Delisted #14: Slammin' Sam Lonergan - Has announced his retirement

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True. At the time that best 22 was picked there were people out that may well have been in there (eg Browne, Gumby etc). But those people he cites - Abd I'm mainly talking about Lonergan really. NLM's a bit different due to his ability to play more than one role, but Lonergan's a mediocre one trick pony - were in the team more due to last man standing than a huge desire to stuff them in the team. Now that people like Myers, Browne, hell maybe even Lee, are coming back, Lonergan will likely be removed. I think anyone with two eyes open can see that. Lonergan wasn't picked when Myers was fit, now that Myers is back, why would he be now? He's done nothing in the weeks inbetween (and he had a lot of them!) to move in front of Myers


fishardansin said:
Most AFL fans can't see the benefit of players like him and NLM yet the coaches, who's jobs depend on results, pick them.
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I suppose one thing worth mentioning is that those coaches waited and waited to extend Lonergan's contract last year. He was actually in the same position as Dyson, uncontracted even in the days leading up to the PSD. As a result, like Dyson, in the end he only got one year contract. Doesn't seem the coaches have too much faith in him!
 
We've played our best football this year when Lonergan has been playing well. Coincidence? I think not.

I can't believe how many people just don't notice the work he does around the ground. "He didn't get 20 possessions! Delist him!" Unbelievable.

He has set up countless goals from his clearances this year. Behind Jobe, he's the best clearance winner we have. (not to mention his tackling and pressure around the ground)

Sure - if he could get his average touches up to the mid 20's, he'd be an excellent player. As it is, he's still an extremely handy player to have in the side.

In these days of contested footy, defensive pressure, and stoppages, I can not believe people are even thinking of trading a guy like Lonergan.

Oh, and lol @ the post above saying that Browne and Lee coming back means we don't need Lonergan anymore.... yeah, great thinking. Let's trade a guy who has proven he CAN play excellent football at AFL level because we've got 2 guys who haven't even proven themselves at VFL level waiting in the wings. Great thinking. :thumbsu: :rolleyes:
 
How long is too long to carry players that do not demand best 22? Lonergan is 25, turns 26 next March. Lists are not big enough and the salary cap too tight to carry players for too long.

Are you suggesting he is better than Watson, Hocking, Howlett or Myers, as they are the guys he is competing with.

He's had ample opportunity to push people out and claim a spot as his own but his all round game is not good enough. He is a good clearance player but that's where it ends. He offers no flexibility which is required in footy today.
 
gPhonque, dont you know all unproven young players are better than decent afl ones. Oh and Kavanagh is going to be a starting member of our midfield in his second year and needs no development time. I can already see a thread 2 years from now 'Player Watch - Kavanagh "The Knives are out"
 
gPhonque said:
We've played our best football this year when Lonergan has been playing well. Coincidence? I think not.
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Probably is tbh.

gPhonque said:
I can't believe how many people just don't notice the work he does around the ground. "He didn't get 20 possessions! Delist him!" Unbelievable.
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Well see the thing is he doesn't really do work around the ground. He's a stoppage player only. That said, I don't think anyone bar me is throwing up delisting him, and I threw up that idea 3-4 weeks ago in that thread about list changes (Dyson was included too) anyway.

gPhonque said:
He has set up countless goals from his clearances this year.
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No he hasn't.

gPhonque said:
Behind Jobe, he's the best clearance winner we have. (not to mention his tackling and pressure around the ground)
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Hocking when he can actually do it is better. Stanton is better, zaka too. and obviously howlett. Funnily enough, above, you mock people for taking a quantity over quality position ("He didn't get 20 possessions! Delist him!) but here you are, taking a quantity over quality position. In terms of stats, yep he's our second best clearance player. But in terms of quality? They're all the same clearance. He gets the ball, he snaps it 30 meters forward to a 50/50, maybe a 2 on 1 to the other team. They're not very high quality. Sometimes we get lucky and keep the ball, sometimes we're not and we don't. You look at Watson, he can do that quick kick. He can also break the lines, through a hand-ball (to a stanton or zaka), through breaking a tackle, hell sometimes he can just run it forward and kick. I would say most of those other guys (Stanton, zaka, Myers, Howlett etc) are capable of at least doing one of those things. Lonergan almost never does that. It's the same snap kick out. He gets a lot of clearances. Every clearance is not a good clearance.

