Seb Ross, he's from one of the country Vic sides, Jobe Watson's cousin.
Midfielder of some description, dunno much else about him.
Midfielder of some description, dunno much else about him.
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2011 Draft Discussion #2
- Thread starter Grimreepah
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Ross is an inside midfielder but this is about all I know about him, one of the other boys should be able to shed some more light. From what i've read Essendon supporters are hoping they can take him at 19.
I would take Buntine in a heartbeat at 8 if he's still available but I highly doubt it. Regardless of who GWS takes I'm very confident of the quality of kids that will be available at picks 8 and 12 that will fill our needs.
What do people think of us taking a tall at 8 and then just the best avaliable at pick 12 ? I just think if we left Elton GWS will take them in the 9-11 range... Then we could be forced into not taking a tall until pick 30 due to the other talls having a too bigger gap in rankings in terms of Best avaliable ?
Elton at 8 would solve issues for us in the future. He is tall enough to be our ruck/Forward and since he is considered top 10 worthy wouldn't it be a smart pick? I'm no draft expert but I'd be happy with Elton at pick 8 and then a Sumner at 12.
Also what are the prospects of Elliot Kavanagh slipping to 12 you guys think ?
Elton at 8 would solve issues for us in the future. He is tall enough to be our ruck/Forward and since he is considered top 10 worthy wouldn't it be a smart pick? I'm no draft expert but I'd be happy with Elton at pick 8 and then a Sumner at 12.
Also what are the prospects of Elliot Kavanagh slipping to 12 you guys think ?
Filling in the gaps on the above:
At 6 Greene would be my choice for Port but Buntine a chance. I have Buntine falling to 15 atm but I haven't written him up yet and that could change once I review all my notes.
At 8 I would be going with Kavanagh who I think has the highest ceiling of anyone available at that stage and I think we can afford to take the risk.
At 12 I would go with Dobosz in this scenario although Kersten I think would be every chance. I rate those two significantly higher than any of the KPD options so I would take one of those two with 12.
Adams I think had a bit of OP this year and this might cause him to drop a bit. He should still be in the top 20 though. Ross is a reasonable fwd/mid prospect with nice kicking skills. I had him on my watch list going into the Champs but he did not perform as well as I thought he would. I would have him in the second round but he has a few eye catching traits that I could see a team falling for and taking him before that.
At 6 Greene would be my choice for Port but Buntine a chance. I have Buntine falling to 15 atm but I haven't written him up yet and that could change once I review all my notes.
At 8 I would be going with Kavanagh who I think has the highest ceiling of anyone available at that stage and I think we can afford to take the risk.
At 12 I would go with Dobosz in this scenario although Kersten I think would be every chance. I rate those two significantly higher than any of the KPD options so I would take one of those two with 12.
Adams I think had a bit of OP this year and this might cause him to drop a bit. He should still be in the top 20 though. Ross is a reasonable fwd/mid prospect with nice kicking skills. I had him on my watch list going into the Champs but he did not perform as well as I thought he would. I would have him in the second round but he has a few eye catching traits that I could see a team falling for and taking him before that.
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Dom - the problem I think with Elton is that he has really showed stuff all this year and if anything looks to have regressed. He reminds me of Jack Fitzpatrick from a couple of years ago who was thought of as a top 10 before dropping way down the order. I think its not out of the question that Elton could be there at 30 when we pick if we wanted him.
For those who didn't see it last week EQ gave the guys she was hearing about in the top 15. In order they were:
1 Coniglio
2 Patton
3 Tyson
4 Buntine
5 Longer
6 Wingard
7 Hoskin-Elliot
8 Greene
9 Sumner
10 Kavanagh
11 D Smith
12 Tomlinson
13 Kersten
14 Haynes
15 Docherty
Hugely Victorian centric but she is in a better position than me to know what teams are thinking. Admittedly with no Victorian team picking before Richmond at 15 she might not have the mail she usually does.
For those who didn't see it last week EQ gave the guys she was hearing about in the top 15. In order they were:
1 Coniglio
2 Patton
3 Tyson
4 Buntine
5 Longer
6 Wingard
7 Hoskin-Elliot
8 Greene
9 Sumner
10 Kavanagh
11 D Smith
12 Tomlinson
13 Kersten
14 Haynes
15 Docherty
Hugely Victorian centric but she is in a better position than me to know what teams are thinking. Admittedly with no Victorian team picking before Richmond at 15 she might not have the mail she usually does.
