Draft Review 2009 - Revisiting the 2009 AFL Draft

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Wild Bill

Brownlow Medallist
May 28, 2013
22,671
23,582
AFL Club
North Melbourne
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Seattle Seahawks
It's an excellent point and one that makes him one of the most valuable players in the competition.

It's little wonder that he's often referred to as the most significant figure in an upcoming game of football and the player the opposition needs to curtail.

There'd be little argument from nearly all neutrals that he's a top 5 player in the game.

It's also often overlooked how strong his running is. He regularly runs his ruck opponents into the ground. And some of his tapwork to Oliver and Viney is sublime.

Rucks are overrated unless you get a generational one. Then they're worth their weight in gold.
I agree - Goldy - although a level below - has been huge for us for a long time.

A good ruck is so valuable. Tipping most Cat supporters would also agree.
 

Wild Bill

Brownlow Medallist
May 28, 2013
22,671
23,582
AFL Club
North Melbourne
Other Teams
Seattle Seahawks
I get what you are saying, but I disagree that Gawn will surpass or even equal a triple premiership, Brownlow winning, norm smith medalist who played 305 games
You need to remove the midfiled's medal.
 

Ambrosia

Brownlow Medallist
Mar 11, 2010
14,271
9,088
AFL Club
Essendon
Petracca kicked 29 goals playing 70% midfield and had almost double the disposals (29 to 15).

Petracca kicks more goals from the midfield than when he's resting as a forward.

For me it's not surprising that Heeney is slated to play midfield in 2022. About time.

The midfield is where games of footy are determined.

Petracca was one of the players who had claims to best player in the comp this year. I never made a comparison between the two. I think Heeney has the ability to be a similar type of player though whether he ever reaches the heights of Petracca who knows.

Comparing total goals isn’t totally fair either. Petracca kicked 29 from 25 games whilst Heeney kick 36 from 21 games.
 

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00Stinger

Dual Group 1 winner
May 8, 2007
30,599
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Other Teams
Liverpool & San Francisco 49ers
I get what you are saying, but I disagree that Gawn will surpass or even equal a triple premiership, Brownlow winning, norm smith medalist who played 305 games
What 5 x AA, 2 x Bf winner, AFLCA award winning, AA captain & Premiership captain doesn't stack up you reckon?

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Mjs94

Club Legend
Apr 24, 2016
1,017
2,711
AFL Club
North Melbourne
What 5 x AA, 2 x Bf winner, AFLCA award winning, AA captain & Premiership captain doesn't stack up you reckon?

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Nothing against Gawn because what he has achieved is impressive, but no I don't think he does.
 

Trav 20

Norm Smith Medallist
Oct 5, 2004
9,396
7,293
488 PS
AFL Club
Melbourne
Other Teams
Dees
I get what you are saying, but I disagree that Gawn will surpass or even equal a triple premiership, Brownlow winning, norm smith medalist who played 305 games
Winning the AFLCA is more impressive than a Brownlow.

5xAA is more impressive than 2.

2xB&Fs is more impressive than 0.

And I'm pretty confident Gawn will add to his flag tally. Not that that matters in this comparison.

All Australians are a significant measure of one's standing amongst their peers. 2 in 15 years for Jimmy makes it clear that he was a rung below the absolute best players in his position. Whereas Gawn's not. And this is the only way to judge players who line up in different positions.
 

theyellowsash

Brownlow Medallist
Feb 9, 2009
15,763
20,534
Footscray
AFL Club
Richmond
B: Brad Sheppard (Pick 7), Daniel Talia (Pick 13), Dylan Grimes (Pre-season Draft Pick 2)
HB: Zach Tuohy (Rookie Pick 73), Jake Carlisle (Pick 24), Lewis Jetta (Pick 14)
C: Mitch Duncan (Pick 28), Ben Cunnington (Pick 5), Tom Scully (Pick 1)
HF: Jake Melksham (Pick 10), Sam Reid (Pick 38), Jack Gunston (Pick 29)
F: Gary Rohan (Pick 6), Levi Casboult (Rookie Pick 44), Stewart Crameri (Pick 43)
R: Max Gawn (Pick 34), Nat Fyfe (Pick 20), Dustin Martin (Pick 4)
I: Ben Stratton (Pick 46), Michael Barlow (Rookie Pick 8), Taylor Duryea (Pick 69), David Astbury (Pick 35)
would put astbury at chb, carlisle to ff, and swap scully with barlow. thats a pretty good side though.
 