gPhonque said:
Sure - if he could get his average touches up to the mid 20's, he'd be an excellent player.
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Depends on how it happens. Liam Anthony can do that, he's a terrible player. But just for the record, I'd rather Lonergan get fewer possessions, than him sticking at his current rate/current style of getting them. I'd rather he just put the ball on the ground, and nail the guy on the other team that picks it up, and create another stoppage where Watson or whoever can get the clearance, rather than Lonergan just snapping the ball out to a defensive wall.


gPhonque said:
In these days of contested footy, defensive pressure, and stoppages, I can not believe people are even thinking of trading a guy like Lonergan.
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I can't believe people are thinking of trading him either, but that's mainly because he's not gonna get us anything that lucrative


gPhonque said:
Oh, and lol @ the post above saying that Browne and Lee coming back means we don't need Lonergan anymore.... yeah, great thinking. Let's trade a guy who has proven he CAN play excellent football at AFL level because we've got 2 guys who haven't even proven themselves at VFL level waiting in the wings. Great thinking. :thumbsu: :rolleyes:
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That wasn't necessarily the point. The point was, Lonergan got his games where many players of the same irk were injured/returning from injury/on a modified plan. You know, not available. Luke Davis was one of the few fit, and then he got injured anyway. Lonergan more or less fall into the team. Now that those guys are back (+ Myers) it's fair to say Lonergan is under much more pressure to keep his spot.

It should just be noted that Lee has been named in the bests in every VFL game he's played this season bar one, where he was returning from injury and was rested from sections of the game (still got 20 odd touches though...), and was top 5 in the WAFL B&F last year. So he's probably proven enough @ state level.
 
Dwight Schrute said:
Whilst reffering to the thread title, he would hold next to no value.
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This. If people are calling to trade him, I can't imagine what they are expecting to get in return.
 

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Under rated player who whilst he has his limitations is great in the clinches and capable of putting on a 'clearance display' when on song. Gives us the option to throw Jobe forward and lose the tag, strong body, and may not be worth much on the trade table so Id definitaly keep him and think people may be writing him off prematurely
 
Phone said:
Well see the thing is he doesn't really do work around the ground. He's a stoppage player only. That said, I don't think anyone bar me is throwing up delisting him, and I threw up that idea 3-4 weeks ago in that thread about list changes (Dyson was included too) anyway.
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Averages the second most tackles at Essendon (behind Howlett) and 16th overall in the league. You can't really argue he doesn't do work around the ground.
 
Duckworth said:
This. If people are calling to trade him, I can't imagine what they are expecting to get in return.
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Agree!

Extremely hard worker and unlike most players in the team at the moment is fairly reliable in front of goal. Whilst he's not blessed with height or great skill I believe he has the perfect attitude and imo plays each game as if it was his last and gives his absolute all. On that note I highly doubt his currency is strong therefore would prefer to keep and good honest depth player than a maybe kid or some other clubs headache.
 
Dwight Schrute said:
What?
That only proves his point further that he is merely a stoppage player?
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Depends on where he gets the tackles. Combination of stoppages and in close around the ground I suspect.
 
Duckworth said:
Averages the second most tackles at Essendon (behind Howlett) and 16th overall in the league. You can't really argue he doesn't do work around the ground.
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By around the ground I was thinking more spreading from the contest, playing a role forward while resting, providing a marking option - he's not a bad mark - and what notLonergan follows the ball around very well and he makes most of the contests he's supposed to, and he gets his tackles and touches there. I think those tackles are very effective, less so the touches. He's a bit like a ruckman really. Expect he tackles instead of getting hit outs.
 
