Draft Review 2005 - Redo the 2005 Draft

[Monkey King]

Re: 2005 Afl draft Re-Done

Collingwood would still take Thomas @ pick 2.

So you'd still take Thomas over Pendles?

The only that would change is Pendlebury would go pick 1.

I seriously doubt this unless we're talking only about last season.

 

[Gone Critical]

Re: 2005 Afl draft Re-Done

Yes. That is a fact. It is not a fact that he won't or can't and certainly IMO last year was the first time Pendles got his nose in front.

Re-done draft threads include potential in assessments all the time, yet when I do that here people seem to get terribly upset; despite some pretty detailed posts laying out my reasoning; coupled with stacks of objective support.

Seems no one really wants to tackle that though. Just keep up with the "but Pendles played better than Murphy last year" comments. What is it you blokes don't get? You keep repeating shit I've already agreed with

I agree that Murphy and Pendles have been neck and neck over the journey. I would have had Murph just in front until 2010 but that was as much to do with trying to avoid bias with Collingwood players. Most good judges would be happy with anybody who had them level pegging.

2010 is unfair on Murphy when judging the two due to his injury woes. Still Pendlebury took another v large step in the direction of being an elite player. It now remains to be seen if Murphy can bridge that gap Pendles has created.

I think we need to wait for 2011 to be done before fairly doing the reorder but Murphy has to do what Pendles has already done.

 

[Heater39]

Re: 2005 Afl draft Re-Done

Pendles was playing better than Murphy in 09 before Pendles got injured. He was 3rd in the AFL for possessions up until he got injured. Murphy was better in 2006 but since then Pendles has been the superior player, albeit not by much.

 

[Kramer1]

Re: 2005 Afl draft Re-Done

I agree that Murphy and Pendles have been neck and neck over the journey. I would have had Murph just in front until 2010 but that was as much to do with trying to avoid bias with Collingwood players. Most good judges would be happy with anybody who had them level pegging.

2010 is unfair on Murphy when judging the two due to his injury woes. Still Pendlebury took another v large step in the direction of being an elite player. It now remains to be seen if Murphy can bridge that gap Pendles has created.

I think we need to wait for 2011 to be done before fairly doing the reorder but Murphy has to do what Pendles has already done.

Can't fault that. Pendlebury lifted his game to another level, particularly when the ball wasn't in his hands, and injuries or not Murphy didn't.

 

[Greg Brady]

Re: 2005 Afl draft Re-Done

I agree that Murphy and Pendles have been neck and neck over the journey. I would have had Murph just in front until 2010 but that was as much to do with trying to avoid bias with Collingwood players. Most good judges would be happy with anybody who had them level pegging.

2010 is unfair on Murphy when judging the two due to his injury woes. Still Pendlebury took another v large step in the direction of being an elite player. It now remains to be seen if Murphy can bridge that gap Pendles has created.

I think we need to wait for 2011 to be done before fairly doing the reorder but Murphy has to do what Pendles has already done.

great post!

 

[Monkey King]

Re: 2005 Afl draft Re-Done

I think we need to wait for 2011 to be done before fairly doing the reorder but Murphy has to do what Pendles has already done.

Very well reasoned post GC; can't fault it. I pretty much agree with everything you've said and have not once claimed anything different.

 

[RattataIsSoCool]

Re: 2005 Afl draft Re-Done

Carlton would sell their souls for the opportunity to re-do this draft over and grab Pendlebury at number 1.

 

[Monkey King]

Re: 2005 Afl draft Re-Done

Carlton would sell their souls for the opportunity to re-do this draft over and grab Pendlebury at number 1.

I guess you can only speak for yourself.

 

[RattataIsSoCool]

Re: 2005 Afl draft Re-Done

I guess you can only speak for yourself.

And Carlton (I'm Wayne Hughes btw)

 

[Silvagnis]

Re: 2005 Afl draft Re-Done

Carlton would sell their souls for the opportunity to re-do this draft over and grab Pendlebury at number 1.

I guess Carlton could do with another midfielder...

A shame Kennedy was picked at four to be the sort of selection everyone patted us on the back for in 2005. And criticised the club for not making since then. A mistake is a selection where you haven't picked a player who is good enough to be in your best 22. We still wouldn't sneeze at taking Murphy and Kennedy in the top five. The Pies might have gone down a different road if they didn't have Rocca, Cloke, Rusling and Tarrant on their list in 2005. Curiously, the Pies selected Dawes in the next draft after trading Tarrant.

 

[Schulzenfest]

Re: 2005 Afl draft Re-Done

General, you're aware the quote in your sig is sarcasm, right?

 

[Gone Critical]

Re: 2005 Afl draft Re-Done

I guess Carlton could do with another midfielder...

