Roast 18 years of no Grand Final appearances - proven finals failures

[Iron]

Stringer is twice as talented as someone like Douglas or Mackay though and still learning his own game. You can afford a few of those in your side every now and then, even if they're not in career best form because they have UPSIDE.

I agree. My comment had nothing to do with the crows though.

 

[DD#23]

I agree. My comment had nothing to do with the crows though.

fair enough, the discussion was brought up by comparing some of their decisions to ours and that's what I was adding to.

 

[Tex200]

Playing the same players? Even you know that isn't true. Last years semi is hardly comparable given the circumstances surrounding 2015.

If you were coaching, how could you not back in guys who have won 16 games during the regular season? I think he would have loved to pick Menzel, Hampton, Knight and even the Seed on more occasions this year, but injuries and good form with the AFL side made that tough. Walshy always thought this list would contend by 2017, I believe that will ring true.

I'm very happy with the list, and am hopeful we can land a decent midfielder either via trading or the draft. If we don't make top 4 next season it will be a failure, no doubt about it. I think top 2 should be very much expected.

So if "circumstances" we're the reason we didn't turn up in Q1 of that semi (which I don't buy) then what is the excuse for a replica Q1 this year?

Year after year after year we pump games into senior players who cannot stand up in finals. When will this lesson be learned? A long line of coaches seduced by minor round victories, a line Pyke now joins.

Each and every week the selections we dread kept happening in spite of what history tells us.

No one, I repeat, no one has ever had the courage to rule a line under these guys to move forward. When is someone going to realise we need players who elevate themselves in finals, not disappear because it's harder than minor round football.

You have a kid like Knight who, young as he is, has proven himself a big game player. Forget the injury, he was fit and firing by R23 and yet he wallows in the 2's while our so called senior players stink up their umpteenth final.

The AFC never learns from history - and who really has the confidence that the hold our senior duds have over tenure will be broken up anytime soon

 

[GrommoT]

... I'm very happy with the list, and am hopeful we can land a decent midfielder either via trading or the draft. If we don't make top 4 next season it will be a failure, no doubt about it. I think top 2 should be very much expected.

I think top 2 for us would be rather optimistic. Of teams I think that are on the improvement curve, Sydney & GWS are probably a level above us while we're probably on similar level with Eagles, Bulldogs, Hawks and Cats (?), then not far behind would be Demons and maybe Saints.

 

[creme_fraiche]

I completely agree with those bemoaning the conservativism, but a question I've been pondering.

How much of the 'conservative nature' comes down to a cultural issue and how much comes down to lazy coaching (particularly on Campo and Clarke)?

If you're a lazy coach then why would you want to bring in an individual with less than 30 games experience? He doesn't know your system all that well, he's barely been exposed to it at AFL level and he could potentially make mistakes which expose a lack of coaching awareness/development and result in cries of 'why was he selected - wasn't ready etc' which then turns up the heat on said coach. Who cares if he has 'potential' to develop into an A grader if he's currently performing at a C- level and requires some actual work.

You'd much rather see the known quantity 200 game C+ player who understands your system, will be held personally accountable for his own utensil ups by the media due to sheer experience and will often flat track bully the rubbish sides thus inflating his reputation.

The beauty of Phil was that you felt at all times he was the man in control. He was dictating all aspects of the club and you genuinely believed that if we stuck the course we'd get there. I'm not even sure the Don has been afforded that same level of control and that concerns me.

We're in dire need of an off field clean out. Administrators, board members and coaches should be put on notice with Campo and Clarke public enemies number 1 and 2. If this club doesn't start asking the hard questions off field that need to be asked then I'm preparing to mentally check out.

 

[GROTTO]

It's still a message to him and his teammates. It's a step ahead of us. We use those games to run out of form seniors into form and then wonder where it goes wrong when a hungry Eagles turn up to play.

