History 2,000 year old books found in Jordan - new evidence for Jesus?

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CharacterFirst

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So what's the point in 'miracles'? What was the point of Jesus? Moses & the burning bush and any other claims of God's existence in this world?

I would think even the most ardent of skeptics would change their mind had they witnessed the parting of the Red Sea.
Yes you would think so. But even Jesus taught that people could be shown all sorts of things and still not believe. cf. Luke 16:19-31 re this point.

God wants it primarily to be about accepting his grace thru faith in Jesus Christ.
 

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You have to consider the deeper theological meaning of these issues.
Isn't that trying to speak on behalf of God?

Maybe he is trying to impress.

Not meaning to offend, but for a non believer like me, the practice of worship in itself would lead me to think he's insecure (assuming of course that he requires you to do so).
 

CharacterFirst

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Isn't that trying to speak on behalf of God?

Maybe he is trying to impress.

Not meaning to offend, but for a non believer like me, the practice of worship in itself would lead me to think he's insecure (assuming of course that he requires you to do so).
I'm sure Serg will answer for himself, but.....:)

Never has a truer word been spoken than the one that claims we all worship something. If it isn;t God it will be money, or family, or footy, or ourselves, or whatever. Worship is really about living to obey God's will. There is public worship - church etc, but that is not really a very complete picture of what worship is. To worship God means to give him the highest priority in your life. [FONT=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]Worship is included as part of God's command to love him, for it's a proper expression of our love for someone who is perfect and so much above us in every way. If it's fitting for us to praise our friends and family when they do well, how much more appropriate it is for us to praise a perfect God! When we love God and realize how awesome he is, worship and praise are natural results. [/FONT]

Now that's not say I always worship God very well with my life, b/c i am at heart a selfish, imperfect human like all of us are.
 

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I'm sure Serg will answer for himself, but.....:)

Never has a truer word been spoken than the one that claims we all worship something. If it isn;t God it will be money, or family, or footy, or ourselves, or whatever. Worship is really about living to obey God's will. There is public worship - church etc, but that is not really a very complete picture of what worship is. To worship God means to give him the highest priority in your life. [FONT=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]Worship is included as part of God's command to love him, for it's a proper expression of our love for someone who is perfect and so much above us in every way. If it's fitting for us to praise our friends and family when they do well, how much more appropriate it is for us to praise a perfect God! When we love God and realize how awesome he is, worship and praise are natural results. [/FONT]

Now that's not say I always worship God very well with my life, b/c i am at heart a selfish, imperfect human like all of us are.
I'm CharacterFirst. I'm special. I have privileged access to the mind of god, unlike you gormless cretins. If only those blind fools were as insightful as I. Oh, and I'm humble.
 
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Thread starter #131
Isn't that trying to speak on behalf of God?

Maybe he is trying to impress.

Not meaning to offend, but for a non believer like me, the practice of worship in itself would lead me to think he's insecure (assuming of course that he requires you to do so).
Podcast 54 (Is God Needy?) may give you an idea of what Christians think about this.

http://itunes.apple.com/au/podcast/reasonable-faith-podcast/id252618197

Can I also say to any other atheist who wants to understand Christianity the way Christians understand it (so, when you are being critical or questioning Christianity, you are not attacking a straw man) you read some Christian theology or philosophy from the top guys.

(If I want to understand a branch of science, I will go to the best. You should do the same with any discipline, theory or worldview).

In my humble opinion, the world's greatest Christian theologian is a guy named NT Wright. The world's greatest Christian philosopher is Alvin Platinga. Both brilliant men and highly respected across the world.

You never know, you might just be surprised by how logical, coherent and intellectually satisfying Christianity is. :thumbsu:


[youtube]3BP1PpDyDCw[/youtube]

[youtube]ffWo7nzL66o&feature=related[/youtube]
 

Max zero

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You never know, you might just be surprised by how logical, coherent and intellectually satisfying Christianity is. :thumbsu:
But its very nature the supernatural is not logical or coherent. At least CF is willing to admit faith is needed.

If you you sole guide is logic then you will never end at the supernatural answer.
 

CharacterFirst

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But its very nature the supernatural is not logical or coherent. At least CF is willing to admit faith is needed.

If you you sole guide is logic then you will never end at the supernatural answer.
Yep, gotta have faith. But Xianity is also logical, coherent and intellectually satisfying.
 
