Review 2011 - Redo the 2011 AFL Draft

Prochard123

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My point remains that disposal efficiency is not a good indicator of kicking quality. Take the Crows season...

Jake Kelly the highest on 85% is one of the least damaging kicks in our side so nearly always takes the short safe option.

Followed by other defenders who usually take the safe options - Cheney 83%, Brown 83%, Otten 81%, Talia 81% & Doedee 81%.

Meanwhile our players who have the ability to take the riskier kicks to setup attacks have lower DE - Milera 79%, Smith 77%, Seedsman 72% & Atkins 72%. These 4 players have far better kicking skills than the first group of defenders as are our playmakers.
The entire foundation of the argument I've read here is that different type of players' DE cannot be compared straight away. Taking away where Adams (on the bench when not on-ball, whoever stated he rotates through defence has absolutely no idea) and Smith (partially in forward line, partially on the bench) spend their secondary minutes, they both play the grunt inside midfielder.

Sure you can make exceptions and show contradictory evidences from the back-half, but the same logic doesn't apply for players who are both midfielders. You said disposal efficiency is not a good indicator of kicking quality, but you have to admit despite its flaws its still a whole lot better than Judd2Sewell's opinion/useless personal eye test.

Regardless, my original opinion is that with Smith and Adams both being terrible to poor disposers of the footy, Adams being the superior ball/clearance winner/contested possession winner is clearly the better player. You all need to chill out especially pricey and martin :moustache:
 

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Ambrosia

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The entire foundation of the argument I've read here is that different type of players' DE cannot be compared straight away. Taking away where Adams (on the bench when not on-ball, whoever stated he rotates through defence has absolutely no idea) and Smith (partially in forward line, partially on the bench) spend their secondary minutes, they both play the grunt inside midfielder.

Sure you can make exceptions and show contradictory evidences from the back-half, but the same logic doesn't apply for players who are both midfielders. You said disposal efficiency is not a good indicator of kicking quality, but you have to admit despite its flaws its still a whole lot better than Judd2Sewell's opinion/useless personal eye test.

Regardless, my original opinion is that with Smith and Adams both being terrible to poor disposers of the footy, Adams being the superior ball/clearance winner/contested possession winner is clearly the better player. You all need to chill out especially pricey and martin :moustache:
Except Taylor Adams and Devon Smith's kick to handball ratios aren't similar so Adams DE is lifted by the fact he kicks the ball proportionally less.
 

Isaac Cumming No 1

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Except Taylor Adams and Devon Smith's kick to handball ratios aren't similar so Adams DE is lifted by the fact he kicks the ball proportionally less.
There are a lot of other factors as well. What Kane McGoodwin says is valid. You would expect an average kicker to push the envelope less.

Another example is people criticise Haynes' and Shiel's kicking for us. Both are often cleaning up loose balls in the back 50 and roosting it out of the danger zone at times. It's pretty obviously not ideal but under pressure it is clearly the team instruction.
 

RedmanWasHere

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Yeah Neale, Wingard, Mitchell, Yeo and Coniglio are the clear 5.

And whichever plonker had Michael Talia in the top few players had no clue.

That off-season recruiting spree doesn't immediately scream star-studded.

Rory Laird and Jack Crisp as rookies were fantastic choices.
 

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Except Taylor Adams and Devon Smith's kick to handball ratios aren't similar so Adams DE is lifted by the fact he kicks the ball proportionally less.
Devon: Attempts tricky passes into the forward line, 60% average success rate.
Adams: Attempts 20m kicks, still ****s them up most of the time.

You don't need to see D/E stats to know that Devon is a much better kick of the footy, you only need to watch them both. Devon has always been an excellent user of the ball and Adams is nicknamed the butcher for good reason.
 

Judd2Sewell

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Devon: Attempts tricky passes into the forward line, 60% average success rate.
Adams: Attempts 20m kicks, still ****s them up most of the time.

You don't need to see D/E stats to know that Devon is a much better kick of the footy, you only need to watch them both. Devon has always been an excellent user of the ball and Adams is nicknamed the butcher for good reason.
But I've been told that I'm wrong, despite what I (we) have quite plainly witness on many occasions.
 

TallyHawk

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Hill has never been anything more than a decent player.

Actually nvm, the bolded line just deprived u of any sort of credibility.

