1st Test Australia v West Indies 30/11-4/12 1250hrs @ Perth Stadium

[PhatBoy]

RE the 1st Test, I thought WI had a decent chance of holding out for a draw with Smith captaining for large periods, Cummins being unable to bowl, Hazlewood not quite being at the races, and Starc having a pretty unimpressive fifth day record, but Lyon really rose to the occasion.

That the pitch started to take turn obviously helped, but he varied his pace and angle a bit more than he did in the first innings. The ball that bowled Braithwaite skidded on to him before he could even finish his stroke, while the ball that bowled Roach was flighted more slowly.

It's telling that it was Cummins, not Smith, who brought Head on. Head actually complemented Lyon pretty well - bowled at a different angle and more slowly, tempting the batsmen into driving. Holder fell like this, though that was a very poor shot given the match situation.

RE Adelaide, if Cummins is out then you'd normally pick the better bowler (Boland) over the better batsman (Neser). From what I've seen of Neser, he wouldn't disgrace himself but IMO Boland is less predictable - he varies his angle on the crease more, decks it both ways, and is more accurate. With a pink ball, he should elicit more movement and make the batsmen play more.

I've had a look at Lance Morris. People compare him to Brett Lee but I don't really see it. Even early Lee had a more side-on action and was more wicket-to-wicket, never mind the later version. He's more like Allan Donald or a more open-chested Shane Bond. From what I've seen, like Donald he can make the ball rear up off a length, but his open-chested action means that he can't move the ball away as easily as Bond could, and he's more likely to spray it. If it was a dead rubber, I wouldn't be against giving him a go, but not in a live Test.

(Yes, I know that Malcolm Marshall's action was very open-chested, but he was a freak. And obviously Morris is nowhere near as accurate or skilful as Donald was.)

You’re a knowledgeable poster and I think you watch a lot of overseas cricket.

Would you agree with the theory that the West Indies are probably one stroke maker (a good one, not a hit and miss one like Mayers) from being a mid-tier side? That was what I felt we were missing through both innings; Blackwood is still feeling his way against the better attacks and obviously has some issues with good short pitches bowling so that negates the best established stoke player we have.

Despite their incredibly poor records it screams of a role that Shai Hope or Shimron Hetmeyer could fill

 

[Jim Prideaux]

You’re a knowledgeable poster and I think you watch a lot of overseas cricket.

Would you agree with the theory that the West Indies are probably one stroke maker (a good one, not a hit and miss one like Mayers) from being a mid-tier side? That was what I felt we were missing through both innings; Blackwood is still feeling his way against the better attacks and obviously has some issues with good short pitches bowling so that negates the best established stoke player we have.

Despite their incredibly poor records it screams of a role that Shai Hope or Shimron Hetmeyer could fill

Their run rate in both innings was ok, a little more starch in the middle order would’ve made the match a lot closer. But a good stroke maker I think would make them a decent bit better.

 

[PhatBoy]

Their run rate in both innings was ok, a little more starch in the middle order would’ve made the match a lot closer. But a good stroke maker I think would make them a decent bit better.

Someone that offers a bit of danger I guess is what I’m getting at. And I agree they actually settled into a reasonable scoring rate in both digs

Holder is the best at actually putting some pressure back on the opposition but as a non specialist he’s hit and miss

 

[Jim Prideaux]

Someone that offers a bit of danger I guess is what I’m getting at. And I agree they actually settled into a reasonable scoring rate in both digs

Holder is the best at actually putting some pressure back on the opposition but as a non specialist he’s hit and miss

Absolutely agree, against a tiring attack in Perth, that would’ve been extremely helpful. Is their anyone in their set up who has those attributes?

 

[PhatBoy]

Absolutely agree, against a tiring attack in Perth, that would’ve been extremely helpful. Is their anyone in their set up who has those attributes?

The obvious ones in no particular order are Hope, Hetmeyer, Pooran and Bravo. Hope is pretty committed to WI cricket. Bravo drifts in and out, Hetmeyer keeps failing fitness measures and Pooran is entrenched in the limited overs sides so they’re all thereabouts on the periphery

Devon Thomas that’s in the squad actually averaged 60 last domestic season but his career record is ordinary. He has some shots though.

Others who were decent this year were discards like Kieran Powell, the test dodger John Campbell, Vishaul Singh etc

 

[Jim Prideaux]

The obvious ones in no particular order are Hope, Hetmeyer, Pooran and Bravo. Hope is pretty committed to WI cricket. Bravo drifts in and out, Hetmeyer keeps failing fitness measures and Pooran is entrenched in the limited overs sides so they’re all thereabouts on the periphery

Devon Thomas that’s in the squad actually averaged 60 last domestic season but his career record is ordinary. He has some shots though.

