Review 2011/2012 List Management

Cap

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perhaps, but it still comes back to what is the point of being good at getting yourself into a position to get the ball

but when you do get it, you burn it? so to me, he footy IQ is ok, but hardly something worth writing home for.

o.k struggling to make a maths analogy....perhaps it is like getting all the info to be able to perform a calculation, but being unable to perform it :confused: :D

basically, the consensus seems to be, he is a poor mans Michael Doughty.
 

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Teams let Symes get the ball. He runs to space, they run away from him.
Man up on Symes? Nope. No wonder he gets a ton of it.

We were all seduced by the 2007 grand final (me included) which is now looking increasingly like his Shane Ellen Day.
 

WALL-e

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well to me your basically say he has been taught how to play football.

anyone can be taught to run to a position on a ground at a given point, which is what you are saying is Symes strength.
Anyone can be taught football skills, everyone IS taught football skills. But it's not as easy as saying, run away from the pack now.....ask Danger how hard it can be.

Have to know when to commit to a contest, when to peel off, when to double back, when to switch, how to draw your man in, when to leave your man. It's timing, it's decision making without the ball. Yes it's a skill that can be taught, but so is a 50 meter inverted checkside, yet everyone would fap all weekend over that.
 
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It astounds me how many awesome players we have and how much limited success we actually have.

we've even has someone argue that James Seller should be a Hawthorn stating key defender.

I must have missed the memo why we finished 14th? :eek:
 

Cap

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Anyone can be taught football skills, everyone IS taught football skills. But it's not as easy as saying, run away from the pack now.....ask Danger how hard it can be.

Have to know when to commit to a contest, when to peel off, when to double back, when to switch, how to draw your man in, when to leave your man. It's timing, it's decision making without the ball. Yes it's a skill that can be taught, but so is a 50 meter inverted checkside, yet everyone would fap all weekend over that.
that is all well and good wall-e but if you don't have the ability to use the ball effectively, what is the point?

take Matty J, to me the man has footy smarts in spades, not because he can run to space double back do a one handed handstand but because when he gets the ball, he has the ability to consistently execute the fundamental skills of football - kicking and handpassing to the benefit of the club he is playing for.
 

WALL-e

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It astounds me how many awesome players we have and how much limited success we actually have.

we've even has someone argue that James Seller should be a Hawthorn stating key defender.

I must have missed the memo why we finished 14th? :eek:
Who's talking Symes up as a star? He was quite obviously next in line for the chopping block and had we made one more trade in trade week he was gone.

However, he had a SKILL of finding the the ball, that's what's on debate here, not whether he's a star.
 

WALL-e

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that is all well and good wall-e but if you don't have the ability to use the ball effectively, what is the point?

take Matty J, to me the man has footy smarts in spades, not because he can run to space double back do a one handed handstand but because when he gets the ball, he has the ability to consistently execute the fundamental skills of football - kicking and handpassing to the benefit of the club he is playing for.
I'm not argueing that point. One of my earlier posts state his poor disposal, poor decision making and poor skill are horrible traits for an outside wing.

But I will debate that he doesn't have a 'skill' of finding the ball.
 

Freddy Bassett

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No they can't, some players really struggle with this.

Its about anticipating when to go, and when you go to backyourself in that where you are running to is the right spot.

It is a skill.

Its not as easy as saying, if A) happens run here, If B) happens run there.
Thats a game plan.
Agree with this. Teaching a player where to go is not easy. Some blokes just can not learn. Apart from co-ordination it is right up there with the toughest.

How many 6 foot 2 blokes in amateurs who can run, jump, kick it a mile and couldnt get a kick in a street fight are there? Plenty....
 

Lawrst

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It astounds me how many awesome players we have and how much limited success we actually have.

we've even has someone argue that James Seller should be a Hawthorn stating key defender.

I must have missed the memo why we finished 14th? :eek:
Could be worse, we could have total duds telling us that Shenton could be a good AFL player. Shenton isnt worth symes left foot at SANFL level.

When did anyone say Symes was awesome, just that he is better than what people make him out to be.

