Review 2011/2012 List Management

cmndstab

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Outside of Shaw (and Brown obviously) all of those players had multiple games last year despite not being best 22. It happens - injuries and form lapses make it necessary.

He's a more than useful depth player, whereas Sellar is, umm, a less than useful depth player.
 

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ruscy002

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Outside of Shaw (and Brown obviously) all of those players had multiple games last year despite not being best 22. It happens - injuries and form lapses make it necessary.

He's a more than useful depth player, whereas Sellar is, umm, a less than useful depth player.
I'm on the Young wagon, not Sellar ;)

Why use any Symes-type player as depth? Don't we want to find out what the other guys have got to offer - guys who actually have the potential to be on our list in 2013?

Keep in mind that we'll also add at least another three midfield-type players across the drafts, they need opportunities too.
 

cmndstab

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Symes just isn't as bad as people here make out. Again, he's not great - but he's an AFL player.

His value to our squad has increase in the last 12 months with the new young profile. Having experienced, fit, big-bodied senior players is valuable. If nothing more, he's a solid trainer and can be a leader throughout preseason.


If we were still an old side playing very few youngsters I might understand why we'd want to get rid of our lesser-performing senior players to make way for the new guard, but that's not the case any more.
 

ruscy002

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Symes just isn't as bad as people here make out. Again, he's not great - but he's an AFL player.

His value to our squad has increase in the last 12 months with the new young profile. Having experienced, fit, big-bodied senior players is valuable. If nothing more, he's a solid trainer and can be a leader throughout preseason.


If we were still an old side playing very few youngsters I might understand why we'd want to get rid of our lesser-performing senior players to make way for the new guard, but that's not the case any more.
If he was that valuable he would be worth more than a 12 month contract ;)
 

ruscy002

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It's a bit more than that Stab.

It's what his type of player symbolised in the Craig era that people have an issue with.
This is true, but its not the direct issue that I have here. The issue that I have here is offering a 12 month contract to ANY player who - all things going well - won't be on our list in 2013

I'm at odds with the decision to keep this player on the list rather than a guy who, however unlikely, has the potential to play for the next ten years. Is that Young or Craig, or is it a new draftee? Don't care, it isn't Symes.
 

woopedazz

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This is true, but its not the direct issue that I have here. The issue that I have here is offering a 12 month contract to ANY player who - all things going well - won't be on our list in 2013

I'm at odds with the decision to keep this player on the list rather than a guy who, however unlikely, has the potential to play for the next ten years. Is that Young or Craig, or is it a new draftee? Don't care, it isn't Symes.
That's the thing, none of them have any potential; why not pick the player who is currently the best of the lot and not injured if they are all getting the boot in 2013 anyway?
 

ruscy002

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That's the thing, none of them have any potential; why not pick the player who is currently the best of the lot and not injured if they are all getting the boot in 2013 anyway?
It's exactly this sort of thinking that got us into this mess in the first place...
 

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No. It hasn't. I don't even know what you're trying to say here.
He/she (apologies) is saying, by continuing to play the best player in their best position, we have neglected to develop them for the long term.

The way the system is, if done correctly with smart trading, drafting and player development everyone must spend time down the bottom as your team is developing to allow you the opportunity to get to the very top.
 

woopedazz

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Wouldn't getting rid of 4 drop-kicks and keeping the less bad player on the list for a single year as a backup role (with all signs pointing to dropping as soon as we get a decent young replacement in 2013) be the complete opposite of this? The other kids have had time to develop and shown nothing. Arguably Young has played a couple of decent quarters at SANFL level before his most recent setback, but excusing this they've all been dreadful. Keeping Symes as a single-season-backup for the youthful mid/wing players who may get injured, with full intention of showing him the door afterwards is hardly our previous approaches. We won't be playing him over Sloane.

Half the arguments on here are all "it's the vibe, it's mabo" without anyone taking a step back and saying "actually this time we are taking a different approach."
 

Danoz

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The club would have sat down and said we have 5 blokes and only one spot left.

We want one psd spot, and the 4th pick is number 64. Can we pick up a player at 64 who is more useful than the best of the other 5? Maybe, but speculative. We can keep a guy for a year and reevaluate next year when the draft is deeper.

Who is the most useful of the 5? For me its between Symes and sellar, at least Symes was capable of playing AFL last year. Sellar just looked out of his depth.

Maybe even Sando agrees that we've had too many talls on our list and so has cut them down?
 

NTRabbit

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Thread starter #415
Sellar just looked out of his depth.
Really? Because to me, playing at CHB Sellar looked much less out of depth than McKernan did in his feeble attempts at it.

Not that it's a reason to keep Sellar, but it's not a fair description either.
 
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Sellar definitely looked much better at CHB than McKernan has so far. I think the right call to delist him though-dunno if Lynch will be any better though! Not sure if this has been mentioned but would any particular clubs be looking at picking him up? Could he offer something as a bigger body at gws?
 

cmndstab

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If he was that valuable he would be worth more than a 12 month contract ;)
I'm not trying to say he's super valuable - just that he has value for us :p

As much as I wanted him to work out, Cook really didn't. Young and Craig might have if they had been able to get onto the park. Sellar is the only one that could consider himself unlucky, but frankly he's had his chances.

It's a bit more than that Stab.