Others who were decent this year were discards like Kieran Powell, the test dodger John Campbell, Vishaul Singh etc

It’s a shame that they, more than most get badly affected by the international T20 leagues.

I wish I caught more domestic cricket over there. Maybe as a New Year’s resolution, always been a team that fascinates me.

 

[PhatBoy]

It’s a shame that they, more than most get badly affected by the international T20 leagues.

I wish I caught more domestic cricket over there. Maybe as a New Year’s resolution, always been a team that fascinates me.

It’s very hard to follow it closely - cricinfo tend to let a lot of it pass them by, you’re restricted in terms of data to the CWI site mostly and they show a lot of the games on YouTube using fairly poor coverage standards.

 

[DaRick]

You’re a knowledgeable poster and I think you watch a lot of overseas cricket.

Would you agree with the theory that the West Indies are probably one stroke maker (a good one, not a hit and miss one like Mayers) from being a mid-tier side? That was what I felt we were missing through both innings; Blackwood is still feeling his way against the better attacks and obviously has some issues with good short pitches bowling so that negates the best established stoke player we have.

Despite their incredibly poor records it screams of a role that Shai Hope or Shimron Hetmeyer could fill

You flatter me, and you know your stuff too.

The difficulty with WI is that they have no shortage of #5/#6/#7 batsmen (Blackwood, Mayers, Holder, arguably Brooks) but they lack a proper #3 and #4. Your #3 should ideally be able to both see off the new ball and maintain the tempo if necessary. Bonner can certainly grind, but he doesn't seem suited to the latter. Your #4 should be a strokemaker with a sound technique. Blackwood has the shots, but not the technique. Plus he's lousy against spin, so batting him at #5/#6 doesn't seem like a great idea against sides with capable spinners. Brooks looks like another James Vince - he looks good at face value, but then he prods at the ball and gets out. Mayers seems like a lesser version of Travis Head - he can maul the bowling when he's on, but he's not always on.

The problem with their batting lineup is not an absence of strokemakers IMO, but more that it lacks the variety/technical quality to succeed more often than not.

Their bowling has a very similar issue, with Chase being a no-rounder rather than an actual Test-quality spinner.

Their fielding was also increasingly ragged, which speaks to ongoing issues with professionalism that I think affect the batting as well. This is in large part the WICB's fault but hiring a capable fielding coach (Mike Young?) wouldn't hurt.

 

[PhatBoy]

You flatter me, and you know your stuff too.

The difficulty with WI is that they have no shortage of #5/#6/#7 batsmen (Blackwood, Mayers, Holder, arguably Brooks) but they lack a proper #3 and #4. Your #3 should ideally be able to both see off the new ball and maintain the tempo if necessary. Bonner can certainly grind, but he doesn't seem suited to the latter. Your #4 should be a strokemaker with a sound technique. Blackwood has the shots, but not the technique. Plus he's lousy against spin, so batting him at #5/#6 doesn't seem like a great idea against sides with capable spinners. Brooks looks like another James Vince - he looks good at face value, but then he prods at the ball and gets out. Mayers seems like a lesser version of Travis Head - he can maul the bowling when he's on, but he's not always on.

The problem with their batting lineup is not an absence of strokemakers IMO, but more that it lacks the variety/technical quality to succeed more often than not.

Their bowling has a very similar issue, with Chase being a no-rounder rather than an actual Test-quality spinner.

Their fielding was also increasingly ragged, which speaks to ongoing issues with professionalism that I think affect the batting as well. This is in large part the WICB's fault but hiring a capable fielding coach (Mike Young?) wouldn't hurt.

A very fair and legitimate assessment. Brooks did look really good - better than I remember - but you’re right he’s more style than substance.

I was really disappointed with the effort in the field. Guys giving up on chases etc - I think they have a good leader in that regard in Brathwaite in that he is a 5 day cricketer. It was observed numerous times that he was on the field for basically four full days and his concentration never wavered. His tactics aren’t the best but I like the standard he sets.

I want someone to get up Joseph’s ass as I think his attitude is what’s holding him back. He showed a glimpse with the ball against Marnus - he has it in him.

He need look no further than Shannon Gabriel for an example of a player with the physical tools who took a bit of a rocket to get him to become a threat.

 

[SAweagle]

Chief, how much are we supposed to get for each post?

Depends on the value provided

 

[Jimthegreat]

Agree not for the Pink Test as Starc has an envious pinkie record. Most wickets I understand. So does Hazlewood.. took 5/8 from memory in one a couple of years back.

If all selections were on form Boland would not be there. Has only taken 10 @24.50 this season. He was picked on reputation from his trio of tests. Doubt he can get close to replicating that performance.

You know Boland has only bowled in 4 innings this year? Two games the opposition had just one innings. Hence why just 10 wickets. The 24.50 average might have been a giveaway. If he had played in all 5 Shield games the average would be wayyyy higher off just 10 wickets.

