- May 18, 2016
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They should put a line through perennial finals chokers, and put a youngin’ in their place. What’s the point of playing them if they can’t get the job done when the heat gets turned up.
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Senior 20: James Willis (2021 - )
- Thread starter dazbroncos
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It's a tough one. It seems necessary for us to have finals success, but it's a big call I feel CS and the match committee would never make. It would mean having Rohan, Menegola, Higgins, Dahlhaus, etc. all playing VFL all year.
It reminds me of Port trading out Jared Polec and Jasper Pittard, it felt like a huge (and wrong) call at the time, but they got Zak Butters with the pick from the trade and Polec and Pittard are on the scrap heap at North, the latter delisted. It hasn't delivered them a flag, but it's made them a better side.
Pure_Ownage
TheBrownDog
Menegola has been playing at a very high level and should not be lumped in with blokes like dahl and rohan who clearly should play vfl.
Isaac Norm Smith
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Menegola would have to be close to the most underrated and unappreciated Cats players ever. He is a very good footballer and has been an unbelievable pickup for us, especially given he was a mature aged pick in the 60's who failed at two AFL clubs previously.
Well and truly on track to play 150 games with us. Outstanding service and contribution to the club. He has been loyal too, he could have easily gone back home to WA but he has remained loyal to the club.
I cannot for the life of me understand why some don't rate him, I'm glad Scott and the MC have the same view of him as me.
Anyway, looking forward to seeing Willis in action. I think he will get games early next year. I'm really excited about him. That video of when we called out his name was just incredible. He isn't going back to SA anytime soon. Clearly rapt to be here
standupand
Club Legend
It may be an unpopular view but I also think Rohan is more important than people make out. He was clearly carrying an injury of some sort through the latter half of the year that affected his performance. First half I thought he was exceptional. No-one in our forward line has the capacity to provide that much chase-down pressure + being dangerous in the air and an excellent kick for goal. It's true he tends to go missing when the chips are down, but the same could be said for a lot of players. Perhaps someone like Willis could play a similar role in the future - or maybe he'd be better as a pure mid? With Menegola - I agree he has made a great career for himself with us. But as a winger I think he doesn't quite provide enough dash. He offers a lot defensively and sometimes gets forward to mark, but he doesn't compare to Smith I feel in terms of using his leg-speed in setting up attacks.
I'm talking purely finals/big games. Rohan's H&A form has been of a very high level too and as much as I like him, even I can't explain away his finals form.
I'll never forget sitting amongst Crows supporters at Adelaide Oval for the 2017 prelim and watching Menegola (and Motlop) make error after error when the heat was on. The stat sheet shows they finished with 23 and 26 disposals and a goal each that night, but their errors hurt us badly.
Players like these just aren't made for the big games. It reminds me of when Troy Chaplin at Port said he just didn't want the ball in his hands in big moments, some people are wired like that.
Pure_Ownage
TheBrownDog
I agree with this. If you go to a game live (which to be fair no ones been able to do for 2 years) you see the amount of off ball work menegola does to fill holes in the defensive structure and give options to teammates his workrate is A +++. And he also contributes offensively significantly and his numbers back that up. I dont get why he gets lumped in with guys like dahlhaus or rohan who dont have anywhere near the performance that he does and consistently go missing. I agree we need to push some experienced players out of the team for youth but theres at least half a dozen other 28 + guys that should go not him.
Pure_Ownage
TheBrownDog
And i get that but its actually my point. People crucify menegola or guthrie for one or two skill errors that they remember but they forget the 20 other things they did in that final that outweighed it. If you look across the tape of those whole prelims and pfs you will see they were actually in our better players on the night even with the errors. Whereas in a bad rohan or dahlhaus final they are so anonymous they might as well be in the grandstand and the stats comparison shows it. Chalk and cheese for me imo.
I see, you're more concerned with the likes of Rohan/Dahlhaus going completely missing rather than the turnovers of Menegola/Guthrie. It's a valid distinction, my Menegola criticism comes from some personal bias too.