POBT
Brownlow Medallist
My comment would be that if you have the Giants taking WHE at #9, it is saying one of a few things:
- GWS don't rate him and would be happy for the Lions to take him at pick 8
- GWS think the Lions don't need/rate him and therefore he will slide past 8, allowing them to snaffle him with picks 9-11
- He is being overrated at the moment by everyone and simply isn't in the best 8 players in the draft.
Based purely on needs, I'd find it very interesting if the Lions had the choice of WHE, Buntine and Sumner at #8 and passed on all 3. However, if all 3 were available at pick 8, then there's a good chance that one of them will still be available at pick 12. But going with 2 mids in the first round doesn't seem to be the right fit to me.
Having said all of that, from my reading of it, Kavanagh seems like a Hadley type of footballer though. We don't lose anything if we get a fit Kavanagh over the other 3. The injuries are the issue though.
- GWS don't rate him and would be happy for the Lions to take him at pick 8
- GWS think the Lions don't need/rate him and therefore he will slide past 8, allowing them to snaffle him with picks 9-11
- He is being overrated at the moment by everyone and simply isn't in the best 8 players in the draft.
Based purely on needs, I'd find it very interesting if the Lions had the choice of WHE, Buntine and Sumner at #8 and passed on all 3. However, if all 3 were available at pick 8, then there's a good chance that one of them will still be available at pick 12. But going with 2 mids in the first round doesn't seem to be the right fit to me.
Having said all of that, from my reading of it, Kavanagh seems like a Hadley type of footballer though. We don't lose anything if we get a fit Kavanagh over the other 3. The injuries are the issue though.
How I rate Kavanagh v WHE
Elliot Kavanagh
DOB 19/5/93 Ht 187 Wt 78
This is a kid who was on a lot of people’s radars coming into the year after averaging 25 disposals, 12 contested possessions and 9 tackles a game in his 4 TAC games for the Western Jets last year. Unfortunately persistent hamstring and knee tendonitis injuries have cruelled his year. He missed all of the Champs and only managed a few games toward the end of the year. He did attend the Combine but I doubt he was at his physical peak and the performances were perhaps a little below what they might otherwise have been. Notwithstanding that he did win the clean hands award with 28/30 equaling the mark set last year by Caddy and Heppell.
Despite the TAC numbers from last year I would not generally consider Kavanagh to be a big possession winner during his junior career nor a big contested ball winner. He plays mostly as a winger where he has shown great dash, skills and decision making. He reminds me a bit of Daisy Thomas and he has that kind of hurt factor about his game. He is capable of winning his own ball when it’s his turn but he is probably an outside in player at the moment rather than the other way around. With that said I could easily see him starting onball as he develops as he does have superb hands being both clean and quick.
He is described by many as being the complete package as a midfielder and when you break it down you can understand why. Physically he has very good height and a build which will fill out nicely. He has good endurance and an really nice burst of pace which he uses regularly during games. With the ball in hand as already mentioned he has high hurt factor. He can break the lines and his option taking is elite. His kicking is good and he puts the ball where he aims it. He has a strong competitive instinct and will get in and mix it up working hard both offensively and defensively. He might be the best tackler of the top group of prospects. He hunts the player, uses his pace well to close them down and then sticks the tackles when he gets his hands on them.
From what little I have seen his work up forward is solid and he seems to have good penetration on his kicking. I am not sure how this has been affected by his injury issues. He is good overhead and shows nice soft hands and good body control in the air. He is not the most dangerous around goal but he is not bad either. In comparing him to Thomas I think he does not have the forward skills that Thomas has although other aspects of his game closely resemble Daisy.
This is a guy with major X factor and provided his body is right he could easily be up there with the best players to come out of this draft. GWS with all their picks may be best placed to take a punt on him but there is major talent there and the pay off could be huge with him.
Wil Hoskin-Elliot
DOB 2/9/93 Ht 182 Wt 73
Has become a bit of a BF favourite especially on the Lions board. Personally I am not as sold as some of my fellows but I like him enough not to drop him down too far. Why I am reluctant to drop him down too much is because of how much his style of play reminds me of Fyfe and every team could use a player like that.
Hoskin-Elliot has a build very reminiscent of Fyfe being very lean with exceptionally long arms. He also specialises in the drifting in from the side and standing in front of the pack style marks. His judgment of the ball in the air whilst he is on the move is superb. He times his arrival at the ball magnificently and takes the ball at its highest point with very nice, soft hands. Even when he doesn’t take the mark he controls the ball to the ground.
