Player Watch #15 Kieren Jack - 250 games!

caesar88

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Just can't agree with this at all, its an absolute misnomer that old footballers are required for on field direction

Not only are the young guys full time footballers who spend hours every week receiving tactical instruction, but any so called on field authority or leadership would be diluted by the fact that the person providing it isn't contributing and probably doesn't deserve to be out there
And then the youngsters have to work twice as hard to make up for what the ageing bloke can’t contribute.

Ask Hawthorn how helpful Roughead’s leadership was late in the game last week when he was being edged out of contests with ease while Gawn, Frost etc were marking everything in sight. Oh wait, they already told us how helpful he was at 6.20 last night.
 

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Tedeski

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They still have 4 players more than us that are 25 or over in this weeks lineup. So it’s not a direct contrast as they have more experience even if they dropped Roughead.
Some of these guys are show casing their football knowledge of the club for us all to see.
Their limitations are based on statistics during & after a game & then they summarise how well a player is going based on individual touches & fail to see why he may be there ahead of an 18 YO that gets 24 touches in the Neafl but lets their opponents run rampant the other way.
 

caesar88

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Some of these guys are show casing their football knowledge of the club for us all to see.
Their limitations are based on statistics during & after a game & then they summarise how well a player is going based on individual touches & fail to see why he may be there ahead of an 18 YO that gets 24 touches in the Neafl but lets their opponents run rampant the other way.
You just described Kieren Jack with your last eight words.

And please don’t throw me on the statistics scrap-heap. My main metric for judging footy has always been and always will be my eyes and what they see.
 

LukeParkerno1

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.......and based on who the heck can he trust more than Kizza to do the defensive stuff as well, then yes, he is untouchable.
All very well Rowbottom coming in & getting 5 more touches than Kizza but what is his opponent doing the other way?
Yeah we get it, you don't like Horse so naturally you won't like any single decision he makes so time to stop repeating things as we need all the experience possible in the senior team ATM & unfortunely for the haters, Horse trusts Kizza to do what he wants while Rowbottom & co can get their defensive stuff right at the lower level & earn their bloody games like Kizza did when he was at the same stage.
So I’m assuming Jack had a lot of tackles last week...

Looks at stats...

Ummmm hang on, nope
 

Tedeski

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Interesting contrast to the Hawks who have sent Roughead back to the reserves to find form
Nothing alike. If you can't see the difference then you can't be helped. Hawks for starters have enough senior experience on all lines. They also have young Mitchell Lewis dominating the reserves for the whole season & deserving of his spot in the senior team making the Hawks too top heavy against a very mobile GWS defence if they played both Mitchell & Roughy. So Roughy out! A totally different scenario but lets just make stuff up to suit our Horse loves Kizza pantomime you guys are putting on.
 

caesar88

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Nothing alike. If you can't see the difference then you can't be helped. Hawks for starters have enough senior experience on all lines. They also have young Mitchell Lewis dominating the reserves for the whole season & deserving of his spot in the senior team making the Hawks too top heavy against a very mobile GWS defence if they played both Mitchell & Roughy. So Roughy out! A totally different scenario but lets just make stuff up to suit our Horse loves Kizza pantomime you guys are putting on.
Well we sound like we’re in a pantomime, you guys sound like Kellyann Conway. Now what?
 

Caj

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Some of these guys are show casing their football knowledge of the club for us all to see.
Their limitations are based on statistics during & after a game & then they summarise how well a player is going based on individual touches & fail to see why he may be there ahead of an 18 YO that gets 24 touches in the Neafl but lets their opponents run rampant the other way.
Who was Rose's opponent on Saturday?
 

TheMase

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So your suggestion is to leave a bloke in there who is totally cooked just because he’s somewhat experienced. How about play guys who get the ball more often?
What mysterious players would these be?

I will accept Rowbottom as an answer, though he is 18 and is clearly following a development path put in place for him.

How about Clarke? He gets the ball more often... possibly even worse on how he uses the ball.

The well is nearly empty for players who “get the ball more often”. How about Fox? 37 disposals and 3 goals in NEAFL, selected in seniors and has 7 touches (not criticising Fox just making a point).
 

LukeParkerno1

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What mysterious players would these be?