I really hope the club isn't actually thinking like this. We have very poor chances of winning the flag UNTIL we start playing younger players, ESPECIALLY in the middle.
The club isn't going to leave out guys listed in defence (Kolo/Atkins) or the forward line (Rohan, Dalhaus, Higgins, Miers) to play additional genuine midfielders. The guys who have to be dropped/rotated/rested to start getting games into younger mids are Menegola, Parfitt, Selwood, Smith, probably with Danger spending more time forward.
Playing midfielders as forwards just to get games into them is a waste of time and only hurts us in the forward line. And if we continue to treat Danger/Selwood/Duncan/Guthrie/Menegola/Parfitt as guaranteed midfield selections we will go off a cliff at some point. Of those at least Selwood, Menegola and Parfitt should not be automatic in 2022 and the others should be rested at the faintest hint of an injury.
Also rightly or wrongly the club seems to regard a fit Miers as undroppable. I would hope to see him in the forward line in 2022, not roaming around on the half back flank because no-one else wants to run both ways.
Pure_Ownage
TheBrownDog
I didnt say i had zero concern (maybe badly worded on my part) obviously you dont want any errors from players that hurt you but im comparatively less concerned with players that make crucial errors in crunch moments but the other 80 % of the game are really important contributors as a pose to guys who at their best can be matchwinners but at their worst will be the 44th ranked player on the field and might as well not be there (eg rohan). Its only really the champions like selwood that can do both (eg contribute for 100 % of the game and not make errors in the defining moments,most lesser players are one or the other imo). But thats my preference (to have a high floor even if it means a slightly lower ceiling over high ceiling with the downside as much worse) i acknowledge a premiership side does need a mix of bankable vs high ceiling types.
Pure_Ownage
TheBrownDog
That makes no sense because all of those players are versatile eg menegola is actually very capable as an inside mid or a marking fwd but plays wing because the team needs it, parfitt can play pressure fwd, danger is capable as a deep forward, smith can play anywhere with that endurance. So if you want kids in the midfield you move those guys around and you drop some of kolo/atkins/rohan/dahl/higgins/miers/close/sav (bews on a bad day is on this list but not on a good day) because they are genuinely our bottom 6-8 players.
Dropping guys who are actually in our top 12 performers just to keep in lower performers in the bottom 6 because we are overly focused on rigid structural roles and dont see players as versatile is what i hope we dont do but we will see.
I agree the above mentioned factors plus stengle and evans will put massive pressure on miers for his spot, his defensive workrate will go in his favour but he will need to bring more than that to keep his spot.
Lol there is so much wrong with this post, I don't know where to start.
First of all, I literally demonstrated how we can have it work, by listing the team.
Second of all, Kolo and Atkins were dropped for SDK and O'Connor/Bews (whichever one is more on the fringe) - they're all defenders.
Thirdly, in this team, there are 4 pure mids, 3 half forwards and 2 wingers. Menegola doesn't need to be dropped, nor does Smith - as they both play wing and none of the players we want to debut are looking to play in that spot. Duncan can always play there if need be, but he demonstrated this year that his best position was at half forward, delivering it on a string and kicking goals himself. He also drifts around and helps out in defence and with mid rotations, so he's really a 'utility' now, more than anything.
Fourth, at our most defensive, we played 9 defenders. Most agreed that 7 or 8 - 6 on the field and one or two rotating off the bench is enough -, but the addition of Ceglar means either Stanley or him can push back and help in defence too (which gives us that 7 or 8). That's alongside all of Duncan, Smith and Menegola pushing back to help in defence due to their tanks and people able to cover so much ground. Our setup then actually ends up being more balanced as you have this spread of players (extra 3 spots as fwds and mids are interchangeable):
7 defenders (8 with second ruck)
7 midfielders (4 mids, 3 fwd/mids)
2 wingers (3-4 if we want to rotate Holmes and Duncan through there)
7 forwards (4 forwards, 3 fwd/mids)
2 rucks (4 when Hawkins relief rucks up forward and Blics relief rucks down back)
Fifth, as PO rightly pointed out, we don't need to adhere rigidly to some perceived 'structure' that makes us play worse players in pursuit of some imagined ideal amount of players in each position. Our club is huge on flexibility in players - which is why so many of our gun players can play in multiple positions.
