Player Watch #15: Jayden Short

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Spluff

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If anything it means we should play him with Lynch.

Short was dropped and the flag was won. Flawed logic or otherwise its facts
Sure, but it's a meaningless fact. I forgot to put on deodorant and then got laid the other day. Does that mean I should stop wearing deoderant? Correlation does not equal causation.
 

THE_GUN

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Yeah, it's a bit weird. I remember when everyone used to hate on you for being negative. Now in this thread you seem to be the voice of sanity.
Nahh he is still the same but these days he just surfing for "Likes"
bloody ben lennon lover
 

mhill

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One of the problems is both Houli and Short in the same back six...
Except Short is elite both sides of his body and is a great decision maker - under pressure in the home and away. Houli has frankly been poor in every final bar his GF. He killers momentum at a crucial time in that Carlton game, was dreadful against Port and was lamentable against the Pies. In fact, his season in 2018 was really poor and he starts 2019 having to withstand a real challenge to start the year in the 1’s. Admittedly, Short will need to improve but Houli has 8 seasons of footy on him so we can reasonably expect that...
 

theflea

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There's always been an anti-Short faction on this board.
Led with great persistence by the redoubtable 'the flea' if I have been paying proper attention.
Houli was often criticized as having no defensive game when he first started with us.
No one seems to mention that anymore.
I have my opinions, but I think you will find richo is the man. I just think he best skillset, his kicking, isn't as good as what its made out to be.
 

tiggywigs

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I have my opinions, but I think you will find richo is the man. I just think he best skillset, his kicking, isn't as good as what its made out to be.
And your opinions are always worthy of serious consideration.
But with respect to Short, I would characterise your perspective as unusually jaundiced.
Neither my observations or the statistics support your opinion of his kicking.
He also has a flair for interception and counter attack that you seem to disregard.
I agree that Short lacks 'lock down' defensive qualities.
But Houli has shown that hard work and resolve can limit those deficiencies.
Let's hope he is better than we both think.

ps 'Richo' may be the flamethower, but you are the 'Underminer' on this topic. Much more persistent, much more effective IMO.
 
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Houli was often criticized as having no defensive game when he first started with us.
No one seems to mention that anymore.
Oh well.

We dont have 7 or 8 years to wait for Short to improve. The window is open now and we need to be getting the most out of the latter years of Cotchin, Rance, Riewoldt without prioritizing Short in the hope he might stop being tiny and weak with an inability to defend much someday in the distance future

Sure, but it's a meaningless fact. I forgot to put on deodorant and then got laid the other day. Does that mean I should stop wearing deoderant? Correlation does not equal causation.
Broad being a premiership player and Short not is at the least note worthy
 
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Boston tiger

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We finished on top of the ladder with Short playing and leading meters gained etc.
Do people think that I’d he didn’t play against Collingwood that Dusty’s leg gets better and Astbury and who ever else doesn’t get Gastro,Conca stops being Conca and Cox gets smaller ( hell I hope not ).
We wouldn’t have beaten Adelaide with Dusty and Astbury down.

You would take last year until the Collingwood game every time. No Gastro, a fit Dusty etc etc and we are off to the races.
 

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JAKLAUGHING

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They can't all be dour, lock down defenders. Every decent team has at least one half back who is a run-and-gun type; hell the good ones even get frickin' tagged just to highlight their importance.
feckin oath, love to have Johannisen running off the hbline for us...
 

theflea

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And your opinions are always worthy of serious consideration.
But with respect to Short, I would characterise your perspective as unusually jaundiced.
Neither my observations or the statistics support your opinion of his kicking.
He also has a flair for interception and counter attack that you seem to disregard.
I agree that Short lacks 'lock down' defensive qualities.
But Houli has shown that hard work and resolve can limit those deficiencies.
Let's hope he is better than we both think.

ps 'Richo' may be the flamethower, but you are the 'Underminer' on this topic. Much more persistent, much more effective IMO.
Haha you give me too much credit. My view is based on what I see, not because of anyone elses views. I think his kicking can be long and puts the ball in our area's ( and not necessarily pin point) we want, which is why his DE% is high (it is the way its calculated even if you don't hit a target), however his short to medium kicking accuracy isn't as good as its made out to be, and he shanks a lot too. I think he can obviously get better in this area, as well as being a defensive player. I haven't said he cant get better, but imo I would play him on the wing, where we can use this long kicking better to our advantage. I have never said don't play him in the team. I have actually defended Houli in his defensive capabilities, as I don't think he is as bad as made out. But alas this is only 1 mans op.
 

Grrr

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feckin oath, love to have Johannisen running off the hbline for us...
Johannisen's run of half back is very good, but his ball use is very iffy. His Norm Smith was hilarious because my mate had $ on him for it, so we watched him pretty hard and he was ready to tear up his ticket at 3/4 time because he couldn't hit the side of a barn. Would take Short's boot any day over Johannisen's.

