Player Watch #18: Alex Rance

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JAKLAUGHING

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Let me make myself very clear.

Anyone who wants to attack oppo posters for no reason at all is copping days.

No need for that ********, we are better than that.
I agree...that mindless slagging (I've done it too! :rolleyes: ) is uncalled for and old school stuff, Michaels is totally right here!
We are better than that!
 

Cotcho

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How is it 2019 and we still have such a crude and barbaric method for fixing knees. I suspect we will look back on this in a similar way we look back on drilling holes in heads and bloodletting. How have we not come up with a way to get nanobots in there to repair the damaged ligament or test tube grown super strong ligaments that can be inserted into the knee stronger than before.
 

Shazza_

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Rance has said he'll be back for finals. But, whether the fitness team agree is another thing. Still he's in the conversation, which is great. I'd love him back because even if he plays loose man he'd add so much.

And he's a legend. This would only make the legend bigger.
dimma will throw him into the middle again lol
 

Cdog71

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It’s got me stuffed why there are so many acl injuries in footy compared to other sports and the other thing, if you consider the amount of players and percentage of acl’s
Your more than likely to do a knee more than once in your sporting life compared to the percentage who don’t do one at all.
Makes me wonder if it’s the amount of straight line drills as a junior compared to BBall ,Hockey and Soccer
You can also see it in the womens footy the amount there’s been last few years
 

Michaels

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It’s got me stuffed why there are so many acl injuries in footy compared to other sports and the other thing, if you consider the amount of players and percentage of acl’s
Your more than likely to do a knee more than once in your sporting life compared to the percentage who don’t do one at all.
Makes me wonder if it’s the amount of straight line drills as a junior compared to BBall ,Hockey and Soccer
You can also see it in the womens footy the amount there’s been last few years
The amount of ACL injuries in AFL compared to other sports comes down to how dynamic & explosive AFL is vs those other sports.

A lot more jumping & landing with contact, twisting, turning sharply.

The sheer force players put through their legs with the movements required is huge.

Unfortunately I don't think we will see a decline in these injuries anytime soon :-(
 

Shazza_

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How is it 2019 and we still have such a crude and barbaric method for fixing knees. I suspect we will look back on this in a similar way we look back on drilling holes in heads and bloodletting. How have we not come up with a way to get nanobots in there to repair the damaged ligament or test tube grown super strong ligaments that can be inserted into the knee stronger than before.
they make too much $$$ out of people re doing em

same as chemo which kills far more people than it saves. cant have too many people on their death beds coming back to life

the medical industry is satanic
 

Dr Tigris

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It’s got me stuffed why there are so many acl injuries in footy compared to other sports and the other thing, if you consider the amount of players and percentage of acl’s
Your more than likely to do a knee more than once in your sporting life compared to the percentage who don’t do one at all.
Makes me wonder if it’s the amount of straight line drills as a junior compared to BBall ,Hockey and Soccer
You can also see it in the womens footy the amount there’s been last few years
Rance's knee was such a simple movement. Jumped up and down in a fairly straight line. Nothing he hasn't done 10,000 times before. And it went 'pop'. Not sure how you train for that. Jack at least got spun round in s circle by Gawn. Bad luck.

Guys getting their ankle's stepped on, Short having some idiot land on top of him. Freak accidents. And we've had a decades worth in one half of one season.

:poo::mad:
702078
 

Cotcho

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It’s got me stuffed why there are so many acl injuries in footy compared to other sports and the other thing, if you consider the amount of players and percentage of acl’s
Your more than likely to do a knee more than once in your sporting life compared to the percentage who don’t do one at all.
Makes me wonder if it’s the amount of straight line drills as a junior compared to BBall ,Hockey and Soccer
You can also see it in the womens footy the amount there’s been last few years
I heard on a sport science podcast that the number of ACL's that we get here in Australia is much much higher than in Europe even when controlling for the sport type. This article discusses overall numbers I think https://www.scimex.org/newsfeed/australia-tops-the-world-for-rates-of-common-sports-injury

I think it has something to do with how we prepare our sporting fields and how hard they are compared to in Europe. With the attention towards concussion etc I'm amazed the AFLPA haven't come out and demanded some sort of ground preparation standard. A ground penetration test or something similar should be conducted before each game.
 

