2011 Draft Discussion

[3KZ is Football]

Ruckmen Ruckmen Ruckmen. We need to draft a bona fide young ruckmen to develop so that Leuenberger has an understudy. Supplementary to that, we need to try to pick up an established ruckman to do the job of supporting Leuenberger in 2012 / 2013.

I used to like the look of our list when we had Charman, Keating, McDonald and McLaren all on board and all capable of filling the ruck role. I know there have been those who have criticised Matthews for being addicted to big men, but I think he was on the money.

Voss has done an excellent job drafting younger players who can fill the midfield role, now we need to add some height and muscle in the middle and around the ground. After some initial doubts about Leuenberger, I have been rapt with his development and I' sure that if he stays sound, he is going to become one of the competitions leading big men. In order to ensure this and to avoid overloading him, we need to get him some quality support ASAP.

 

[POBT]

I really liked Grigg. I've been seduced by a few others over the past few weeks but I've come back to the bloke I rated from the champs. We need class behind the ball and that's where Grigg could fit in for us. He looks to make very good decisions and is both long and accurate with his kicking. He's played senior footy in the SANFL since he was 16 which is a fair achievement.

He has played a fair bit of reserves footy for Norwood recently although I see he's been named in the Seniors this week. Don't know if you'd get a chance to get there Balony.

 

[Quigley]

Both Offsider and I both like Cabrera quite a lot. Happy to rookie list the young guy. He and Kolka are both reasonable draft prospects I think.

 

[Quigley]

I really liked Grigg. I've been seduced by a few others over the past few weeks but I've come back to the bloke I rated from the champs. We need class behind the ball and that's where Grigg could fit in for us. He looks to make very good decisions and is both long and accurate with his kicking. He's played senior footy in the SANFL since he was 16 which is a fair achievement.

He has played a fair bit of reserves footy for Norwood recently although I see he's been named in the Seniors this week. Don't know if you'd get a chance to get there Balony.

I also think Tyson might play off the HBF if we picked him.

 

[whatboutbob]

Could this have influenced our decision to use the Harbrow Compensation Pick this year at all as well as in preference to the Rischa Compensation Pick?

Are you suggesting that because the bulldogs were likely to finish higher on the ladder than us this year and next year that it was worth less than the rischa compo pick, so we opted to use it first?

I'm not convinced Quigs is right on this one. I was under the impression that the pick's value is aligned with the final recipient's ladder finish.

On a slightly related tangent, bear in mind that the Brennan compo pick (now with GC) is officially worth less than all other band 3 compo picks because it was for a second player (which seems a bit ass-backwards to me - I'd have thought the compounded screwing should have meant the club was better compensated).

Kerr's comments on the matter:

Trading the compensation pick we received for Jared back to the Gold Coast was an important factor in elevating ourselves up the draft order from Pick No.10 to Pick No.5. It’s important to note that because Jared was the second uncontracted player to join the Gold Coast from the Lions, his compensation pick falls behind all other end of first round compensation picks. Furthermore, in 2011 it will fall behind all end of first round picks received for losing a player to Greater Western Sydney.

Therefore, while it was still a valuable pick, it was not as valuable as the compensation picks received for Michael Rischitelli or Jarrod Harbrow (which the Club secured as part of the Justin Sherman trade).

 

[Tassie4ever]

Contrary to most of the posts above, my strong, very strong preference would be a ruckman.

I don't think most realise just how vulnerable we are with our ruck position. If Leuenberger went down, just who would get the first ruck gig? The reality we would be in deep doo doo.

Trust me, my observations are that neither of the 2 Mac's are ready, and that's if they ever will be. IMHO, while I recognise rucks take time to mature, I seriously doubt whether either of them will make the grade. Soory if this may seem too harsh, but that's my opinion.

Proof? As recent backup to the Berger, rather than either of the 2 Mac's we have an undergraduate Irishman who has played our game only a few years, and is still very raw. Niall is doing very well in this role, but a long-term proposition as a ruck he ain't.

With our injury record, I know my heart was in my mouth every time the Berger hit the turf.

 

[whatboutbob]

Contrary to most of the posts above, my strong, very strong preference would be a ruckman.

Yeah, that's partly why I've been musing about Longer potentially slipping to us if GWS takes a calculated risk. I think if he did we'd take him, much to the chagrin of many on here, no doubt.

Apart from Longer though I don't see any other rucks worth reaching for with our first rounder.

Interesting to note that Freo's Griffin to Port is sounding like a strong possibility...