Mjs94

Club Legend
Apr 24, 2016
1,017
2,711
AFL Club
North Melbourne
Winning the AFLCA is more impressive than a Brownlow.

5xAA is more impressive than 2.

2xB&Fs is more impressive than 0.

And I'm pretty confident Gawn will add to his flag tally. Not that that matters in this comparison.

All Australians are a significant measure of one's standing amongst their peers. 2 in 15 years for Jimmy makes it clear that he was a rung below the absolute best players in his position. Whereas Gawn's not. And this is the only way to judge players who line up in different positions.
AFLCA > Brownlow is subjective and I would rather the Brownlow.

Yes 5 x AA is more impressive than two but it does not consider the fact that Bartel was used as a utility at times throughout his career, whereas Gawn has been able to ply his trade in his preferred position year after year.

2 b&fs is more impressive than 0 but does not consider the strength of the team around the individual player and that's where premierships does come into it and why 3 premierships is more impressive than one, especially in years where the player won the Brownlow and Norm Smith.

To say Gawn is superior to Bartel because he has more AAs and has won B&Fs in bad teams is just a biased fallacy
 

Trav 20

Norm Smith Medallist
Oct 5, 2004
9,396
7,293
488 PS
AFL Club
Melbourne
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Dees
AFLCA > Brownlow is subjective and I would rather the Brownlow.

Yes 5 x AA is more impressive than two but it does not consider the fact that Bartel was used as a utility at times throughout his career, whereas Gawn has been able to ply his trade in his preferred position year after year.

2 b&fs is more impressive than 0 but does not consider the strength of the team around the individual player and that's where premierships does come into it and why 3 premierships is more impressive than one, especially in years where the player won the Brownlow and Norm Smith.

To say Gawn is superior to Bartel because he has more AAs and has won B&Fs in bad teams is just a biased fallacy
Gawn is one of the top 2 or 3 rucks this century.

Bartel is a rung below the best mids.

There's no other real way of comparing them.

In a dominant team Bartel had midfield team-mates that were better than him.

Petracca and Oliver are current day mids that are better than Bartel.

The fact that you'd prefer an award voted on by umpires over an award voted on by competing coaches trying to assess the most influential players in a game they're trying to win tells me all I need to know.

Btw, I loved Bartel as a player. Great in the wet, tough, smart, and one of the best marks for his height you'd see.
 

Mjs94

Club Legend
Apr 24, 2016
1,017
2,711
AFL Club
North Melbourne
Gawn is one of the top 2 or 3 rucks this century.

Bartel is a rung below the best mids.

There's no other real way of comparing them.

In a dominant team Bartel had midfield team-mates that were better than him.

Petracca and Oliver are current day mids that are better than Bartel.

The fact that you'd prefer an award voted on by umpires over an award voted on by competing coaches trying to assess the most influential players in a game they're trying to win tells me all I need to know.

Btw, I loved Bartel as a player. Great in the wet, tough, smart, and one of the best marks for his height you'd see.
Again, I don't agree with your approach because I don't see a Ruckman and a Midfielder as having the same value to a team. Give me a quality mid over a quality Ruckman any day of the week.

Bartel had one team-mate that was a better midfielder than him, maybe two if you include Selwood. The reality is is that there was a greater team benefit to having him moved around. The same applied with Luke Hodge. Do you think Liam Shiels was a better mid than Hodge just because he spent more time on-ball in the 2014 Grand Final than Hodge did?

Don't know if I agree about your point regarding Petracca and Oliver, definitely not from a longevity point. From a single season peak point I would have to go and look at Bartel's season by season stats.

From a CV point of view, what is more important? Without looking, tell me the last 5 coaches awards winners. I could go back to 1996 off the top of my head when it comes to Brownlow winners.
 

00Stinger

Dual Group 1 winner
May 8, 2007
30,599
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AFL Club
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Again, I don't agree with your approach because I don't see a Ruckman and a Midfielder as having the same value to a team. Give me a quality mid over a quality Ruckman any day of the week.