Hoskin-Elliott also created a great deal of interest when he broke the previous Combine beep test record. He was beaten by Hill in both the beep test and the 3km run but anytime you go 15.12 in the beep it is something to be very proud of. Take it as a given the kid has elite endurance and unlike most juniors this is not something he needs to improve to compete at AFL level. He also has good pace but he is a step below elite in this category. On the park he has a long loping stride which covers the ground well but he is not as smooth or balanced as you think he might be. He loves to take the game on when he gets the ball and he is pretty good at it if he has open field in front of him. If someone is in front of him he likes to take them on but really he is not very elusive. He does not have much of a step and I think he will run himself into trouble a fair bit at the start of his career. Someone also needs to sort out his bouncing. At the moment he bounces early and often and at speed it all too often does not come back to him.
I do love however what he could do for a team like the Lions defensively through the middle of the ground. His endurance, pace and marking ability allows him to create havoc with teams trying to go long. He will make up for the defensive frailties of other young players around him and he looks born to play in a push zone defense where he can sit back and pick off rushed kicks from defense. Tackling wise he is willing and puts in the effort to chase down players but he can be brushed off a bit at the moment with him arm tackling too much. He does not have the strength at the moment to tackle that way and its likely given his frame he is unlikely to get the strength to do that against AFL players.
Skills wise I would not say he is an elite kick but he does have significant hurt factor. He has reasonable penetration and takes really good options. He doesn’t lose a lot of accuracy at pace which is good given how he likes to play. He can take the ball and be gone and without needing to slow down he can get it where it needs to go before the defenses have time to readjust. He doesn’t mind having a ping for goal but he is not a big goal kicker. He does not have quick hands and I can’t seeing him playing inside much if at all. He is a winger / receiver with limited inside skills.
The big failing of Hoskin-Elliott that I saw from the Champs is not what he did when he got the ball its simply that he did not get enough of it. This is a kid that can run into the ground anyone on any of the opposition teams but he was rarely open to receive the easy ball. He was great taking the spectacular mark but he was not involved nearly enough in the linking plays to enable his team to move the ball easily. He averaged only 14 possessions a game at the Champs and for someone with his endurance that speaks of someone who either is not prepared to work hard enough or does not have the football IQ to run to the right spots. Both of these can be worked on but can be difficult to overcome. There are not a lot of guys who averaged under 15 possessions at the Champs who suddenly go on to be a big possession winner at AFL level and if I am spending a top 10 pick on a winger I want someone who can get plenty of the ball.
So all in all there is a fair bit to like with Hoskin-Elliott but also a few worries. I can’t see him falling outside the top 15 but by the same token if he was there for Richmond I would not be shocked either.
Elliot Kavanagh
DOB 19/5/93 Ht 187 Wt 78
This is a kid who was on a lot of people’s radars coming into the year after averaging 25 disposals, 12 contested possessions and 9 tackles a game in his 4 TAC games for the Western Jets last year. Unfortunately persistent hamstring and knee tendonitis injuries have cruelled his year. He missed all of the Champs and only managed a few games toward the end of the year. He did attend the Combine but I doubt he was at his physical peak and the performances were perhaps a little below what they might otherwise have been. Notwithstanding that he did win the clean hands award with 28/30 equaling the mark set last year by Caddy and Heppell.
Despite the TAC numbers from last year I would not generally consider Kavanagh to be a big possession winner during his junior career nor a big contested ball winner. He plays mostly as a winger where he has shown great dash, skills and decision making. He reminds me a bit of Daisy Thomas and he has that kind of hurt factor about his game. He is capable of winning his own ball when it’s his turn but he is probably an outside in player at the moment rather than the other way around. With that said I could easily see him starting onball as he develops as he does have superb hands being both clean and quick.
He is described by many as being the complete package as a midfielder and when you break it down you can understand why. Physically he has very good height and a build which will fill out nicely. He has good endurance and an really nice burst of pace which he uses regularly during games. With the ball in hand as already mentioned he has high hurt factor. He can break the lines and his option taking is elite. His kicking is good and he puts the ball where he aims it. He has a strong competitive instinct and will get in and mix it up working hard both offensively and defensively. He might be the best tackler of the top group of prospects. He hunts the player, uses his pace well to close them down and then sticks the tackles when he gets his hands on them.
From what little I have seen his work up forward is solid and he seems to have good penetration on his kicking. I am not sure how this has been affected by his injury issues. He is good overhead and shows nice soft hands and good body control in the air. He is not the most dangerous around goal but he is not bad either. In comparing him to Thomas I think he does not have the forward skills that Thomas has although other aspects of his game closely resemble Daisy.
This is a guy with major X factor and provided his body is right he could easily be up there with the best players to come out of this draft. GWS with all their picks may be best placed to take a punt on him but there is major talent there and the pay off could be huge with him.