Sixth, Willis is literally a goalkicking mid who plays at half forward, so it's not shoehorning him in or 'hurting us in the forward line'...as it's his natural position. You also agreed that Danger can play fwd, and I've explained why Duncan should be the other rotating forward - as he did it to aplomb this year. Not sure who else you're concerned about?
Lastly, this post is extremely negative, and worse, it doesn't really have any tangible evidence to back up that negativity - just your own thoughts on the matter.
All I did was show how it's possible in any game - given the positional flexibility of a lot of our players - to have /most/all of our guns playing, whilst also 'blooding' kids, and not affecting our overall team balance.
You've launched into some diatribe about how Kolo and Atkins have to play because they're defenders, and how only mids should be rested for mids - without a shred of evidence to back that up. It doesn't really achieve anything, and it just looks like you're being combative for the hell of it.
We'll obviously see what happens Round 1, but mine was purely a hypothetical exercise that sought to demonstrate what a good 'mix' could look like - on any given week. It's fine to disagree, but don't act like your word is gospel, lol - when neither of us know how things will go next year.
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TL; DR - We don't need to get rid of good players, just to shoehorn in worse players - for the sake of what position that they play in.
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Sire of Claude
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It's not as if we have an A-grade mid-field any more; yes there are some big names in there but they're getting on and they haven't helped us win too many finals. Parfitt could do whammy at any time. See will need resting. Danger is past his best.
Dal should never play again. Higgins only as back-up. There is no future in Rohan.
Menegola is a very good player and one of our best in the finals last year.
If Willis' attitude and form on the track warrant election in Rd. 1 then he should play. The same goes for Knevitt.
How many times must we watch the same lot score BELOWS in the finals?
De Koning also should go straight in and possibly Nic Stevens who will make a player. Holmes obviously.
I can't comment on Cooper S - never seen him play, other than a few blurry highlights in which he seemed just another player.
Dal should never play again. Higgins only as back-up. There is no future in Rohan.
Menegola is a very good player and one of our best in the finals last year.
If Willis' attitude and form on the track warrant election in Rd. 1 then he should play. The same goes for Knevitt.
How many times must we watch the same lot score BELOWS in the finals?
De Koning also should go straight in and possibly Nic Stevens who will make a player. Holmes obviously.
I can't comment on Cooper S - never seen him play, other than a few blurry highlights in which he seemed just another player.
So what's it like being on the match committee?
Spin it however your like, your plan is apparently that we will get games into young midfielders by not dropping any of our existing midfielders. It is a reasonable position that this is not the best way forward and that it's time to look closely at our starting mids and whether they should all be automatic picks every week.
I also think there's a strong argument that Geelong could actually use a bit more "rigidity" about positions. Rather than playing a forward as a defensive winger/back pocket (Miers) a mediocre midfielder as a forward (Atkins/Dalhaus neither of whom actually kick goals), etc.
As for Lol/so much wrong with this post/diatribe/without a shred of evidence/combative for the hell of it/don't act like your word is gospel, not sure what's got you so stirred up but yes, my post is my subjective opinion on the matter. As far as I can tell all that has inspired that hissy fit is my disagreeing with you in a reasonably polite manner. But sure, go nuts. Perhaps tape something on your computer that says "FYI all forum posts are to be taken as the poster's subjective opinion unless specifically stated to be objective fact", might help.
CatToTheFuture
Brownlow Medallist
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I distinctly remember the trade for Polec being an easy decision for Port. I mean Polec had a solid season and was a decent player for them but the offer was too good to refuse for Polec and North gave a trade that reflected the dollars.
CatToTheFuture
Brownlow Medallist
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There's a lot of bluster about how we get these kids playing senior games and I get the sense of urgency, but with a big turnover coming cohesion will be a big factor. Getting these kids games next year at afl level probably isn't as important as getting them games with each other first.