I will accept Rowbottom as an answer, though he is 18 and is clearly following a development path put in place for him.

How about Clarke? He gets the ball more often... possibly even worse on how he uses the ball.

The well is nearly empty for players who “get the ball more often”. How about Fox? 37 disposals and 3 goals in NEAFL, selected in seniors and has 7 touches (not criticising Fox just making a point).
Rowbottom.

There’s the answer and he should be playing. He got dropped for less possessions than what Jack had. Double standards.
 

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TheMase

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Rowbottom.

There’s the answer and he should be playing. He got dropped for less possessions than what Jack had. Double standards.
Should he?

I mean if he has areas of his game the coaches want him to work on, it would be far easier to make those tweaks at the lower level with more time and space.

Not going to get myself concerned that an 18 year old will yo-yo a bit between seniors in NEAFL in his first season.

This stuff is easy for us to say when we aren’t aware of his training loads, his bodies capabilities, how sore he is after games and what is being asked of him of areas to improve to become a more well rounded footballer.
 

TheMase

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5 isn’t that great when all he had was 8 possessions
I specifically commented on you suggesting he had no tackles, which was not the case.

How about McCartin? 8 disposals, 1 tackle. Fox 7 disposals, 2 tackles. Florent 7 disposals and 4 tackles?

Should all these guys get dropped too?
 

Mick Oxlong

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Should he?

I mean if he has areas of his game the coaches want him to work on, it would be far easier to make those tweaks at the lower level with more time and space.

Not going to get myself concerned that an 18 year old will yo-yo a bit between seniors in NEAFL in his first season.

This stuff is easy for us to say when we aren’t aware of his training loads, his bodies capabilities, how sore he is after games and what is being asked of him of areas to improve to become a more well rounded footballer.
You could be talking about Jack here.
 

caesar88

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I specifically commented on you suggesting he had no tackles, which was not the case.

How about McCartin? 8 disposals, 1 tackle. Fox 7 disposals, 2 tackles. Florent 7 disposals and 4 tackles?

Should all these guys get dropped too?
Fox should have been.

The other two had, up to that game, been in better form than Jack and are part of the future, so I could easily wear their down games.
 

TheMase

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Fox should have been.

The other two had, up to that game, been in better form than Jack and are part of the future, so I could easily wear their down games.
Yes and no. I mean Tom has played the last two weeks forward for a total return of 14 disposals, 2 goals, 3 tackles. Not much better than Jack.

Certainly I am not advocating for McCartin or Florent to be dropped at all, and you’re right that we need to get games into them for the future (as well as Rowbottom but I am by expecting him to play all senior level for a kid straight out of the draft), but Jack would add more than his statistics suggest, particularly with Buddy missing and a young forward line.

Anyway, time to move on! :)
 

LukeParkerno1

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I specifically commented on you suggesting he had no tackles, which was not the case.

How about McCartin? 8 disposals, 1 tackle. Fox 7 disposals, 2 tackles. Florent 7 disposals and 4 tackles?

Should all these guys get dropped too?
McCartin is a KPP and Florent has his one poor game. Would have zero issues if Fox was dropped somlong as Jack was too
 

TheMase

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McCartin is a KPP and Florent has his one poor game. Would have zero issues if Fox was dropped somlong as Jack was too
And?

Reid had 8 touches too but also 8 tackles? Everyone seems to want him dropped.

We have very little in reserve. Replacing Fox and Jack with say any of Rose, Rowbottom, Clarke isn’t going to give us significant improvement but will reduce on field leadership.

Florent has had a few average to poor games this year, but like you I can wear that as he is still developing and making a great contribution than anyone sitting (fit) on the sidelines would.
 

caesar88

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And?

Reid had 8 touches too but also 8 tackles? Everyone seems to want him dropped.

We have very little in reserve. Replacing Fox and Jack with say any of Rose, Rowbottom, Clarke isn’t going to give us significant improvement but will reduce on field leadership.

Florent has had a few average to poor games this year, but like you I can wear that as he is still developing and making a great contribution than anyone sitting (fit) on the sidelines would.
Rowbottom would offer more than Jack. And Rose has better form than Jack and deserves a senior spot more, even if I am no Rose enthusiast.
 
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