And Seller would have been good for Hawthorn this year, easily better than Shoenmakers was in the last half of the year.

We finished 14, Thats it guys, pack it in for 5 years till all of our players are gone because they are all duds!!!!!

Eagles might disagree with you there......
 
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Who's talking Symes up as a star? He was quite obviously next in line for the chopping block and had we made one more trade in trade week he was gone.

However, he had a SKILL of finding the the ball, that's what's on debate here, not whether he's a star.
I didn't indicate Symes, I was just generally speaking but go ahead and put words in my mouth.

Some poster won't ever say a negative thing about any player unless it is staring them in the face.

and BTW - finding the ball is not a skills. It is good game sense. That is not a skills, it is an attribute. Skills are tangible - kicking, batting, catching, throwing, bowing, shooting.

Finding the ball is movement, understanding where to move and pout yourself in the right place. that is an attribute of good game sense.
 

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spexau

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that is all well and good wall-e but if you don't have the ability to use the ball effectively, what is the point?

take Matty J, to me the man has footy smarts in spades, not because he can run to space double back do a one handed handstand but because when he gets the ball, he has the ability to consistently execute the fundamental skills of football - kicking and handpassing to the benefit of the club he is playing for.
The point is that's why he's a fringe player :p

All anyone's been saying is that he's adept at finding the footy but can't use it effectively. Which translates to a guy who will find it hard to cement a spot in the starting 21 because he gets the ball 25 times but burns it 12 times.

Having said that not all of Symes' disposals were terrible loopy kicks. I've seen him kick some nice stingers but they are way, way, way too uncommon to make up for his other deficiencies.
 
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Could be worse, we could have total duds telling us that Shenton could be a good AFL player. Shenton isnt worth symes left foot at SANFL level.
And yet we drafted Milera, Von Bertouch and Roach. Did the last 2 even play league football in 2011? so, stright away, its a step up.

But hay, good on ya champ.
 

WALL-e

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I didn't indicate Symes, I was just generally speaking but go ahead and put words in my mouth.

Some poster won't ever say a negative thing about any player unless it is staring them in the face.

and BTW - finding the ball is not a skills. It is good game sense. That is not a skills, it is an attribute. Skills are tangible - kicking, batting, catching, throwing, bowing, shooting.

Finding the ball is movement, understanding where to move and pout yourself in the right place. that is an attribute of good game sense.
The convo has been on Symes for the last page. If you want to make a blanket statement without reference, then I think it's safe to assume your replying on topic....

We can talk about players negatives, and we do a fair bit. Hell the last two pages are on players poor points. Whole lot of fun this is though. Talking about positives and where they need improvement is a little more constructive, but each to their own.

Yes, knowing where to run is a skill. You're talking about disposal use. If I can fly a plane, that's a skill....if I can list prime numbers up to a billion and one, then that's a skill........albeit useless.

Symes doesn't have disposal skills that are of great quality, but he has intangeble skills that are. Just because a player isn't in the 22 or isn't a star doesn't mean he shouldn't have been picked for the U12's A grade team. He's a talented player because he's skilled in AFL quality areas....just doesn't have enough of certain areas, including disposal skill.

Play reading is a vital part of a recruiting tick box.
 

Cap

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I'm not argueing that point. One of my earlier posts state his poor disposal, poor decision making and poor skill are horrible traits for an outside wing.

But I will debate that he doesn't have a 'skill' of finding the ball.
you've got bigger fish to fry

but the discussion was more that effiecient disposal was part of a good footy IQ

but I'll leave you to argue with the haters :thumbsu:
 

Lawrst

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And yet we drafted Milera, Von Bertouch and Roach. Did the last 2 even play league football in 2011? so, stright away, its a step up.

But hay, good on ya champ.
They were young, still had time to get there.

Shenton? What does he bring that we dont have?
 

Lawrst

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but the discussion was more that effiecient disposal was part of a good footy IQ
Really?

Really?

So because a person cant hit a target means he has bad footy IQ?

again, Really?

He just may not have the skills required (like we know symes doesnt) to hit targets properly. That doesnt effect his football IQ.
 