It's what his type of player symbolised in the Craig era that people have an issue with.
I have no doubt you're correct - it's people's previous discontent with our middle-of-the-road strategy to list management that is clouding their vision with regards to Symes. Still, I'd hope that our current team would be bigger than that.
 

dylan123

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This is a good point and why I thought Sellar would survive. We have plenty of players that play Symes' role. What happens if Truck and Talia go down?
Agreed.
Outside of Shaw (and Brown obviously) all of those players had multiple games last year despite not being best 22. It happens - injuries and form lapses make it necessary.
I just can't see him getting games unless we have a shitload of injuries in which he is one of the last left standing (although I'm sure we could draft a younger version of Symes from the SANFL who could bring of the skills we need to the side). I believe Sando would rather spend his time into developing someone who has a future at the club or playing older guys that can carry the side. Symes at the age of 27 (will turn 27 next year) doesn't have a lot of football left in him and considering he has only played 11 matches in both of the past two seasons shows he just isn't that highly rated (although I guess injuries could come in, can't say I really remember Symes injuries as I don't keep a close eye on him). I guess Sando could have seen something different in him but I think with the side we had play this year with the additions of Brown, B.Martin (if he makes it), Tambling (who only managed 10 games) along with a lot of other boarder guys, I just feel that we have plenty of depth in that area.


He's a more than useful depth player, whereas Sellar is, umm, a less than useful depth player.
How so? Sellar provides depth in 3 different KP roles in the backline, ruck and forwards. Our back KP depth is fairly weak/young while if Jacobs does go down, it will be a disaster in the ruck.


Obviously I'm wrong as this isn't the way the club has gone about it and I know they would have a better idea then myself. They could also have a couple of draftees (whether that be national/pre season/rookie draft) that they plan to pick up to cover those spots if we do lose some key players to injury during the season.

Hopefully (well I'm not hoping I see Symes in our AFL side anytime soon) if we do give Symes a call up to the AFL side he can preform really well and prove me wrong as I'd be more then happy to be proven wrong this way then the other way around! :)
 

Kristof

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I would have kept Sellar over Symes as well, but I'm not losing any sleep over the choice.
 

cmndstab

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I just can't see him getting games unless we have a shitload of injuries in which he is one of the last left standing (although I'm sure we could draft a younger version of Symes from the SANFL who could bring of the skills we need to the side).
If there's a younger version of Symes with skills running around in the AFL, he'll go very highly in the draft. Ball magnets with good fitness, courage, and strong bodies who also have good skills are pretty valuable commodities!

How so? Sellar provides depth in 3 different KP roles in the backline, ruck and forwards. Our back KP depth is fairly weak/young while if Jacobs does go down, it will be a disaster in the ruck.
This is a fair argument - I guess my point is that, assuming we aren't full already, Symes is more than capable of holding an AFL position. Sellar isn't.

To make a clumsy analogy, Symes is a bit like Maric - capable of being an AFL player if the spots are not already filled by better players, and you won't feel like you've got a hole on the field. Not a brilliant player, but not a hole. Whereas Sellar has always felt to me like a hole in the side, who has only been there until we can get anyone else to take his place.

His versatility did give him some currency though so it's a fair argument that we could have retained him for that reason.
 

dylan123

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If there's a younger version of Symes with skills running around in the AFL, he'll go very highly in the draft. Ball magnets with good fitness, courage, and strong bodies who also have good skills are pretty valuable commodities!
I guess that's where me (and most pro/anti Symes people) disagree. If he did have good skills like you said then surly we would have seen more of him over the past few years then we have (unless he really has been injured for most of the games he has missed)?


To make a clumsy analogy, Symes is a bit like Maric - capable of being an AFL player if the spots are not already filled by better players, and you won't feel like you've got a hole on the field. Not a brilliant player, but not a hole. Whereas Sellar has always felt to me like a hole in the side, who has only been there until we can get anyone else to take his place.

His versatility did give him some currency though so it's a fair argument that we could have retained him for that reason.
I agree in a way in which Symes would fit into the side better if he needed a call up over Sellar as he is more experienced and does have some good qualities about him. But at the same time, we have drafted so many players in the last few years to play that position (or have players that can move into that position) which to me feels we have plenty of depth that will push Symes further down the order if we do want to develop our players.


Symes position is mainly on the wing right? The players we have for that position are: Douglas(?), Mackay, Martin, Otten (?), Smith and Tambling. There are probably a couple of others I've missed and some like Brown that I'm not too sure on.

If we look at our KP stocks:

Backs:
- McKernan
- Rutten
- Talia
- L.Thompson
- Lynch

Rucks:
- Jacobs
- Tippett
- Mckernan
- Jenkins
- Dowdell

Forwards:
- Henderson (more of a 3rd tall)
- McKernan
- Tippett
- Walker
- Johnston

Players like McKernan become very important with his versatility to play in any of those positions and if we lose him then we will be in a bit of strife.


Our off season in's/out's for our KP players is:
In: Lynch, Jenkins, Johnston and Dowdell
Out: Craig, Davis, Gunston, Maric, Moran, Sellar, Young, Stevens and Von Bertouch.

Giving us 4 in and 9 out! :eek:


Of course we still have a few drafts to come in which I believe we will get quite a few KP players to balance this up but if they are all 18 year olds we are in a bit of trouble as it normally takes them a couple of years for their bodies to mature enough to be ready for AFL level.

Looking forward to seeing what we have in mind to fill up the depth of these positions in the up and coming draft! :thumbsu:
 

woopedazz

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We had waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too many KP players last season. Our list is more balanced with them gone.
 

spexau

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We might have a midget team!

Defence isn't too bad though. Otten can play on tall and small and Johnston and Lynch you can consider both forward and back.
 

headache1

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Symes is a hospital pass specialist IMO. If he could iron that out of his game, he'd be a decent player. However, given he is 26 now, this is unlikely to happen.
 
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