A shame Kennedy was picked at four to be the sort of selection everyone patted us on the back for in 2005. And criticised the club for not making since then. A mistake is a selection where you haven't picked a player who is good enough to be in your best 22. We still wouldn't sneeze at taking Murphy and Kennedy in the top five. The Pies might have gone down a different road if they didn't have Rocca, Cloke, Rusling and Tarrant on their list in 2005. Curiously, the Pies selected Dawes in the next draft after trading Tarrant.

Even more than that we drafted Reid at 8(who was earmarked to be a forward) with the pick we got for Tarrant and another big man Nathan Brown at 10

Dawes (28) followed those 2 then Brad Dick (44) and Tyson Goldsack (63)

We then went to the Rookie draft and grabbed Wellingham, Macaffer and Marty Clarke

Not a bad year

 

[HFF]

Re: 2005 Afl draft Re-Done

So you'd still take Thomas over Pendles?



I seriously doubt this unless we're talking only about last season.

When I said Pies would still take Thomas @ 2 it was in reference to another poster putting together a list of who would clubs take if it were re-done. They wouldn't hesitate to take Thomas @ 2.

As for Pendles, he would clearly go #1- there is "serious doubt" about it.

 

[Monkey King]

Re: 2005 Afl draft Re-Done

As for Pendles, he would clearly go #1- there is "serious doubt" about it.

With 100% sincerity and in keeping with the point GC and I have made, I doubt Carlton would not select Murphy if given the chance again. Draft decisions aren't made off one year's form and I am sure Carlton are still every bit as confident Murphy will be the better player now, as they were on draft day; and as he showed in every season bar the one he was injured in.

 

[Wizard]

Re: 2005 Afl draft Re-Done

With 100% sincerity and in keeping with the point GC and I have made, I doubt Carlton would not select Murphy if given the chance again. Draft decisions aren't made off one year's form and I am sure Carlton are still every bit as confident Murphy will be the better player now, as they were on draft day; and as he showed in every season bar the one he was injured in.

Although i fail to see how they could justify not taking Pendels @ number 1 i can make a small argument by looking at their list now.
Gibbs and Pendels IMO are very similar style players, or at least will be when Gibbs develops the way he should/will. Therefore the Murphy fit isn't bad.

 

[jabbers]

Re: 2005 Afl draft Re-Done

Although i fail to see how they could justify not taking Pendels @ number 1 i can make a small argument by looking at their list now.
Gibbs and Pendels IMO are very similar style players, or at least will be when Gibbs develops the way he should/will. Therefore the Murphy fit isn't bad.

Gibbs is yet to show he can win his own ball yet. Pendlebury can play inside and outside mid.
Gibbs may be able to do this but hasn't shown it yet.

 

[Monkey King]

Re: 2005 Afl draft Re-Done

Although i fail to see how they could justify not taking Pendels @ number 1

If you believe Murphy will be the better player, how could justify not taking him earlier. There's not one AFL season these two have played that contradicts that belief except for the one in which Murphy was injured. I reckon the Blues would back their man and take him again.

 

[jabbers]

Re: 2005 Afl draft Re-Done

If you believe Murphy will be the better player, how could justify not taking him earlier. There's not one AFL season these two have played that contradicts that belief except for the one in which Murphy was injured. I reckon the Blues would back their man and take him again.

Going around in circles MK. There are many who believe Pendlebury's 2009 was superior as well. Pendlebury came from a basketball background so had a bit of ground to make up. he has some physical advantages and the fact is Murphy has not yet shown he can be an elite midfielder. Pendlebury has!
By the way, wizard never said he thought Murphy would be better! His argument was related to what type of player Carlton needed.

 

[Monkey King]

Re: 2005 Afl draft Re-Done

Going around in circles MK. There are many who believe Pendlebury's 2009 was superior as well.

Sure; some believe that, most neutrals believed otherwise at the time and I've provided objective evidence to support my contention; yet to see any that disputes it.

the fact is Murphy has not yet shown he can be an elite midfielder. Pendlebury has!

What does "elite" mean to you?

In 2009, Murphy should have been AA and was in plenty of experts and punters AA team. When not selected, many highlighted this as an oversight. Finished top 10 in the Brownlow and rated by most among the top 7-8 mids in the league for that year. IMO this shows he can be an elite midfielder.

Btw wizard made two points. I addressed only the first one.

 

[jabbers]

Re: 2005 Afl draft Re-Done

Sure; some believe that, most neutrals believed otherwise at the time and I've provided objective evidence to support my contention; yet to see any that disputes it.



What does "elite" mean to you?

In 2009, Murphy should have been AA and was in plenty of experts and punters AA team. When not selected, many highlighted this as an oversight. Finished top 10 in the Brownlow and rated by most among the top 7-8 mids in the league for that year. IMO this shows he can be an elite midfielder.

Btw wizard made two points. I addressed only the first one.

Mike Sheahan had Pendlebury in his Top 50 in March 2009. He didn't have Murphy. He had them both in the next year but rated Pendlebury higher. He was also in plenty of experts and pundits AA team in 2009.
I think he probably will end up an elite midfielder. I don't think he'll reach the levels Pendlebury does.