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Thread starter #135
But its very nature the supernatural is not logical or coherent. At least CF is willing to admit faith is needed.

If you you sole guide is logic then you will never end at the supernatural answer.
When did I ever say faith wasn't a part of Christianity?

You seem to have this weird extreme view where it's either all or nothing...two extremes of the spectrum. You either use faith or reason and logic. That's not how it works. You can have faith that is based on reason and logic.
 

Max zero

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When did I ever say faith wasn't a part of Christianity?

You seem to have this weird extreme view where it's either all or nothing...two extremes of the spectrum. You either use faith or reason and logic. That's not how it works. You can have faith that is based on reason and logic.
Views based on reason and logic isn't faith it's reasonable.

Faith by it's very definition is views without evidence.

If you have evidence then you don't need faith.
 

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Thread starter #137
Views based on reason and logic isn't faith it's reasonable.

Faith by it's very definition is views without evidence.

If you have evidence then you don't need faith.
Do you have a family doctor?

Do you have faith in him or her?

Yes? Is it based on any evidence? Yes? So faith can be evidence based.

We've done this before and I honestly struggle to see how you cannot grasp this. :confused:
 

evo

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We've done this before and I honestly struggle to see how you cannot grasp this. :confused:
Maybe he can't grasp it because you are speaking nonsense.

Just because you are using the word faith in both instances doesn't mean they have the same meaning. There are countless words in the English language that have several applications, sometimes unrelated to one another.

I wont lecture on you on what faith means in religion given you are so well studied in this matter. But faith in the doctor example is related to heurestics. It is a use of common sense and expedience to trust the doctor based on past experiences.

That you conflate the two uses of the term faith makes me think you haven't really thought it through.
 

CharacterFirst

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Views based on reason and logic isn't faith it's reasonable.

Faith by it's very definition is views without evidence.

If you have evidence then you don't need faith.
Aren't the non-religious who reject faith because it conflicts with their reason, reasoning based on principles established by faith.
 

Max zero

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Do you have a family doctor?

Do you have faith in him or her?

Yes? Is it based on any evidence? Yes? So faith can be evidence based.

We've done this before and I honestly struggle to see how you cannot grasp this. :confused:
Evo said it better then me.

You try to mix reasonable expectations and learned experience with religious faith.

I believe the doctor can help me if I am sick not because I think they have supernatural powers but because they have a medical degree. That is reasonable and logical.

You will never find evidence of the supernatural. Never. Because anything that is supported by logical and evidence is not supernatural. It's just plain old natural.
 

Max zero

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Aren't the non-religious who reject faith because it conflicts with their reason, reasoning based on principles established by faith.
Eh? Example?

Or are you confusing the definitions of faith? I know Sergio loves to do this.

For Sergio having faith in your spouse of 10 years that they will not cheat on you is the same as having faith in the existence of a supernatural being.
 
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Thread starter #143
Maybe he can't grasp it because you are speaking nonsense.

Just because you are using the word faith in both instances doesn't mean they have the same meaning. There are countless words in the English language that have several applications, sometimes unrelated to one another.

I wont lecture on you on what faith means in religion given you are so well studied in this matter. But faith in the doctor example is related to heurestics. It is a use of common sense and expedience to trust the doctor based on past experiences.

That you conflate the two uses of the term faith makes me think you haven't really thought it through.
Max zero said:
Evo said it better then me.

You try to mix reasonable expectations and learned experience with religious faith.

I believe the doctor can help me if I am sick not because I think they have supernatural powers but because they have a medical degree. That is reasonable and logical.

You will never find evidence of the supernatural. Never. Because anything that is supported by logical and evidence is not supernatural. It's just plain old natural.
You still don't get it. Faith in God can be the same as faith in your doctor. It's based on experience and evidence. The problem you have is that you cannot comprehend how someone can have a personal experience of God nor do you accept that there is evidence for God (when there is).

Have a watch of this clip from John Lennox who is a Christian and a scientist.

[youtube]M4YuMxRpY1M[/youtube]
 

CharacterFirst

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Eh? Example?

Or are you confusing the definitions of faith? I know Sergio loves to do this.

For Sergio having faith in your spouse of 10 years that they will not cheat on you is the same as having faith in the existence of a supernatural being.
See Serg's post in reply to evo.