Bartel had one team-mate that was a better midfielder than him, maybe two if you include Selwood. The reality is is that there was a greater team benefit to having him moved around. The same applied with Luke Hodge. Do you think Liam Shiels was a better mid than Hodge just because he spent more time on-ball in the 2014 Grand Final than Hodge did?

Don't know if I agree about your point regarding Petracca and Oliver, definitely not from a longevity point. From a single season peak point I would have to go and look at Bartel's season by season stats.

From a CV point of view, what is more important? Without looking, tell me the last 5 coaches awards winners. I could go back to 1996 off the top of my head when it comes to Brownlow winners.
Brownlow is the most prestigious award no one can argue with that. It's mainly because of how long it has been around for

Whereas the AFLCA probably carries more weight imo as the coaches who analyse and study the sh*t out of each game vote.

But it's subjective and they are both fantastic awards to win

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Trav 20

Norm Smith Medallist
Oct 5, 2004
9,396
7,293
488 PS
AFL Club
Melbourne
Other Teams
Dees
Again, I don't agree with your approach because I don't see a Ruckman and a Midfielder as having the same value to a team. Give me a quality mid over a quality Ruckman any day of the week.

Bartel had one team-mate that was a better midfielder than him, maybe two if you include Selwood. The reality is is that there was a greater team benefit to having him moved around. The same applied with Luke Hodge. Do you think Liam Shiels was a better mid than Hodge just because he spent more time on-ball in the 2014 Grand Final than Hodge did?

Don't know if I agree about your point regarding Petracca and Oliver, definitely not from a longevity point. From a single season peak point I would have to go and look at Bartel's season by season stats.

From a CV point of view, what is more important? Without looking, tell me the last 5 coaches awards winners. I could go back to 1996 off the top of my head when it comes to Brownlow winners.
Bartel was his team's third best mid, behind Ablett and Selwood. There's also an argument that he was behind Joel Corey, who won 2 B&Fs and matched Bartel's 2xAA.

Bartel won 2AA in 15 years and zero B&F. A terrific player and a champion of the Geelong Football Club. But I don't consider him at the level of ''champion of the game''.

When Gawn finally retires in 4-5 years I believe he'll be considered not only a champion of his club, but a champion of the game.

Oliver and Petracca are only half way through their careers, so I acknowledge that it's premature to make the declaration I have.

That said, Oliver already has 3xB&Fs, he's already matched Bartel's 2xAA, and has other game records, such as the most contested possessions ever in an AFL season and the most ground-ball gets, while Petracca is a Norm Smith winner, B&F winner and also has 2xAA. Plenty consider these two currently to be in the best 3 players in the game. Did Bartel ever reach that level ? Not for me, although you'll hang your hat on a Brownlow. Petracca and Oliver are better mids than Wines, the current Brownlow Medallist. It's just not a determining factor.

Both are explosive midfield brutes who play a game that Jimmy, as good as he was, wasn't physically equipped to.
 

Wild Bill

Brownlow Medallist
May 28, 2013
22,671
23,582
AFL Club
North Melbourne
Other Teams
Seattle Seahawks
Brownlow is the most prestigious award no one can argue with that. It's mainly because of how long it has been around for

Whereas the AFLCA probably carries more weight imo as the coaches who analyse and study the sh*t out of each game vote.

But it's subjective and they are both fantastic awards to win

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Coaches award is the best indication of how good a player has been in a year. The Brownlow is a midfielders award.
 

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Wild Bill

Brownlow Medallist
May 28, 2013
22,671
23,582
AFL Club
North Melbourne
Other Teams
Seattle Seahawks
Bartel was his team's third best mid, behind Ablett and Selwood. There's also an argument that he was behind Joel Corey, who won 2 B&Fs and matched Bartel's 2xAA.

Bartel won 2AA in 15 years and zero B&F. A terrific player and a champion of the Geelong Football Club. But I don't consider him at the level of ''champion of the game''.

When Gawn finally retires in 4-5 years I believe he'll be considered not only a champion of his club, but a champion of the game.