A premier wingman is someone like Gaff, Sidebottom, Whitfield, Macrae, Hannebury (seasons ago). Hill is not even remotely close to these guys.

Hill has had 0 good seasons.
You do realize Brad Hill won the BnF (Doig Medal) at Fremantle and was massive factor during the Hawks 3peat. He does so much unrewarded running and his forward entries are excellent. Give me Brad Hill ahead of Taylor Adams every day of the week. You mention Hanners, well he couldn't even catch Hill.


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Prochard123

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You do realize Brad Hill won the BnF (Doig Medal) at Fremantle and was massive factor during the Hawks 3peat. He does so much unrewarded running and his forward entries are excellent. Give me Brad Hill ahead of Taylor Adams every day of the week. You mention Hanners, well he couldn't even catch Hill.


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Hill was good in 2017, but literally every year he's been nothing more than mediocre. Tell me how much it hurt you guys to lose Hill? It made you substantially worse right?

Adams would be the 2nd best midfielder at the Hawks ahead of all of O'meara, Shiels and Worpel.

Just about every somewhat credible source has Adams completely ahead of Hill in just about every format.

Brownlow votes, Supercoach, Dreamteam, AFL player rating (Adams is 31st), Theroar top 50 players (Adams is 38th).

Hill does alot of unrewarding running? You mean that's just about the only thing going for him to stay in the AFL right? He's completely liable defensively, easily pushed off the contests and is very similar to Aaron hall but just less damaging.

The AFL player rating is not perfect, I agree with that. However, at least it's an official source with indisputable statistics backing it up, instead of highly biased opinions formed from a couple of guys watching TV on the couch. And according to AFL player rating, Adams is 3rd from this draft behind Tom Mitchell and Lachie Neale. Tell me why the opinion of a supporter of his own team's player trumps the credibility of an official rating? I would personally put Adams a fair bit lower, but Hill doesn't even deserve to clean Adams' shoes for him.
 

TallyHawk

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I like others on here believe Adams butchers the footy. No way is he better than O’Meara.

You stated Hill had 0 good seasons I pointed out his 2017 bnf. I also pointed out he’s was instrumental in the 3peat. So much so we realised how good he was when he left and it’s a role we have struggled to fill.

You then point to a rating system that places Adams ahead of Coniglio and Wingard. I watch enough footy to realise that is bs.


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Prochard123

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I like others on here believe Adams butchers the footy. No way is he better than O’Meara.

You stated Hill had 0 good seasons I pointed out his 2017 bnf. I also pointed out he’s was instrumental in the 3peat. So much so we realised how good he was when he left and it’s a role we have struggled to fill.

You then point to a rating system that places Adams ahead of Coniglio and Wingard. I watch enough footy to realise that is bs.


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Kicking ability isn’t the only parameter to judge a players ability, if the game is purely on that, none of Fyfe, Dangerfield or Oliver would be top 10/15 players in the comp. They excel because of how prolific they are around the contests, similar how Adams has O’meara well covered in this area, which is the primary role for an inside mid.

The fact that you do not have his area covered is more because of your drafting strategy if anything, rather than hill being exceptional.

Finally, as I repeated many times, none of these rating system is perfect, each of them is bound to rate some over others due to different preferences. But the fact that ALL of them has Adams several tiers ahead of Hill says something.
 

Judd2Sewell

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Kicking ability isn’t the only parameter to judge a players ability, if the game is purely on that, none of Fyfe, Dangerfield or Oliver would be top 10/15 players in the comp. They excel because of how prolific they are around the contests, similar how Adams has O’meara well covered in this area, which is the primary role for an inside mid.

The fact that you do not have his area covered is more because of your drafting strategy if anything, rather than hill being exceptional.

Finally, as I repeated many times, none of these rating system is perfect, each of them is bound to rate some over others due to different preferences. But the fact that ALL of them has Adams several tiers ahead of Hill says something.
In short - Hawthorn's entire gameplan relied on movement to open up space, to allow for the fast precision passing. Hill, Smith and Birchall were the three key figures in running to open up the space, providing link-up options and moving the ball forward at speed with their great skills.

Without Hill and Smith in particular the team was much more stagnant and easier to stop.

Yes Hill is a limited player, but what he does do he is elite at - that being his speed, tank, ability to make space and line-up, and his kicking on the run.

As for Hill v Adams, well of course Adams is rated higher despite his lack of skills. He's a true leader and a hard-nosed player.
 

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