I think you can use logic and reason to a point in trying to discover God. Like applying it to have a reasonable trust in the scriptures etc.

There is a step of faith need to believe. But I don't think its fair to call it a blind faith or to imply it is, like some non believers do.

And as Serg has said in his last post, the faith Xians have is actually the same faith you might have in your Dr. b/c Xians have had a personal experience of God and put their faith in him, in the same way you put your faith in your Dr b/c you have had personal experience of his competency etc.
 

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I wish I had a dollar for every time a pseudo-intellectual threw that one out on this board.

Yes I know the meaning of the word 'symbolism'.

Symbolism in the church would be things like bread & wine. They aren't seen as bread & wine, they are symbols for something far more distasteful. It's not preached as bread & wine.

The cross is the symbol of THE cross. You know, the "Jesus died on the cross . . . " story? The cross is the context of preaching is seen as representing the actual cross. In fact, if there's one common theme across the myriad of christians faiths, it's the cross and the cross story.

So if the cross is simply symbolism, where does the symbolism in the story begin and end? Could it be Jesus wasn't crucified literally, but he was crucified in the sense John Lennon used the word. Or could it be he was banished & put on a boat to some far off land where the people didn't record a thing?

The whole cross thing doesn't make sense to me anyway. To me it would be like hanging a grenade,AK47 or IED on the homes of parents of military killed as a sign of respect. Not sure I'd want to keep seeing images far more graphic than that.


.
Get a grip mate. Your argument is terrible. There are so many different cross designs out there but they all symbolise the same thing. Do you reckon that Jesus died on a Coptic cross-design or a Syriac cross-design or a Greek cross-design? Does it matter? No.
 

Max zero

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You still don't get it. Faith in God can be the same as faith in your doctor. It's based on experience and evidence. The problem you have is that you cannot comprehend how someone can have a personal experience of God nor do you accept that there is evidence for God (when there is).

Have a watch of this clip from John Lennox who is a Christian and a scientist.

[youtube]M4YuMxRpY1M[/youtube]
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Hearsay is not evidence.

There is no credible, objective, falsifiable evidence of God and there never will be. Just like there has never been any credible, objective, falsifiable evidence for any other supernatural claim. It's not like they haven't been looking, the hunt has been on for 2000 years for concrete evidence of God.

We are still waiting.

Considering the claims religions make (eternal life, etc) this is a disgrace.
 

Max zero

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See Serg's post in reply to evo.

I think you can use logic and reason to a point in trying to discover God. Like applying it to have a reasonable trust in the scriptures etc.

There is a step of faith need to believe. But I don't think its fair to call it a blind faith or to imply it is, like some non believers do.

And as Serg has said in his last post, the faith Xians have is actually the same faith you might have in your Dr. b/c Xians have had a personal experience of God and put their faith in him, in the same way you put your faith in your Dr b/c you have had personal experience of his competency etc.
The difference is my interactions with a doctor can be observed, measure and examined.

I do not doubt your belief but how can you prove your personal experience to me? Why should I believe you?
 
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Thread starter #148
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
I disagree that the claim that God exists is an extraordinary claim. Most people believe in God because it's an intuitive, common sense conclusion.

In my view atheism makes the more extraordinary claims.

Hearsay is not evidence.
Actually, hearsay can be evidence. Both in the legal field and in history.

There is no credible, objective, falsifiable evidence of God and there never will be. Just like there has never been any credible, objective, falsifiable evidence for any other supernatural claim. It's not like they haven't been looking, the hunt has been on for 2000 years for concrete evidence of God.

We are still waiting.

Considering the claims religions make (eternal life, etc) this is a disgrace.
I'm really not sure what you understand the word 'evidence' to mean. I think you often confuse it with 'proof'.

That there is evidence for God is almost indisputable.

To say that there is evidence for a hypothesis is merely to say that that hypotheiss is more probable given certain facts than it would be without those facts.

So, the hypothesis 'God's exists' is more probable given certain facts (origin of universe, fine tuning of universe, existence of objective moral values, etc) than it would be without those facts.

In other words, take those facts away and the hypothesis 'God exists' is less likely. Ergo, there's evidence for God (you might not think very good evidence, but it's clearly evidence).

Even atheists should be able to acknowledge the truth of that fairly uncontroversial statement.
 
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