Top post. We give games to those seniors and then when they deliver against s**t teams and we win, the selectors pat themselves on the back and don't change the winning team.

 

[DD#23]

I completely agree with those bemoaning the conservativism, but a question I've been pondering.

How much of the 'conservative nature' comes down to a cultural issue and how much comes down to lazy coaching (particularly on Campo and Clarke)?

If you're a lazy coach then why would you want to bring in an individual with less than 30 games experience? He doesn't know your system all that well, he's barely been exposed to it at AFL level and he could potentially make mistakes which expose a lack of coaching awareness/development and result in cries of 'why was he selected - wasn't ready etc' which then turns up the heat on said coach. Who cares if he has 'potential' to develop into an A grader if he's currently performing at a C- level and requires some actual work.

You'd much rather see the known quantity 200 game C+ player who understands your system, will be held personally accountable for his own utensil ups by the media due to sheer experience and will often flat track bully the rubbish sides thus inflating his reputation.

The beauty of Phil was that you felt at all times he was the man in control. He was dictating all aspects of the club and you genuinely believed that if we stuck the course we'd get there. I'm not even sure the Don has been afforded that same level of control and that concerns me.

We're in dire need of an off field clean out. Administrators, board members and coaches should be put on notice with Campo and Clarke public enemies number 1 and 2. If this club doesn't start asking the hard questions off field that need to be asked then I'm preparing to mentally check out.

hmm, I think to be fair to Don he and Walsh took a similar early approach in NOT tearing down and stamping all over the ideas that came before. (Which is why they both HAD to be able to appoint more of their own assistants, ******* Campo and Clarke have sat their under too many head coaches). I mean Campo would have been chirping in their ears all preseason about how good has Mackay been training, etc etc and it makes it hard to leave them out Round 1 because you'd basically be telling the whole coaches box you think they're a joke (no doubt why we copped VB Round 1).

Walsh I feel was about to say enough is enough and start putting lines through players but we tragically never got to see what he might have done. Pyke I think is just a liiittle bit more cautious and we were running pretty well at one stage which might have made it a little bit more difficult. I'm desperately hoping with one whole season of data under his belt that he's ready to get the red pen out and put it through several players and assistants and start building things exactly the way he wants them.

looking at Pyke's resume you'd have to expect him not to cop other people ******* up his master plan but he seems prepared to be patient. Just have to hope he's as good as we all thought he could be when he was appointed and we start seeing some positive changes.

 

[Wood_Duck]

Remember Trigg telling us that our draft sanctions wouldnt hurt us because we got Laird and Hartigan in the rookie draft?

 

[maxlilly]

Remember Trigg telling us that our draft sanctions wouldnt hurt us because we got Laird and Hartigan in the rookie draft?

But more importantly, our website hits are up

 

[fabs33]

The 16 wins argument has gotten used quite a bit however it's not how you drive but how you arrive. It's finals that matter and everything else is just preparation for finals. So we have to ask ourselves questions like; would we have been better off dropping Mackay for a few games and debuting Wigg? Would we have lost much by having Douglas during his worst period make way for CEY? Was it really necessary that VB play against Gold Coast? Would any of these changes have cost a win, and even if they did would it matter anyway? It's like our coaches have never heard of the concept of pruning in gardening.

We started the year in a brave fashion which was great, two debuts in round one and dropped a senior player as quickly as round two, but as the season wore on we defaulted back to the same AFC of old. Right now I'm wondering if this is the effect of Craig's legacy on our culture that has enveloped the entire club to it's core, and will take time to exorcise, or are there elements of our coaching staff that need to be moved on because they've become too friendly with the players they've known for many years.

I'm hoping for something significant in trade week and I don't mean like trading Lyon's for draft picks, we need something with more immediate impact. I'm also hoping for some changes in our coaching staff, specifically Campo and Clarke. Lastly I want us to be more ruthless at selection meetings, because our current way of doing things is getting us nowhere, and I suspect it breeds complacency and a lack competitiveness both internally and against the opposition.