By the way, Johannisen isn't much better as a defender either. Nor was Yarran for that matter, Leon Cameron, McLeod, many of the great half backs have been average defenders. (This bit is not intended for you, but others who have been critical).
 

JAKLAUGHING

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Johannisen's run of half back is very good, but his ball use is very iffy. His Norm Smith was hilarious because my mate had $ on him for it, so we watched him pretty hard and he was ready to tear up his ticket at 3/4 time because he couldn't hit the side of a barn. Would take Short's boot any day over Johannisen's.

By the way, Johannisen isn't much better as a defender either. Nor was Yarran for that matter, Leon Cameron, McLeod, many of the great half backs have been average defenders. (This bit is not intended for you, but others who have been critical).
Iffy only cos he has no forwards to kick it to...
 

richoatthedisco

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Johannisen's run of half back is very good, but his ball use is very iffy. His Norm Smith was hilarious because my mate had $ on him for it, so we watched him pretty hard and he was ready to tear up his ticket at 3/4 time because he couldn't hit the side of a barn. Would take Short's boot any day over Johannisen's.

By the way, Johannisen isn't much better as a defender either. Nor was Yarran for that matter, Leon Cameron, McLeod, many of the great half backs have been average defenders. (This bit is not intended for you, but others who have been critical).
JJ's run is a lot further ahead of Short's than Short's kicking is ahead of JJ's. As for defenders, all the players you mention were/are far better than Short in the contest. I would argue Short is just about the worst contested player in the AFL. He gets pushed over by skinny 18-year-olds like Josh Daicos. He reaches timidly into packs with one arm, or he simply stands there and watches.
 

Grrr

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JJ's run is a lot further ahead of Short's than Short's kicking is ahead of JJ's. As for defenders, all the players you mention were/are far better than Short in the contest. I would argue Short is just about the worst contested player in the AFL. He gets pushed over by skinny 18-year-olds like Josh Daicos. He reaches timidly into packs with one arm, or he simply stands there and watches.
Agree that he needs to lift his contested work big time, I'm sure he would also. That is why he is probably not a wingman. Of course Camerson, McLeod and Yarran were better defensively, Short is smaller and needs to build up, they were also champions. And I agree he needs to be more offensive in his running as well, too many receives around the back of the pack and then the big hoof. So on all accounts you are pretty much on the money with Short in his deficiencies. But he offsets it with good run and carry, a great clearing kick and he is pretty sure with ball in hand. Think he has plenty of upside with only 50 odd games under his belt, and nobody else is knocking the door down. I do like Menadue and Markov but we need a good wingman or two.
 

Heisenberg_

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SHORT TO THE WING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Its time short moves to the wing we can now afford to bomb it long to either riewoldt or lynch and our midgets can now actually dine out on the crumbs. Markov or naish or perhaps even menadue can take over shorts old role. On the other wing I wanna see either Ellis or McIntosh or even shai Bolton depending on who's preseason form warrants. Its time we had wingers who can run and carry then bomb the opposition defense into submission. I'm sick of having plodders like grigg or lambert on the wings.
Lambert is better then Short will ever be.
 

theflea

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Agree that he needs to lift his contested work big time, I'm sure he would also. That is why he is probably not a wingman. Of course Camerson, McLeod and Yarran were better defensively, Short is smaller and needs to build up, they were also champions. And I agree he needs to be more offensive in his running as well, too many receives around the back of the pack and then the big hoof. So on all accounts you are pretty much on the money with Short in his deficiencies. But he offsets it with good run and carry, a great clearing kick and he is pretty sure with ball in hand. Think he has plenty of upside with only 50 odd games under his belt, and nobody else is knocking the door down. I do like Menadue and Markov but we need a good wingman or two.
He isn't a defender either.
 

Grrr

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He isn't a defender either.
These days wingmen play much more a midfield type roll due to a much more contested game, unless you have that real running game like Hawthorn's Smith, or are super evasive/clever like our Edwards. Short is not a contesting player. But half backs can be average defensively if they have attacking qualities, like Houli. Short is only just starting his career as a defendere, so yes he isn't much of a defender, but he can improve on that, like Houli.
 

smurfin

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How many wingmen can you have in your team?
Start with Grigg & McIntosh, then there are suggestions that Short & Ellis are better suited there.
Then apparently it is Bolton's natural postition rather than as a small mid.
And I've also heard Balta or C Moore are ideal for wing and second ruck.
Plus Edwards, Lambert, Graham. ie Those that are behind Cotch, Dusty & Prestia as starting in the centre but are midfielders.
 
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