Well, I disagree about the versatility. IMHO what Geelong tends to do a bit too much is pick the 'best' 22 players and then shove them into inappropriate roles when they can't actually fit into a sensible structure.
E.g. Menegola would be better IMHO as an attacking inside mid but we have Dangerfield and Guthrie and Selwood and Parfitt in there and can't fit him into the centre square, so we tend to stick him out on a wing despite also having Duncan and Smith. This worked ok while Duncan was out but now he is homeless. I disagree that he is a capable marking forward, he has a knack for sneaking forward out of the midfield and marking with no defender playing on him but I don't recall him ever playing as a forward for a whole game and beating a competent defensive match up.
Parfitt is not a forward's bootlace, primarily because he can kick 50m vertically but only 20m horizontally and frequently takes a second or two too long to decide what to do, which is lethal in the forward 50. He's clearly an inside mid.
Danger is, contrary to dogma on this board, not a great forward either. He has no sense of where to run or how to make space for others, he drops as many overhead marks as he takes, and he is a ******* horrible kick for goal. Again, he's quite obviously an attacking midfielder rather than a forward, although more capable than Menegola and Parfitt of playing forward in bursts. Of the three Danger forward for periods is the only option I think would sensibly free up some midfield space.
Personally, I think the club needs to look very closely at how many games Selwood plays. We already buggered up Ablett's last two seasons by not resting him, let's not do that to Joel. I would be very happy to see him rested every 3-4 games which protects him and lets us get games into others.
I don't disagree that e.g. Dalhaus should never be near the team again, but then you just slot Stengle in and still have no way of getting games into genuine mids.
Anyway, different opinions which is fine. We can probably generally agree that you could start by cutting Dalhaus, Higgins, Atkins and then thinking hard about whether Stanley, Blitz and Esava all belong in the same team, then shuffle a bit.
It's probably possible to focus too much on the brand new draftees, too. I think people also want to see Stephens, Holmes, Simpson, De Koenig regularly in the mix. The rate of knots at which Holmes came on once he got a decent run of games will hopefully be giving the club plenty to think about, as should Simpson's 2020 effort towards the end of the season. Stephens and SDK it's surely time to find out what they've got.
Sire of Claude
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I like the above - see caitsith.
The myth that Danger is a good forward is based on 2, possibly 3 games. He is a mid/winger.
Parfitt is pure-inside and he is a terrible kick. Personally I don't see him as an automatic selection any more. We have quite a large contingent of mids now to choose from. Cooper S will be mature enough to play if he's any good.
Moreover in time I hope see the backs of Atkins, Kolo and possibly even Blic - we lack class in defence. De Koning at pick 19 and with 2 years under his belt should be ready to go.
Hocking has twice now referred to getting the youth/experience balance right. What have we got to lose? Do we really want to play finals only to be smashed again because too many can't cut it when the heats's on?
The myth that Danger is a good forward is based on 2, possibly 3 games. He is a mid/winger.
Parfitt is pure-inside and he is a terrible kick. Personally I don't see him as an automatic selection any more. We have quite a large contingent of mids now to choose from. Cooper S will be mature enough to play if he's any good.
Moreover in time I hope see the backs of Atkins, Kolo and possibly even Blic - we lack class in defence. De Koning at pick 19 and with 2 years under his belt should be ready to go.
Hocking has twice now referred to getting the youth/experience balance right. What have we got to lose? Do we really want to play finals only to be smashed again because too many can't cut it when the heats's on?
CatToTheFuture
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True. I'd also like to point out this is a thread dedicated to a specific draftee but is gone off the rails now and is basically covering all our expectations for list improvement.
No pressure James
- May 18, 2016
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Too many people on here think we shouldn’t play much youth, cause we are challenging. Delusion.
We aren’t anywhere near it, and if we keep playing the same old guys who can’t get the job done we will keep slipping back.
Thank god that hocking seems to have his finger on the pulse, and can see what needs to happen. Just hope it’s not just words.
Port got pick 11 for Polec and Pittard. Polec was 26 at the time and averaged 25 disposals the year prior.