Phone said:
By around the ground I was thinking more spreading from the contest, playing a role forward while resting, providing a marking option - he's not a bad mark - and what notLonergan follows the ball around very well and he makes most of the contests he's supposed to, and he gets his tackles and touches there. I think those tackles are very effective, less so the touches. He's a bit like a ruckman really. Expect he tackles instead of getting hit outs.
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Right you are, point well made. Why then is it he hasn't taken that next step in developing his (whole) game? aerobic fitness? reading the play?
 
Very little to be gained by turfing him. Not enough to nearly offset the loss itself, IMO. He's not best 22, but he's more than reasonable depth.
 
I was the one saying trade him, and I also recognise we'd get little interest in a player based trade with a 3rd round pick being be a win. There are clubs out there with lesser clearance/contested ball depth so give him the opportunity if someone wants to give it to him.

Reinvest the draft pick in a kid, we might find a diamond in the rough, give Lonergan's fringe spot to another kid who may offer more if given the opportunity, and free up cap space in the process.

If we can't get a trade done for him do we delist? That's a tougher decision to make as I do want to get something in return and there's also others that should get delisted ahaead of him (that discussion is for another thread)
 
Why is it so hard for a happy medium to exist?

An otherwise sensible discussion about whether Lonergan may/should/will be forced out of the best side because of (lets just say) “perceived” lack of versatility and overall influence has now been subsumed by trade talk. In response, in chime the devotees who say that Lonergan has played very good to excellent football when he is simply playing his role.

Do the balancing act.

Surely it has to be conceded that when a full time midfielder gets between 12 and 15 possessions he’d bloody well want to be high up in the league rankings for tackles and clearances. These other parts of his game offset what is otherwise inadequate for a senior midfielder.

Someone (apologies for forgetting who it was but I’ll guess it was ant555) who understands such things explained that Lonergan is also being used to play (in my words) a zonal role between stoppages which allows us to get extra numbers around the ball to keep contests locked up (which is where our clearance work excels). It was expressed as almost being part of a stop gap measure designed to enable our midfield to be as competitive as possible. This is where Lonergan’s true importance is, as a role player. We can only say that he is doing his job well (as indicated by the high numbers of tackles and clearances). I don’t know that he should be receiving more praise than any other player gets for doing his job well (and not remarkably well).

The rest is assuming that Lonergan is the last ranked of the current inside midfield group of Watson, Hocking, Howlett and himself, and that contrary to exposed form we will make selecting properly balanced midfields a priority.

It ultimately becomes a question of whether the current role he is playing is enough because there are players (with seemingly superior games as ball winning and ball carrying footballers) that are (eventually) going to put pressure on Lonergan’s spot in the side. As it stands Myers has only played a half of the sort of footy he would need to play pretty consistently if the coaches were to depart from the methods devised which have had consistent success all year. It may be that Myers also spent the offseason playing in the same role so then it would come down to a shootout between the two.

I'll admit that I'd drop Lonergan to bring Hibberd back this week and cover Hibberd (fitness) with Dyson and/or NLM (sub) and fill Lonergan's current role with Myers and/or NLM (sub). It does not mean that Lonergan has no place on the list.

I don’t know where in all of this is it suddenly became necessary to trade Lonergan for a third round pick. At minimum the guy is only an injury to 1 of 4 players away from playing (meaning that he is just as likely as not to play) and at a maximum he is in our current best 22 because of his maturity and/or superior durability when compared with the other options.

We don’t need any more kids to be developed in the long term in addition to the minimum that we would look at in this year’s draft. If you look at the skill sets of a number of our young guys you could say that the inside(ish) options for the next 10 to 12 years, in addition to the guys currently doing the job, are Zaharakis, Melksham, Heppell, Browne, Kav, Davies and maybe even O’Brien (speculative call based on body shape and lack of spots in O’Brien’s favoured position). As it stands Lonergan is our 3rd or 4th best pure inside midfield option. We are about 3 years ahead of ourselves if we think that we have the depth required to replace Lonergan’s impact as an inside midfielder now.
 
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