 

[MinerBoy]

Talking about Johnson in 2014. One year when he bowled out of his skin. Never replicated before or after as for much of his career he wasted his pace, which I doubt ever reached 150, by spraying the ball all over the deck. ala Starc on his bad days.

Johnson was a far better test bowler than Lee ever was, regardless of pace or the brief battle Johnson had when he lost his radar.

Lee was a fast, but not great, test bowler. Absolute white ball gun though.


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[Jimthegreat]

Johnson was a far better test bowler than Lee ever was, regardless of pace or the brief battle Johnson had when he lost his radar.

Lee was a fast, but not great, test bowler. Absolute white ball gun though.


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The problem was they tried to make Johnson a swing bowler for many years. Didn't suit him as he was all over the place. Once he was able to bowl his naturally length, hitting the pitch hard just short of length, he became an entirely different bowler. Suddenly he was devastating.

 

[Gough]

The problem was they tried to make Johnson a swing bowler for many years. Didn't suit him as he was all over the place. Once he was able to bowl his naturally length, hitting the pitch hard just short of length, he became an entirely different bowler. Suddenly he was devastating.

I suspect Johnson being right mentally was as much of a battle as his form. It was glorious when it all came together though.

 

[PhatBoy]

I suspect Johnson being right mentally was as much of a battle as his form. It was glorious when it all came together though.

As good as he was against England in that ashes series - and he was - they were as meek as you could possibly imagine and when they were bullied they were very mediocre

When he went to SA and did it to a team who were hardened, tough, and not intimidated by anything, that was when he really hit his zenith

 

[melanChronic]

The problem was they tried to make Johnson a swing bowler for many years. Didn't suit him as he was all over the place. Once he was able to bowl his naturally length, hitting the pitch hard just short of length, he became an entirely different bowler. Suddenly he was devastating.

Great call, never really thought of it like that. Starc is pretty much the bowler that they wanted Johnson to be. There's always a tendency for tunnel vision on the threat a left armer poses when they bring it in to right hand batters.

 

[DaRick]

Great call, never really thought of it like that. Starc is pretty much the bowler that they wanted Johnson to be. There's always a tendency for tunnel vision on the threat a left armer poses when they bring it in to right hand batters.

Ironically enough, so was Bollinger, although unlike Starc/Johnson, he couldn't bat or field and his attitude towards fitness wasn't great.

Definitely more consistent than either when fit, although without the express pace of the latter two.

 

[DaRick]

As good as he was against England in that ashes series - and he was - they were as meek as you could possibly imagine and when they were bullied they were very mediocre

When he went to SA and did it to a team who were hardened, tough, and not intimidated by anything, that was when he really hit his zenith

ENG 2013/14 were not as good as they were a few years prior (Strauss > Cook as captain, Trott out-of-form), but they were still considered favourites, and after the first day at the GABBA, they were rightly confident.

Johnson ripped their heart out in a way that I've never seen before or since.

 

[BarryMorgan]

If Cummins misses the second Test, after missing last year’s day-night test, do we all agree he’s scared of the dark?

 

[Gough]

Cossie!!!!!

 

[sherb]

Johnson was a far better test bowler than Lee ever was, regardless of pace or the brief battle Johnson had when he lost his radar.

Lee was a fast, but not great, test bowler. Absolute white ball gun though.


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That's a view I've always held too.

 

[Jim Prideaux]

Johnson was a far better test bowler than Lee ever was, regardless of pace or the brief battle Johnson had when he lost his radar.

Lee was a fast, but not great, test bowler. Absolute white ball gun though.


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Later in his career, Lee was a good test fast bowler, and quite the workhorse. Early on, he was only picked as a point of difference strike bowler - McGrath, Gillespie, Bichel, Kaspo were the primary.

 

[frankrizzo]

I used to think it was unfair criticism but i do agree now lee wasnt used correctly for a large chunk of his career, we had such amazing bowlers early in his career he was simply used as battering ram to scare the s**t out of the opposition but it wasnt necessarily what he needed to develop as a bowler.

 

[Jimthegreat]

Ironically enough, so was Bollinger, although unlike Starc/Johnson, he couldn't bat or field and his attitude towards fitness wasn't great.

Definitely more consistent than either when fit, although without the express pace of the latter two.

Before his last Test where he turned up unfit Dougie had taken 49 wickets from 11 Tests @23. That last Test blew the average out past 25. He was very underrated.

 

[Gough]

Later in his career, Lee was a good test fast bowler, and quite the workhorse. Early on, he was only picked as a point of difference strike bowler - McGrath, Gillespie, Bichel, Kaspo were the primary.

I thought he was a bit unlucky at the end of his career when finally given the chance to lead the attack his body gave out.