 

[POBT]

Do you need two elite ruckmen on your list? If we take Longer, we're selecting the best ruck of his age. We did that in 2006 which isn't that long ago. If Longer develops as a quality ruck, then we've got a lot of talent as a second stringer.

I definitely acknowledge the need for at least one more ruckman on the list and would advocate taking one with any of our next picks. But taking one with our first pick seems to me to be a bad move.

Of course, I'm assuming that clubs will continue to not play 2 pure rucks each week which might be a false assumption to make.

A ruck-forward is a different story. Purely on need, I think Elton is the best fit for us if Clark leaves.

In fact, this realisation that we're exposed in the ruck just highlights how valuable even a half interested Clark is. McCauley suffices as a 3rd ruck whilst we develop a project player. But if Clark leaves, and McCauley is the main understudy to Leuey, we look really weak. Clark, for all his faults, is very good insurance for our list.

 

[Balony_pony16]

Do you need two elite ruckmen on your list? If we take Longer, we're selecting the best ruck of his age. We did that in 2006 which isn't that long ago. If Longer develops as a quality ruck, then we've got a lot of talent as a second stringer.

I definitely acknowledge the need for at least one more ruckman on the list and would advocate taking one with any of our next picks. But taking one with our first pick seems to me to be a bad move.

Of course, I'm assuming that clubs will continue to not play 2 pure rucks each week which might be a false assumption to make.

A ruck-forward is a different story. Purely on need, I think Elton is the best fit for us if Clark leaves.

In fact, this realisation that we're exposed in the ruck just highlights how valuable even a half interested Clark is. McCauley suffices as a 3rd ruck whilst we develop a project player. But if Clark leaves, and McCauley is the main understudy to Leuey, we look really weak. Clark, for all his faults, is very good insurance for our list.

If Clark goes to freo then we will surely get their 1st pick (#13)...You would think the Lions would target Elton with that pick...if available of coarse.

 

[Balony_pony16]

Contrary to most of the posts above, my strong, very strong preference would be a ruckman.

I don't think most realise just how vulnerable we are with our ruck position. If Leuenberger went down, just who would get the first ruck gig? The reality we would be in deep doo doo.

Trust me, my observations are that neither of the 2 Mac's are ready, and that's if they ever will be. IMHO, while I recognise rucks take time to mature, I seriously doubt whether either of them will make the grade. Soory if this may seem too harsh, but that's my opinion.

Proof? As recent backup to the Berger, rather than either of the 2 Mac's we have an undergraduate Irishman who has played our game only a few years, and is still very raw. Niall is doing very well in this role, but a long-term proposition as a ruck he ain't.

With our injury record, I know my heart was in my mouth every time the Berger hit the turf.

I think the GWS will snap up Longer pretty early and before our pick #8 so we wont have the option. Im sure we will look at ruck options with our later picks in the 20-30's

 

[Bucking Beads]

If we lose Clark would it be worth using a later pick to trade in some size up forward or in the ruck?

 

[Balony_pony16]

If we lose Clark would it be worth using a later pick to trade in some size up forward or in the ruck?

any ideas...Hawkins could come cheap

 

[Balony_pony16]

I really liked Grigg. I've been seduced by a few others over the past few weeks but I've come back to the bloke I rated from the champs. We need class behind the ball and that's where Grigg could fit in for us. He looks to make very good decisions and is both long and accurate with his kicking. He's played senior footy in the SANFL since he was 16 which is a fair achievement.

He has played a fair bit of reserves footy for Norwood recently although I see he's been named in the Seniors this week. Don't know if you'd get a chance to get there Balony.

The SANFL finals is what I will check out...I want to see how he playes on the big stage infront of a big crowd.

Only a couple of weeks away

 

[POBT]

If Clark goes to freo then we will surely get their 1st pick (#13)...You would think the Lions would target Elton with that pick...if available of coarse.

That would be a good outcome if Clark were to go.

 

[POBT]

any ideas...Hawkins could come cheap

I'm OK with chasing Hawkins. I could see Geelong using him as part of a GWS mini-draft deal but if he were offered, I'd think about it as our ruck-forward solution. There's a bit of Leigh Brown in his development, IMO. Manchild who is taking forever to work out senior footy.

 

[Quigley]

Longer played as a forward mostly in the Champs last year and did very well I thought. I would rate him a better forward/ruck option than Elton.

 

[Balony_pony16]

Longer played as a forward mostly in the Champs last year and did very well I thought. I would rate him a better forward/ruck option than Elton.