Wil Hoskin-Elliot
DOB 2/9/93 Ht 182 Wt 73
Has become a bit of a BF favourite especially on the Lions board. Personally I am not as sold as some of my fellows but I like him enough not to drop him down too far. Why I am reluctant to drop him down too much is because of how much his style of play reminds me of Fyfe and every team could use a player like that.
Hoskin-Elliot has a build very reminiscent of Fyfe being very lean with exceptionally long arms. He also specialises in the drifting in from the side and standing in front of the pack style marks. His judgment of the ball in the air whilst he is on the move is superb. He times his arrival at the ball magnificently and takes the ball at its highest point with very nice, soft hands. Even when he doesn’t take the mark he controls the ball to the ground.
Hoskin-Elliott also created a great deal of interest when he broke the previous Combine beep test record. He was beaten by Hill in both the beep test and the 3km run but anytime you go 15.12 in the beep it is something to be very proud of. Take it as a given the kid has elite endurance and unlike most juniors this is not something he needs to improve to compete at AFL level. He also has good pace but he is a step below elite in this category. On the park he has a long loping stride which covers the ground well but he is not as smooth or balanced as you think he might be. He loves to take the game on when he gets the ball and he is pretty good at it if he has open field in front of him. If someone is in front of him he likes to take them on but really he is not very elusive. He does not have much of a step and I think he will run himself into trouble a fair bit at the start of his career. Someone also needs to sort out his bouncing. At the moment he bounces early and often and at speed it all too often does not come back to him.
I do love however what he could do for a team like the Lions defensively through the middle of the ground. His endurance, pace and marking ability allows him to create havoc with teams trying to go long. He will make up for the defensive frailties of other young players around him and he looks born to play in a push zone defense where he can sit back and pick off rushed kicks from defense. Tackling wise he is willing and puts in the effort to chase down players but he can be brushed off a bit at the moment with him arm tackling too much. He does not have the strength at the moment to tackle that way and its likely given his frame he is unlikely to get the strength to do that against AFL players.
Skills wise I would not say he is an elite kick but he does have significant hurt factor. He has reasonable penetration and takes really good options. He doesn’t lose a lot of accuracy at pace which is good given how he likes to play. He can take the ball and be gone and without needing to slow down he can get it where it needs to go before the defenses have time to readjust. He doesn’t mind having a ping for goal but he is not a big goal kicker. He does not have quick hands and I can’t seeing him playing inside much if at all. He is a winger / receiver with limited inside skills.
The big failing of Hoskin-Elliott that I saw from the Champs is not what he did when he got the ball its simply that he did not get enough of it. This is a kid that can run into the ground anyone on any of the opposition teams but he was rarely open to receive the easy ball. He was great taking the spectacular mark but he was not involved nearly enough in the linking plays to enable his team to move the ball easily. He averaged only 14 possessions a game at the Champs and for someone with his endurance that speaks of someone who either is not prepared to work hard enough or does not have the football IQ to run to the right spots. Both of these can be worked on but can be difficult to overcome. There are not a lot of guys who averaged under 15 possessions at the Champs who suddenly go on to be a big possession winner at AFL level and if I am spending a top 10 pick on a winger I want someone who can get plenty of the ball.
So all in all there is a fair bit to like with Hoskin-Elliott but also a few worries. I can’t see him falling outside the top 15 but by the same token if he was there for Richmond I would not be shocked either.
Can't wait for you full mock Quigs, awesome read that. Unlike a lot of other mocks, you go a lot into the downsides, which is always interesting. Don't follow the general trend by BF too.
Just a question, how likely in your opinion, do you think Kavanagh can get his body right, especially in an AFL system (and their resources)?
Just a question, how likely in your opinion, do you think Kavanagh can get his body right, especially in an AFL system (and their resources)?
Kavanagh I think was right at the end of the year and a very cautious approach was taken with him. That encourages me and I haven't heard anything to really worry me about his injuries being chronic. He should be right for a full preseason as I understand although you would expect him to be carefully managed.
I will ask around a bit between now and draft day and will let you know if I hear anything negative.
Quigley do you think Nelson might be a better choice than WHE? He gets more of the ball, good kick, good speed (from what I have been told, I have not seen him)
I certainly would prefer WHE. Nelson would be cheaper certainly but I have some concerns about his option taking. Nice athleticim though.
The Inside Football draft edition came out today. They are giving us Devon Smith at 12 and Tomlinson at 8. This could be 2008 all over again if that happens (aka the Robinson saga). Both those guys I think are overrated significantly to be taken there. The one consolation I have is that if Inside Football has us taking them there is about a 0% chance of it happenning.