 

[lamaros]

Re: 2005 Afl draft Re-Done

If I was collingwood I'd have Ryder ahead of Thomas. And if I was Carlton I'd have him ahead of Kennedy and Clarke.

 

[lamaros]

Re: 2005 Afl draft Re-Done

Double post.

 

[Monkey King]

Re: 2005 Afl draft Re-Done

Mike Sheahan had Pendlebury in his Top 50 in March 2009. He didn't have Murphy. He had them both in the next year but rated Pendlebury higher.

They are prediction lists mate. Take a look at Mike's actual ranking for 2009, published in October 09' and loh and behold; Murphy @19 is ranked higher.

He was also in plenty of experts and pundits AA team in 2009.

I cited 11 "experts" AA teams from 3AW - none had Pendles, four had Murphy. I cited afl.com's All Australian team - no Pendles, but yes to Murphy. Murphy was well entrenched in the BF 09' All Australian thread; Pendles got mentions as the guy just on the outside.

All these sources I provided seem to be at odds with your claim above, so without anything to back it up, your claim really is quite baseless.

 

[jabbers]

Re: 2005 Afl draft Re-Done

They are prediction lists mate. Take a look at Mike's actual ranking for 2009, published in October 09' and loh and behold; Murphy @19 is ranked higher.



I cited 11 "experts" AA teams from 3AW - none had Pendles, four had Murphy. I cited afl.com's All Australian team - no Pendles, but yes to Murphy. Murphy was well entrenched in the BF 09' All Australian thread; Pendles got mentions as the guy just on the outside.

All these sources I provided seem to be at odds with your claim above, so without anything to back it up, your claim really is quite baseless.

Your arrogance is amazing. I stated there were those who thought he played better than Murphy in 09, hardly a baseless statement. Sheahan ranked Murphy at 19 and Pendlebury at 20 hardly a resounding difference. He also obviously ranked Pendlebury's upside as greater by ranking him significantly higher 5 months later.

 

[WCE_phil]

Re: 2005 Afl draft Re-Done

Even more than that we drafted Reid at 8(who was earmarked to be a forward) with the pick we got for Tarrant and another big man Nathan Brown at 10

Dawes (28) followed those 2 then Brad Dick (44) and Tyson Goldsack (63)
We then went to the Rookie draft and grabbed Wellingham, Macaffer and Marty Clarke
Not a bad year

Reid looks like being a good player. Brown is solid but wont be a star and is out for a year with a knee reco and you never know how players will come back from that.

Dawes is average playing in a great team and gets the second best tall each week at best whilst being fed by great mids.
Dick cant get on the park.
Goldsack is average and a roleplayer. Would be bottom 5 picked in any teams best 22.
Macaffer see above.
Wellingham. Really good young player and a great pickup especially considering what you paid.

I basically consider any draft where a team acquires 3 solid best 22 players a success and you have done that in Reid, Wellingham and Brown if fit. Dick may never be right and his position in the team is probably covered by krakeour atm.

Macaffer and goldsack are borderline 22 players.

Marty clarke who? He's done what exactly?

Everyone talks about collingwoods great depth but they really dont have any.
Collingwood have 27 players on their entire list of 48 who have actually played a game for them. Lets break down some of those players. These numbers also include.
Dick: 2 games in 2010 and very injury prone
Mccarthy: 2 games in 2010 and 10 for career so far
Wood: 4 games last year and has done absolutely zero in his career so far to show himself as anything other than a depth quality ruckman.
Brown:Out for the entire season

Furthermore there are other borderline players within their list as well who according to the numbers shown have to be within their best 22 atm.
Toovey: A contributer but will always at best be borderline 22 and won't win you games.
Goldsack: Same as above.
Leigh Brown: At best a poor mans Quinten Lynch.
Blair: Off the rookie list and has played 12 games for you and sure while 1 of those games might have produced a premiership none of the games really suggest superstar player.

So take away those 4 players and you have 23 players on the current collingwood list who have at best shown they are or could be quality players for them so far as well as 2 experienced recruits over the off season.
1. Tarrant: Close to the end of his career. Was so close in fact he was going to retire if he couldnt get to collingwood in the offseason.
2. Krakeour: 3 years out of senior afl, was an average afl player when last on a list and has served an 18 month prison term.

On top of all these things Johnson, Davis and Jolly are 30 this year and Tarrant 31. As it stands even 1-2 major injuries and collingwood could slide a long way in a similar fashion to 91. There are some juicy odds out there on collingwood missing the top 4. I'll also point out yes my club finished 16th last year and yes we seem to have huge issues with disposal and decision making. This post isn't a rag about collingwood or a comparison about clubs just about where i see your list for one and for you and your other collingwood supporters not to get too cocky yet. Remember the end of 06 we even had fremantle supporters talking about a west coast dynasty and look how that panned out. Even geelong in an amazing 4 year period still only managed to pull 2 premierships out of it. You have one from 1 good year.