I didnt notice his forward work in the finals...he look awesome in ruck though. How did his forward work go? Is a a lead up or body up type?

 

[Quigley]

Given he was a bottom aged player he was giving away a bit of strength but he was pretty good on the lead. He is surprisingly quick and can get good separation. He knows what he is doing as well and usually lead to good spots. Overhead he is solid without being spectacular. His kicking for goal was average from what I saw (that is neither particularly good or bad). Overall I think he would be a fair forward prospect (in addition to be an excellent ruck prospect). For a player comparison as a forward I would suggest Vickery of Richmond.

 

[borrat]

MUST be a mid at pick 8 prefferably whe just because brisbane are still slower than wet week although certainly wouldnt be pissed off with grigg or tyson

and of course a small forward

and is next years "super" draft both mids and talls or one or the other?

 

[3KZ is Football]

Do you need two elite ruckmen on your list?

Yep. Even leaving possible injuries to Leuenberger to one side, with a second elite ruckman we have the capacity to really work sides over, while reducing the overall workload that Leuenberger has to carry.

One only needs to look at top 4 side like West Coast to see how much flexibility and power they have developed since Nic Naitanui has joined Dean Cox in the ruck. Then there is Hawthorn, who have three genuine ruckmen in Bailey, Hale and Renouf, while Geelong have Ottens, Vardy and West.

In my view, having only one genuine ruckman is a little like having half a genuine midfield and trying to make the balance up with wingmen, half forward or half back flankers. You might get away with it for a while, but long term you are going to get caught out. The last thing I want to see is Brisbane in a position where they are having to rely on blokes in the ruck who really aren't up to it.

 

[notting18]

One only needs to look at top 4 side like West Coast to see how much flexibility and power they have developed since Nic Naitanui has joined Dean Cox in the ruck. Then there is Hawthorn, who have three genuine ruckmen in Bailey, Hale and Renouf, while Geelong have Ottens, Vardy and West.

I'd question if any of those ruckman are elite bar Ottens.

I think you need the following ruckmen like Geelong - an elite one (Ottens), a reliable back up (West), an up and comer (Vardy) and a rookie (Simpson).

West Coast are a bit of a unique situation as Natanui and Cox are so agile.

 

[3KZ is Football]

I'd question if any of those ruckman are elite bar Ottens.

I think you need the following ruckmen like Geelong - an elite one (Ottens), a reliable back up (West), an up and comer (Vardy) and a rookie (Simpson).

West Coast are a bit of a unique situation as Natanui and Cox are so agile.

I see what you are saying, but the point is that Hawthorn and Geelong are giving themselves a chance to have two elite ruckmen by not only having a number of genuine ruckmen on their lists, but by putting games into them.

Carlton are another good example with Warnock, Kreuzer and Hampson on their list.

As I said earlier, it was not that long ago that we had Charman, Keating, McDonald and McLaren on our list and I think that a similar degree of depth in the ruck department would be something to aim for.

P.S. I think I might be showing my age and perhaps the modern game is different, but as Jack Dyer put it, "A good big man will always beat a good little man, unless the little man is very very good."

 

[borrat]

Yep. Even leaving possible injuries to Leuenberger to one side, with a second elite ruckman we have the capacity to really work sides over, while reducing the overall workload that Leuenberger has to carry.

One only needs to look at top 4 side like West Coast to see how much flexibility and power they have developed since Nic Naitanui has joined Dean Cox in the ruck. Then there is Hawthorn, who have three genuine ruckmen in Bailey, Hale and Renouf, while Geelong have Ottens, Vardy and West.

In my view, having only one genuine ruckman is a little like having half a genuine midfield and trying to make the balance up with wingmen, half forward or half back flankers. You might get away with it for a while, but long term you are going to get caught out. The last thing I want to see is Brisbane in a position where they are having to rely on blokes in the ruck who really aren't up to it.

they also won a premiership with shit talls and an awesome midfield as well

 

[3KZ is Football]

they also won a premiership with shit talls and an awesome midfield as well

Is that the recipe for success then? Recruit substandard or play substandard players in the ruck to support Leuenberger? Just develop our midfield group?

I don't think so.

 

[dlanod]

I agree with 3KZ that we want depth, but I'd pass on having two elite ruckmen if it meant we missed out in other positions. I'd be happy with a ruck contingent of Leuenberger, McCauley, promising youngster drafted this year, speculative rookie. It might not be ready to stand up to a couple of injuries this year coming, but should be good in another couple of years.