Oliver and Petracca are only half way through their careers, so I acknowledge that it's premature to make the declaration I have.

That said, Oliver already has 3xB&Fs, he's already matched Bartel's 2xAA, and has other game records, such as the most contested possessions ever in an AFL season and the most ground-ball gets, while Petracca is a Norm Smith winner, B&F winner and also has 2xAA. Plenty consider these two currently to be in the best 3 players in the game. Did Bartel ever reach that level ? Not for me, although you'll hang your hat on a Brownlow. Petracca and Oliver are better mids than Wines, the current Brownlow Medallist. It's just not a determining factor.

Both are explosive midfield brutes who play a game that Jimmy, as good as he was, wasn't physically equipped to.
I’m taking an 18 year old Gawn over an 18 year old Bartel. It’s not close. Bartel was a very good football.
 

tomcruise

the cruisemeister
Feb 23, 2012
205
522
AFL Club
Melbourne
He should be a competition top 10 player, but I wouldn't have him top 50 on output.

He's never won a B&F and he's never made AA or been AA40.

Bayley Fritsch is only 2cm taller, kicked 59 goals as a hybrid forward, and made the AA40. I'd expect no less from a player of Heeney's ability. Fritsch is 7 months younger.

Maybe it's because I rate Heeney's ability so highly that I consider him a disappointment.

Shocks me that Fritsch is 7 months younger than Heeney. Maybe it's that Heeney looks young, because every year I think that kid's gonna be a gun when he develops. Really he should be in his prime. Definitely playing below his potential.

Fritsch had a gun year, but would probably have been rated lower outside the club if not for his GF, plenty were questioning his AA squad nom before then. Easy to see how smart and skilful a player he is as a Melbourne supporter. Will be interesting to see if teams play him differently next year to limit his influence.

Would still take Heeney over Fritsch easy, but Fritsch was easily better than Heeney this season.
 
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00Stinger

Dual Group 1 winner
May 8, 2007
30,599
36,956
@ HOME
AFL Club
Melbourne
Other Teams
Liverpool & San Francisco 49ers
Shocks me that Fritsch is 7 months younger than Heeney. Maybe it's that Heeney looks young, because every year I think that kid's gonna be a gun when he develops. Really he should be in his prime. Definitely playing below his potential.

Fritsch had a gun year, but would probably have been rated lower outside the club if not for his GF, plenty were questioning his AA squad nom before then. Easy to see how smart and skilful a player he is as a Melbourne supporter. Will be interesting to see if teams play him differently next year to limit his influence.

Would still take Heeney over Fritsch easy, but Fritsch was easily better than Heeney this season.
Wrong thread mate

This is 2009 - Martin, Fyfe, Gawn draft not the 2017 one
 

Warhorse

Premiership Player
Sep 23, 2017
3,031
4,167
AFL Club
Geelong
Bartel was his team's third best mid, behind Ablett and Selwood. There's also an argument that he was behind Joel Corey, who won 2 B&Fs and matched Bartel's 2xAA.

Bartel won 2AA in 15 years and zero B&F. A terrific player and a champion of the Geelong Football Club. But I don't consider him at the level of ''champion of the game''.

When Gawn finally retires in 4-5 years I believe he'll be considered not only a champion of his club, but a champion of the game.

Oliver and Petracca are only half way through their careers, so I acknowledge that it's premature to make the declaration I have.

That said, Oliver already has 3xB&Fs, he's already matched Bartel's 2xAA, and has other game records, such as the most contested possessions ever in an AFL season and the most ground-ball gets, while Petracca is a Norm Smith winner, B&F winner and also has 2xAA. Plenty consider these two currently to be in the best 3 players in the game. Did Bartel ever reach that level ? Not for me, although you'll hang your hat on a Brownlow. Petracca and Oliver are better mids than Wines, the current Brownlow Medallist. It's just not a determining factor.

Both are explosive midfield brutes who play a game that Jimmy, as good as he was, wasn't physically equipped to.
Bartel winning a brownlow puts him close to 'champion of the game'. Agree with the rest. By the end of their careers, Petracca, Oliver and Gawn will likely have a much higher standing in the game. Bartel has always been overated due to being a 'ggod bloke'
 

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