 

[CrowsB4hoes]

Bulldogs have done 2 things we haven't in recent years.

1. Farmed off a couple club champions on Griffin and Cooney because they could see they would be holding the team back

2. Went after, and got, a big fish in Boyd. Although jury is out on whether it will end up being a good move, the intent has resonated throughout the whole club.

Make no mistake, this is a club which is serious in its pursuit of a premiership.

 

[pjcrows]

Bulldogs have done 2 things we haven't in recent years.

1. Farmed off a couple club champions on Griffin and Cooney because they could see they would be holding the team back

2. Went after, and got, a big fish in Boyd. Although jury is out on whether it will end up being a good move, the intent has resonated throughout the whole club.

Make no mistake, this is a club which is serious in its pursuit of a premiership.

They've also finished at the bottom end of the ladder and landed elite midfield talent.

 

[DD#23]

Bulldogs have done 2 things we haven't in recent years.

1. Farmed off a couple club champions on Griffin and Cooney because they could see they would be holding the team back

2. Went after, and got, a big fish in Boyd. Although jury is out on whether it will end up being a good move, the intent has resonated throughout the whole club.

Make no mistake, this is a club which is serious in its pursuit of a premiership.

point 1. is huge, may have ruffled feathers at the time but didn't hold them back long.

on point 2. imagine if Boyd was actually playing the way people thought he might, or if they actually spent big on someone good?

 

[Drummond]

They've also finished at the bottom end of the ladder and landed elite midfield talent.

And have a truly outstanding coach. The way they shut down the Giants run from defence last night was telling. The Dogs base their game on skills, quick hands and lots of pressure. Great thing about AFL is teams figure you out quick smart; so the Dogs next year will be hunted. They look set for a window of success though, however not entirely convinced they have the forward line to win a flag.

 

[DD#23]

They've also finished at the bottom end of the ladder and landed elite midfield talent.

people love coming back to this one, what's common among the Bulldogs and GWS at the moment? and Hawthorn and Geelong in the recent past?

the answer is high picks and elite midfield talent.

now spot the difference between what those clubs have done and what we do. It shouldn't be difficult.

we have an amazing recruiting department and one of the most loyal supporter bases in the whole comp... SURELY we could afford more than anyone else to bottom out for a couple of years and NAIL our selections, and setup not just a tilt at a flag but sustained success over a long period.

instead we seem content with making the 8 where anything can happen, shame Danger, Tippett, Davis, Gunston, etc didn't see things the same way.

 

[Tex200]

point 1. is huge, may have ruffled feathers at the time but didn't hold them back long.

on point 2. imagine if Boyd was actually playing the way people thought he might, or if they actually spent big on someone good?

Boyd has been very good this finals series.

Here again, kid that was playing seconds this year - nothing special in minor round, elevated his game in finals.

He may not have kicked goals but he has made strong contests and nullified Mummy by himself Sat. Huge effort.

The intent of the Dogs in clearing out their captain of all people speaks volumes.

 

[FR0GGY]

Boyd has been very good this finals series.

Here again, kid that was playing seconds this year - nothing special in minor round, elevated his game in finals.

He may not have kicked goals but he has made strong contests and nullified Mummy by himself Sat. Huge effort.

The intent of the Dogs in clearing out their captain of all people speaks volumes.

agree re boyd, but didn't griffen want out because of mcartney?

 

[Tex200]

agree re boyd, but didn't griffen want out because of mcartney?

Not sure, possibly.

I thought it was more the dogs stamping on senior player disharmony.

In any event - watershed moment

 

[FR0GGY]

Not sure, possibly.

I thought it was more the dogs stamping on senior player disharmony.

In any event - watershed moment

thought there was stories he said it was him or me, ended up being both.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

They get Crameri back. Not that he's a great player by any stretch but just another bloke who can pop up with a couple of goals. Spreads the responsibility off Dickson and Stringer.