The Inside Football draft edition came out today. They are giving us Devon Smith at 12 and Tomlinson at 8. This could be 2008 all over again if that happens (aka the Robinson saga). Both those guys I think are overrated significantly to be taken there. The one consolation I have is that if Inside Football has us taking them there is about a 0% chance of it happenning.
Voss the boss
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thanks or the info quigs - i am really unsure how we will go but having said that will be backing us in either way. I was liking WHE early in the peice but might just sit on the fence now and let the experts do there thing. I woul like to see at least one player with pace and couldn't care to much if they were an all outside player.
tancas
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I think it is our turn to start a injury rumour so a player slides just like Selwood and Heppell.
I'm very close family friend's with Chad Wingard's family and they told me that Chad had chronic back problems.
Spread it..............
I'm very close family friend's with Chad Wingard's family and they told me that Chad had chronic back problems.
Spread it..............
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Yeah... Will Hoskin Elliot has irritable bowel syndrome.
Grimreepah
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Patton has leprosy.
With regard to our first two picks I would be disappointed if we didn't go absolute best available. Needs can change fairly quickly, and often players end up being different sorts of players than what was originally thought
With regard to our first two picks I would be disappointed if we didn't go absolute best available. Needs can change fairly quickly, and often players end up being different sorts of players than what was originally thought
Some great posts and plenty of food for thought. The 3-25 draft order could go any way; with a lot of hyped players slipping deeper down the draft order on draft day.
It seems once you get past GWS's initial couple picks, who really knows what Sheedy and Choco might do. Will they snap up all the best available with their plethora of picks? Or will they draft to their needs? They already have a solid midfield, and this draft is high on midfielders, so I'd be thinking there might be some quality mids available for the Lions at 8 and maybe even 12. But it seems there's a downside to each player - Kavanagh has injury concerns, WHE as mentioned earlier, plus no real stand-out KPP's to warrant a high 8 or 12 pick on...but will players like Frost, Dobosz, Kersten, Paine, Talia etc still be around by pick 30? This will be a tense draft day for us Lions supporters.
Personally, I think the safest choices would be Buntine and Sumner. Be nice to pick up Dobosz, Frost, Talia or Paine at 30, but who knows? Fingers crossed we get somebody good. Of course they have the x factor and incredible potential, but WHE and Kavanagh could become superstars just as easily as duds. And I think the reasons would be from their potential shortcomings evident now. But the same can be said of virtually all the players in this draft.
It seems once you get past GWS's initial couple picks, who really knows what Sheedy and Choco might do. Will they snap up all the best available with their plethora of picks? Or will they draft to their needs? They already have a solid midfield, and this draft is high on midfielders, so I'd be thinking there might be some quality mids available for the Lions at 8 and maybe even 12. But it seems there's a downside to each player - Kavanagh has injury concerns, WHE as mentioned earlier, plus no real stand-out KPP's to warrant a high 8 or 12 pick on...but will players like Frost, Dobosz, Kersten, Paine, Talia etc still be around by pick 30? This will be a tense draft day for us Lions supporters.
Personally, I think the safest choices would be Buntine and Sumner. Be nice to pick up Dobosz, Frost, Talia or Paine at 30, but who knows? Fingers crossed we get somebody good. Of course they have the x factor and incredible potential, but WHE and Kavanagh could become superstars just as easily as duds. And I think the reasons would be from their potential shortcomings evident now. But the same can be said of virtually all the players in this draft.
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So can everyone else in the draft.
whatboutbob
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Welcome aboard 13Beast. 
Re my previous post, undoubtedly there's always a big element of inherent risk with any draft.
After the whole Fevola/Maguire/X Clarke failed recruiting, I'm just petrified about the club making more decisions that are any riskier than they need to be.
Durability is a big part of today's game, and I'm more than a little worried about a kid that relies on his pace for his game (Kavanagh) and has already had hamstring and knee issues before even playing at AFL level.
After the whole Fevola/Maguire/X Clarke failed recruiting, I'm just petrified about the club making more decisions that are any riskier than they need to be.
Durability is a big part of today's game, and I'm more than a little worried about a kid that relies on his pace for his game (Kavanagh) and has already had hamstring and knee issues before even playing at AFL level.
Wish I got a welcome
Can someone tell me who will more than likely be in the top 15 of talls taken ? Or is it really that much in the air for the talls ?
Also I think our midfield is looking pretty Fricken awesome for the next 10 odd years if we draft mids with out pick 8 and 12
Can someone tell me who will more than likely be in the top 15 of talls taken ? Or is it really that much in the air for the talls ?
Also I think our midfield is looking pretty Fricken awesome for the next 10 odd years if we draft mids with out pick 8 and 12
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