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Themanbun

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How is it 2019 and we still have such a crude and barbaric method for fixing knees. I suspect we will look back on this in a similar way we look back on drilling holes in heads and bloodletting. How have we not come up with a way to get nanobots in there to repair the damaged ligament or test tube grown super strong ligaments that can be inserted into the knee stronger than before.
They've tried a few things but they have to keep coming back to the tried and true. There was LARS of course, and some Hong Kong surgeon tried a new method which involved two tunnels and multiple graft vectors to try and more closely mimic the ACL. Both have turned out to be huge fails in terms of graft failure.

Agree though that if the money and funding were there, and the ethics clearance of course, we'd be way further ahead. Instead now you've got elite athletes spending 1/10th of their career on the sidelines (maybe even more) and the average Joe spending incredible amounts of time off work and incapacitated.
 

theflea

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Yeah, the only reason I came across this conversation between surgeons and physios was because I had mine reconstructed back in Feb. The bloke who did mine and the physio don't have an official Richmond affiliation, but a couple of other clubs here in Melbourne.

Their concerns were basically exactly as you said. Elite athletes are always going to have muscle conditioning up to scratch not long after the surgery, which makes them feel 'ready' to go (which is why they were showing concern at the discussion around being ahead of 'schedule', being that the graft itself is a great unknown and thus doesn't really have a schedule, so to speak). They theorise that when graft is harvested from the hamstring it is super strong at that point immediately after the surgery (but swelling and proprioception mean you still feel s**t). Then between 6-12 weeks it weakens incredibly, then from about 5-6 months onwards it gradually gets stronger as it lays down its own collagen before theoretically reaching a peak at 24 months (ready for return to sport after 9-12 months).

I piped up because I was interested in whether or not Alex would make it back, and since he was the topic of their conversation, they gave me a little bit of the 'history' of ACL reconstructive surgery and how they used to actually get blokes back on the park in 4-5 months quite regularly. I thought that maybe Richmond supporters would want that relayed so that they could make a better assessment for themselves on the realistic chances of Rance getting back in time for a finals tilt or if it does happen, the risk appetite for doing so.
Exactly as i was told.
 

theflea

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The one noticable difference to what you just posted to Rance is the type of graft used, which plays a big part in this I suspect.

It appears (not 100% confirmed) that a quadricep graft was used, not the hamstring graft.

This was a huge part of the reason why Goldsack was able to get back earlier than expected IMO.

I have had both the hamstring and a LARS reconstruction and that weakness is definitely felt from the hamstring graft for a long long time.

The LARS graft however felt very strong straight away.

Obviously this isnt a LARS situation but just showing that the type of graft used can definitely play a part in the timeline I suspect.
cant compare a lars technique to a normal tendon graft. However AFAIK a tendon is a tendon is a tendon, so this theory about hamstring or other still must follow tendon pathology practice.
 

theflea

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How is it 2019 and we still have such a crude and barbaric method for fixing knees. I suspect we will look back on this in a similar way we look back on drilling holes in heads and bloodletting. How have we not come up with a way to get nanobots in there to repair the damaged ligament or test tube grown super strong ligaments that can be inserted into the knee stronger than before.
Mate if you have had bad backs, knees etc you would know the docs are still very much in the dark.
 

theflea

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The amount of ACL injuries in AFL compared to other sports comes down to how dynamic & explosive AFL is vs those other sports.

A lot more jumping & landing with contact, twisting, turning sharply.

The sheer force players put through their legs with the movements required is huge.

Unfortunately I don't think we will see a decline in these injuries anytime soon :-(
There are s**tloads in netball too.
 

theflea

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I heard on a sport science podcast that the number of ACL's that we get here in Australia is much much higher than in Europe even when controlling for the sport type. This article discusses overall numbers I think https://www.scimex.org/newsfeed/australia-tops-the-world-for-rates-of-common-sports-injury

I think it has something to do with how we prepare our sporting fields and how hard they are compared to in Europe. With the attention towards concussion etc I'm amazed the AFLPA haven't come out and demanded some sort of ground preparation standard. A ground penetration test or something similar should be conducted before each game.
Euro sports are lead by soccer, which likes to have wet grounds, not something we like. This means more give in the ground, and the sport is more straight line and less 360 degree play.
 

ARES

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Yep, they went through all the options with me and apparently use quad graft for athletes who need to retain sprint speed. I just went with what's most commonly used so fewer complications. But the graft itself still goes through the process of decay then laying collagen to strengthen which occurs independent of the muscle gain.
Did some reading, seems like the quadricep graft is larger in size and has more collagen present of all the graft options.

Either way, 9 months min seems the safest approach but if Tigers are in finals, can see Rance putting his boots on.

Appreciate your input in this discussion, how did you do your acl? And more importantly, how are you tracking?
 