They didn't make quite as much fuss about losing him as some clubs.

 

[GreyCrow]

thought there was stories he said it was him or me, ended up being both.

Yes , Griffen said me or the highway. They chose to get rid of Griffen as they had considered keeping McArteney. Once they realized Griffen was actually right they went with the safe option of not having egg on their face and asking Griffen back.

 

[SmegHead]

people love coming back to this one, what's common among the Bulldogs and GWS at the moment? and Hawthorn and Geelong in the recent past?

the answer is high picks and elite midfield talent.

now spot the difference between what those clubs have done and what we do. It shouldn't be difficult.

we have an amazing recruiting department and one of the most loyal supporter bases in the whole comp... SURELY we could afford more than anyone else to bottom out for a couple of years and NAIL our selections, and setup not just a tilt at a flag but sustained success over a long period.

instead we seem content with making the 8 where anything can happen, shame Danger, Tippett, Davis, Gunston, etc didn't see things the same way.

I don't disagree with this, and a few years ago I would have argued that bottoming out and picking up a couple of top 5 picks would do us good in the long term. However we run the risk of putting a lot of time and effort into a top pick likely from Victoria, only to have them be lured back as they reach their peak and us be left with the solid B grade team we currently have. I don't believe we have a culture around the club to be able to keep those players, especially if we are in the middle of a cycle that has us finishing near bottom.

 

[DD#23]

I don't disagree with this, and a few years ago I would have argued that bottoming out and picking up a couple of top 5 picks would do us good in the long term. However we run the risk of putting a lot of time and effort into a top pick likely from Victoria, only to have them be lured back as they reach their peak and us be left with the solid B grade team we currently have. I don't believe we have a culture around the club to be able to keep those players, especially if we are in the middle of a cycle that has us finishing near bottom.

surely if we could present a plan, a strategy to show that we know where we're going we could hang onto players.

I honestly get the feeling that this middling approach we've had for so long and lack of a coherent vision to take us forward could well be responsible for losing some of our players.

 

[SmegHead]

surely if we could present a plan, a strategy to show that we know where we're going we could hang onto players.

I honestly get the feeling that this middling approach we've had for so long and lack of a coherent vision to take us forward could well be responsible for losing some of our players.

That's exactly it, I don't believe we currently have that vision. Port obviously were able to show Boak something concrete about where they were heading to convince him to stay, and they were 3 steps away from complete collapse. We weren't able to do the same with Tippet or Dangerfield (as Danger apparently made up his mind long before the start of last season, the loss of Walsh had little to do with it).

 

[Big Crow]

So if "circumstances" we're the reason we didn't turn up in Q1 of that semi (which I don't buy) then what is the excuse for a replica Q1 this year?

Year after year after year we pump games into senior players who cannot stand up in finals. When will this lesson be learned? A long line of coaches seduced by minor round victories, a line Pyke now joins.

Each and every week the selections we dread kept happening in spite of what history tells us.

No one, I repeat, no one has ever had the courage to rule a line under these guys to move forward. When is someone going to realise we need players who elevate themselves in finals, not disappear because it's harder than minor round football.

You have a kid like Knight who, young as he is, has proven himself a big game player. Forget the injury, he was fit and firing by R23 and yet he wallows in the 2's while our so called senior players stink up their umpteenth final.

The AFC never learns from history - and who really has the confidence that the hold our senior duds have over tenure will be broken up anytime soon

Good post. Everything seems to be based on winning in the minor round and it doesn't change.

We need to sway the mix towards building to win finals and being more aggressive to get experience into new players in the senior side. That goes for style of play as well as personnel.

What is the priority? Winning flags or winning enough games to avoid supporter dissatisfaction? The last 5-10 years feels a bit like we're a more financially stable North Melbourne - unwilling to risk a drop in results for fear of losing revenue, at the expense of the ultimate success.