary. It is therefore not surprising that Hawthorn were loath to give him leave from his contract to come to Carlton - the affection and respect shown to him by multiple former players - some of whom suggesting that Russell was the best off season trade Carlton had made - underlining what a good operator he has been.

Watching the first three games this year - the biggest change I see is a significantly improved running power in the team, - matching and exceeding at times opposition distance run and average speed. Interestingly, he has been publicly quoted as saying he needs another year and pre-season to get the list to a level of fitness he considers benchmark. It is also interesting for me to note that he (apparently) has had primary say regarding when players are 'ready' or not. I suspect that last year Kreuzer/Kennedy/Lang would already have been played to their detriment - but I am only relying on history to make that statement. Add the fact that Marchnbanlk/Williamson and McCreadie have been asked to modify their training and recovery practises ( including running gaits ) as part of their long term fitness sustainability and indications that what the players were doing previously was actually making their injuries worse - and I conclude that this 'only one individual' might just know more about injury management/recovery and prevention than previous nuff nuff incumbents.

I'll take a proven 20 year performer over some youngster with some some theories he wants to try out - any day. Like the CEO appointment this appointment is an improvement over what we had previously - hopefully the Head of Football Operations is as value added as well.
 

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HARKER said:
I think we get all too easily seduced to the new.
We do it every time and we heard the same thing from players when Malthouse arrived. We also sang the same song when Trigg arrived. Buttifant.
Williamson may well be a fan, but what weight does that really carry?

That has nothing to do with what Russell may have brought along or will do, but just that players' observations, on something they don't really know a lot about, shouldn't carry too much weight at all.

I know. This time it is different and maybe it will be, but it may be fair to wait until seasons end to gauge just how much benefit one individual actually brings to the whole....and then if one individual can, how on earth could have we had someone so inferior previously? How does that happen?

BTW - The Hawks still did OK with getting 'crippled' Scully back on track two rounds into the year.
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The thing is our fitness system was broken. IMO getting the guy in- that SET UP the hawks system was the more full proof way to change our fitness regime than for example getting one of Russel's understudies at the Hawks , to come in and try to do the same. Russell is proven across 3 premiership teams , that he can set up a program that works. Sure the Hawks seem to be motoring on well without AR, but that is a different thing. Being able to emulate and continue on with the original system is a lot harder than establishing the system in the first place IMO
 
bigm386 said:
Loved Charlie Constable in his draft year. He really slipped because of his lack of tank. Geelong gave him a year in the 2s and he has been on fire so far this year. Probably a good comparable with Stocker
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Sooo... we should chase players that slip because of lack of Tank?
 

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