Resource 1919 - 1923 jumpers

[Mero]

As some of you may know, I have a website www.footyjumpers.com
Going off information that was available at the time, I had posted the St.Kilda jumper as being the same from 1919 to 1922.
This being a Red, Gold & Black "Belgium inspired' jumper.
There are several colourised Black & White images, where an artist has painted over sections of the uniform, and for the most part, I've found all of these are wrong in some easily identifiable part, throwing the doubt over the rest of their work.
There appear to be two versions of jumper, one with a Vee, and the other with a Vee and a Band as well.

Here's the team before the Round 3 1922 game v Melbourne. (We know this because Stan Cooper in the back Row only played two games in his other game Jack James did not play)

From this it seems clear that players in the middle row: Harry Moyes, Barney Carr, Wels Eicke & Bill Cubbins have jumpers with a flapped collar (and the flaps have lines on them) plus their Vee looks lighter. In Cubbins & Moyes case, the jumper appears to have a Band as well as the Vee.
Players in the Top & Bottom rows are mostly wearing jumpers with a button up collar with no flap, and where they have sleeves, those sleeves seem to have an armband, like jockey silks.
The centre row have cuffs of a different colour to the sleeves, the others don't.
Currently, I am most convinced by the version I have on the website

However, it appears more than likely that there was an earlier version of this, without the band.

What I am looking for is access to photographs in good resolution that might assist in determining the actual design of these jumpers.
Does anyone have anything from 1919 to 1922 team or game photos?

 

[George]

As some of you may know, I have a website www.footyjumpers.com
Going off information that was available at the time, I had posted the St.Kilda jumper as being the same from 1919 to 1922.
This being a Red, Gold & Black "Belgium inspired' jumper.
There are several colourised Black & White images, where an artist has painted over sections of the uniform, and for the most part, I've found all of these are wrong in some easily identifiable part, throwing the doubt over the rest of their work.
There appear to be two versions of jumper, one with a Vee, and the other with a Vee and a Band as well.

Here's the team before the Round 3 1922 game v Melbourne. (We know this because Stan Cooper in the back Row only played two games in his other game Jack James did not play)
View attachment 1279151
From this it seems clear that players in the middle row: Harry Moyes, Barney Carr, Wels Eicke & Bill Cubbins have jumpers with a flapped collar (and the flaps have lines on them) plus their Vee looks lighter. In Cubbins & Moyes case, the jumper appears to have a Band as well as the Vee.
Players in the Top & Bottom rows are mostly wearing jumpers with a button up collar with no flap, and where they have sleeves, those sleeves seem to have an armband, like jockey silks.
The centre row have cuffs of a different colour to the sleeves, the others don't.
Currently, I am most convinced by the version I have on the website
View attachment 1279159
However, it appears more than likely that there was an earlier version of this, without the band.

What I am looking for is access to photographs in good resolution that might assist in determining the actual design of these jumpers.
Does anyone have anything from 1919 to 1922 team or game photos?

Hello Mero, yes I have a few images from that time.

Here are two photos of Barney Carr & Wally Cameron with the guernsey in question - might give better insight to the design.

Also I suspect in 1923 we weren't wearing this guernsey anymore, given these two photos were taken in 1923 and look much different.

 

[Saintos The ITK]

* me they look as hard as nails.
How haven’t we got about 10 more flags?

 

[Mero]

Hello Mero, yes I have a few images from that time.

Here are two photos of Barney Carr & Wally Cameron with the guernsey in question - might give better insight to the design.

Also I suspect in 1923 we weren't wearing this guernsey anymore, given these two photos were taken in 1923 and look much different.

Thank you for responding.
In all honesty, these are part of the problem.
Here's the B&W version of the Barney Carr card.

It's clearly a Dark jumper with a Light Vee and Band. The cuffs are light, the Sleeves are Dark.
There's no way you could think the top half of the sleeves were Yellow/Gold.

In the same Magpie Cigarette card set as Wally Cameron was this Barney Carr card.
Along side it is a poster that came out the same year, using the same B&W image .
Either of them might be correct, maybe neither of them is.


I should also note, in my experience, Red absorbs light almost as much as Black does.
This means the Dark sections on the jumpers could be Red or Black.

 

[George]

Thank you for responding.
In all honesty, these are part of the problem.
Here's the B&W version of the Barney Carr card.
View attachment 1279663
It's clearly a Dark jumper with a Light Vee and Band. The cuffs are light, the Sleeves are Dark.
There's no way you could think the top half of the sleeves were Yellow/Gold.

In the same Magpie Cigarette card set as Wally Cameron was this Barney Carr card.
Along side it is a poster that came out the same year, using the same B&W image .
Either of them might be correct, maybe neither of them is.
View attachment 1279664

I should also note, in my experience, Red absorbs light almost as much as Black does.
This means the Dark sections on the jumpers could be Red or Black.

I agree. I think the second picture I posted is more of what it would've been judging by the photos I've seen so far. I don't know if the socks are hooped red and yellow like in your design or if they are just solid yellow like that Carr photo you posted.

There is also the possibility that some of the designs may have been different due to shortage of stock, in the team photo it doesn't look like all jumpers are the same.

 

[gringo2011]

I agree. I think the second picture I posted is more of what it would've been judging by the photos I've seen so far. I don't know if the socks are hooped red and yellow like in your design or if they are just solid yellow like that Carr photo you posted.

There is also the possibility that some of the designs may have been different due to shortage of stock, in the team photo it doesn't look like all jumpers are the same.

Back in the day a friend of mine bought some old footy photos from that era and it seemed that there were pretty loose rules for matching jumpers- several players seemed to have variations on designs and as long as they were similar no-one was pulling them up on it. Unless positions had different designs or something in those days. He sold them so I can't go back and check it but they had some with no collars, some with different stripes or markings, some with sleeves some with out, some laced, some open. It looked like a free for all.

I saw these on eBay too. Have a different sized stripe in one of the kits and cuff sizes vary.

1920-1933 Vintage VFL Cards 8 X Assorted St Kilda Fair - Good condition | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for 1920-1933 Vintage VFL Cards 8 X Assorted St Kilda Fair - Good condition at the best online prices at eBay!

www.ebay.com.au

 

[gringo2011]

File:1909 St Kilda Football Club.jpg - Wikimedia Commons

commons.wikimedia.org

This one for example has barely two the same.

 

[Mero]

I agree. I think the second picture I posted is more of what it would've been judging by the photos I've seen so far. I don't know if the socks are hooped red and yellow like in your design or if they are just solid yellow like that Carr photo you posted.

There is also the possibility that some of the designs may have been different due to shortage of stock, in the team photo it doesn't look like all jumpers are the same.

Yes, I agree.
The jumper seems to be most likely to be in the design of the colourised Magpie cigarette cards.
Red, Black Yoke, Deep Gold Vee, Black Sleeves, Red Armbands.
These jumpers had a plain Black collar and the neck was open, and not button up.

In 1921 some of the jumpers were replaced, and the replacements were Red, Black Yoke, Plain Gold Vee, Gold Band. Black Sleeves with Red & Gold cuffs.
These jumpers also had button up collars and the collars also had a Gold & Red stripe on them.

Even more were replaced in 1922, such that by now half the team, or perhaps more, wore the second version.

This is not confirmed, but with the information provided, I would suggest it is the most likely scenario.

 

[dougiemac]

fu** me they look as hard as nails.
How haven’t we got about 10 more flags?

Everyone was hard as nails back then. Even the women.