Oprah From Tigerland

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Richmond not prepared to risk Alex Rance, despite stunning progress on knee injury


Richmond says it is not prepared to risk Alex Rance’s future for a short-term premiership tilt despite his astonishing ACL recovery so far.


The Tigers have left open the possibility he could return this year, with Rance completing sprints last week.


Coach Damien Hardwick conceded the star defender was recovering at warp speed.


But leading medical experts such as Dr Peter Larkins have warned that an ACL graft is at its weakest around the time Rance would be returning after 25 weeks.


Richmond football boss Neil Balme said yesterday the club had to allowed Rance to push his recovery given he was determined to play again this year.


But he said the decision would be made after consultation between the club’s surgeon and medical staff.


“The medicos will talk to his surgeon and really it will be a question of the risk if he plays as opposed to the risk of him playing next year and if there is any significant difference he won’t be playing,” Balme said.


“That’s only my opinion and we don’t want to put it out of the question because he needs to strive for something.”


Rance’s contract was last year extended to 2021, with the five-time All Australian easily able to play well into his 30s if his motivation levels stay high.


He had at one stage considered retiring before his most recent contract but with his pace and intercepting skills he could easily play on like Matthew Scarlett, who retired at 33.


Rance went down in Round 1 and while Tyson Goldsack and Dale Morris have made miracle returns from ACL ruptures neither had anything to lose if their knees buckled again given they were in the final years of their contracts.


Shane Edwards told the Herald Sun after the win over St Kilda he was amazed by Rance’s recovery.


“When you watch him train you can get carried away because he looks so good. I wouldn’t be surprised if he has taken his rehab to another level and comes back but at the same time you don’t want to sacrifice an Alex Rance again, so they are big decisions.”


Jack Riewoldt told his Balls and Bumpers podcast last week the club would have to have “adult conversations” with Rance given the speed of his recovery.


Riewoldt is expected to miss one more game against Gold Coast at Metricon Stadium this weekend.


But he told Fox Footy last Friday he had ramped up his match simulation training dramatically that day and was making strong progress.
 

Nobby

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Rance's knee was such a simple movement. Jumped up and down in a fairly straight line. Nothing he hasn't done 10,000 times before. And it went 'pop'. Not sure how you train for that. Jack at least got spun round in s circle by Gawn. Bad luck.

Guys getting their ankle's stepped on, Short having some idiot land on top of him. Freak accidents. And we've had a decades worth in one half of one season.

:poo::mad:View attachment 702078
Turning as he came down and rolling his ankle on the back of McKays leg was just a freak situation, put him 2cm back and chances are the knee doesn't go pop. Can't train for bad luck, but hopefully they find something soon which minimises the chances as we lose too many players to ACLs
 

Themanbun

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Did some reading, seems like the quadricep graft is larger in size and has more collagen present of all the graft options.

Either way, 9 months min seems the safest approach but if Tigers are in finals, can see Rance putting his boots on.

Appreciate your input in this discussion, how did you do your acl? And more importantly, how are you tracking?
Cricket mate. Running into bowl, big pop. Complete ACL tear, dislocation, meniscus damage.

I'm tracking well. 4 months post op now and muscle size is now almost equal between both legs, pushing some major weights in the gym, and running up to 5km, with light agility work. Still doesn't feel right though and probably won't for a few years, but now it's just patience to make sure I don't overdo it!
 

tiger_tough

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Not really anything new in the article in the Herald Sun. Basically 'If it's too risky he won't play'. Larkins says around the 25 week mark is when it's at its weakest but that would be the 25th week of a traditional 12 month recovery would it not? From all reports he's way ahead of that. He always seems to go worst case Larkins.

Obviously the surgeon will know best and will advise the club medicos accordingly. It's good for alex to have a goal.
 

Themanbun

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Not really anything new in the article in the Herald Sun. Basically 'If it's too risky he won't play'. Larkins says around the 25 week mark is when it's at its weakest but that would be the 25th week of a traditional 12 month recovery would it not? From all reports he's way ahead of that. He always seems to go worst case Larkins.
He's well ahead in terms of muscle mass. The graft itself will weaken at about that point regardless of how well he's tracking.
 

tugga

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Cricket mate. Running into bowl, big pop. Complete ACL tear, dislocation, meniscus damage.

I'm tracking well. 4 months post op now and muscle size is now almost equal between both legs, pushing some major weights in the gym, and running up to 5km, with light agility work. Still doesn't feel right though and probably won't for a few years, but now it's just patience to make sure I don't overdo it!
Just do what I do and come off two steps these days.
 

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