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The convo has been on Symes for the last page. If you want to make a blanket statement without reference, then I think it's safe to assume your replying on topic....

We can talk about players negatives, and we do a fair bit. Hell the last two pages are on players poor points. Whole lot of fun this is though. Talking about positives and where they need improvement is a little more constructive, but each to their own.
I'm going to make a blanket like statement because this board has a sheep like mentality. As soon as one person goes against the grain, all hell breaks loss because half the people on hear can not think for themselves. Their is obvious exception (5 or 6 different people) but overall, it's a sheep like mentality.

Start thinking for yourself, god damm it and challenge people thoughts, think laterally and analyze what people are posting - not who said it and them automatically say they are a **** wit without even taking the time to read what is written.

And that's why people didn't like Crow_mo (no you idiots*, i'm not comparing me to him), he made people think for themselves and now this board has turned into a great big barn yard.

*not you Wall_E but the idiot who read it automatically feel the need to become heros and shoot me down.

Yes, knowing where to run is a skill. You're talking about disposal use. If I can fly a plane, that's a skill....if I can list prime numbers up to a billion and one, then that's a skill........albeit useless.
How can I be talking about disposal if he hasn't even go the ball yet. Knowing where to run is a (yes i concede that point) a match day skill. It's a skills for having a good game sense.

If he hasn't got it yet, he can not dispose of it.

Symes doesn't have disposal skills that are of great quality, but he has intangeble skills that are. Just because a player isn't in the 22 or isn't a star doesn't mean he shouldn't have been picked for the U12's A grade team. He's a talented player because he's skilled in AFL quality areas....just doesn't have enough of certain areas, including disposal skill.

Play reading is a vital part of a recruiting tick box.
Those intangible game sense skills are enhanced by the players around him. IMO, his disposal is terrible and his game sense skills didn't make us any better of a side. He is the glue. When the system is ready to be placed together, he becomes a very valuable asset but when the puzzle is still in a million different pieces on the ground - he is next to useless to any team.
 
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They were young, still had time to get there.
So now age is a relevant factor? he's 20/21 years old. They were 19 years old - not much difference.

Shenton? What does he bring that we dont have?
what is the point of that. You could say that about the last 12 or 13 players on any list, even before getting to the rookies.

If we are looking at attributes a player brings to the club that we are lacking in, we are doing a ****ing bad job of leaving it to the 4th or 5th rookie listing player. By the time he arrives at the club, all attributes would (should) be covered.

He brings depth, he brings enthusiasm, he brings excitement and most of all - optimism that he can see his dream achieved. The same as any other rookie listing player because that's why that are rookies.
 

Lawrst

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And why should we rookie him over someone like pfeiffer?
 

Lawrst

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what is the point of that. You could say that about the last 12 or 13 players on any list, even before getting to the rookies.

If we are looking at attributes a player brings to the club that we are lacking in, we are doing a ****ing bad job of leaving it to the 4th or 5th rookie listing player. By the time he arrives at the club, all attributes would (should) be covered.
Rookies are just as important as other means of drafting, you get a player because he fills a need. What are our needs, a crumbing forward, Mids who can deliver the football and an outside runner with good footskills. Possibly a KPD.
 
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Rookies are just as important as other means of drafting, you get a player because he fills a need. What are our needs, a crumbing forward, Mids who can deliver the football and an outside runner with good footskills. Possibly a KPD.
You said "to fill a need we don't have" and if we're leaving needs to be filled with rookie listing, we're not doing a good job at it.

crumbing forward: Matthew Wrights, Jarrod Petrentko and Ian Callinan who is already on the rookie list, so why would we draft another crumbing forward?

Mid: yep - we could grab a Darren Pfeiffer with a 1st or 2nd rookie drafting is he's still available.

KPD: Johnston, Lynch, hopefully they rookie list Will Young and we have some depth in that area.

Add Dowdell to the rookie list and we have 4 rookie listing - leaving one or two more.
 

Paladin

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It astounds me how many awesome players we have and how much limited success we actually have.

we've even has someone argue that James Seller should be a Hawthorn stating key defender.

I must have missed the memo why we finished 14th? :eek:
comprehension fail
 
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