Opinion 2011 Top 50

[jabbers]

Doesn't say who players go with after the bounce (i.e. other stoppages).
I don't have the ability to rewatch the match at the moment. I could tomorrow night but I'd have to drag myself away from A Dance With Dragons to watch a Collingwood win (again!). Hmm, not a gluton for torture! However, I will get around to it at some stage and comment on the matchup (it may well be that you are right but I thought Pendlebury and Judd were playing close quite a lot yesterday - not arrogant enough to suggest that this is irrefutable).

Good work, great dedication. I'd be interested to note the number of times Pendlebury is involved in play directly after a Carlton goal.

 

[blues4flag]

And I would agree with all of that.
However, the last three weeks:

Judd
-----------
Murphy

Judd really has taken his game to another level and is playing better than Murphy. Murphy is not that far ahead of Judd that he is a certainty for the B&F. Judd will have to play out of his skin but he has done that for many years as the year moves towards September.

So not saying it is likely, merely wouldn't be surprised.

Judd's ahead over the past 3 weeks but not by much. Murphy will end up having polled 9-10 votes over that period according to the Carlton board posters, whereas Judd will have 12.

Been doing the count for 3 years now and Murphy's current form is unprecedented. He's likely polled in 9 games straight (yet to collate this week's votes but he'll pick up 1 or 2) - highest previous is 5 or 6 from memory. He averaged 4.125 votes per game in the 8 weeks prior to this weekend.

He'll be on 49/50 votes after this weekend, from 16 games. Judd managed 58 from 20 games last year, which Murphy should break quite comfortably on current form.

Our B&F voting system rewards consistency and Murphy has had far less quiet games than Judd has. In fact:
Top 5:
Murphy: 13
Judd: 10

Top 3:
Murphy: 11
Judd: 6

Top 2:
Murphy: 8
Judd: 4

BOG:
Murphy: 5
Judd: 2

Absolutely no doubt in mind that Murphy should be our B&F at this stage of the season, and clearly. Most definitely deserved after finishing 3rd, 2nd and 2nd in the past three seasons.

 

[eaglespremiers]

Judd's ahead over the past 3 weeks but not by much. Murphy will end up having polled 9-10 votes over that period according to the Carlton board posters, whereas Judd will have 12.

Been doing the count for 3 years now and Murphy's current form is unprecedented. He's likely polled in 9 games straight (yet to collate this week's votes but he'll pick up 1 or 2) - highest previous is 5 or 6 from memory. He averaged 4.125 votes per game in the 8 weeks prior to this weekend.

He'll be on 49/50 votes after this weekend, from 16 games. Judd managed 58 from 20 games last year, which Murphy should break quite comfortably on current form.

Our B&F voting system rewards consistency and Murphy has had far less quiet games than Judd has. In fact:
Top 5:
Murphy: 13
Judd: 10

Top 3:
Murphy: 11
Judd: 6

Top 2:
Murphy: 8
Judd: 4

BOG:
Murphy: 5
Judd: 2

Absolutely no doubt in mind that Murphy should be our B&F at this stage of the season, and clearly. Most definitely deserved after finishing 3rd, 2nd and 2nd in the past three seasons.

While I actually think Judd will end up with more BOGs than Murphy I agree that Murphy has been the most consistent of the two (in fact, he's probably the most consistent player in the competition). As such, I take your point. B&Fs award consistency and Murphy would have to have a month of poor games (worse than Saturday's) and Judd a month of quality games (as good as Saturday) for Judd to win the B&F.

Also Murphy should win the B&F this year. Having said that I don't think Murphy's last three weeks are comparable to Judd's last three (Rd 15 - Judd BOG; Rd 16 - Judd beat Boyd for 3 quarters and it was only in the last quarter that Boyd did some damage. Some will say Murphy was better, but, he did turn the ball over quite a bit; Rd 17 - Judd easily Carlton's best and a handful of other Carlton mids better than Murphy). I don't know what your scoring system for Carlton B&F is but I would imagine Judd would get the maximum votes in Rds 15 and Rd 17 and would be in the top 3 for Rd 16 (juggle between Judd, Murphy and Gibbs). Doubt Murphy will get votes in Rds 15 or 17 unless you are going beyond a 5, 4, 3, 2, 1.

 

[AG]

I'll update this tonight.

Barnzy or any other Richmond poster, where do Deledio and Martin sit? Unsure on those two.

 

[Barnzy]

I'll update this tonight.

Barnzy or any other Richmond poster, where do Deledio and Martin sit? Unsure on those two.

Hard to say. Deledio along with Cotchin, has been our most consistent player. Martin probably has a bigger impact than both but is less consistent given it's his 2nd year and is having a down patch the last 3-4 weeks.

I still think Deledio is underrated on BF and even the media or maybe I'm just being biased and don't see what others do. He averages 25 touches as a HBF'er who pushes into the midfield but unlike a lot of the other HBF's he doesn't really get involved in the chip to chip in D50 to boost his stats (hence his lower mark tally than the likes of Shaw and Enright). Gets it mostly through run and carry and when you add on top of that elite kicking and pace I'm bemused when I see players like Hurn, Davis, Johncock, etc added in front of him in the AA thread.

I think his reputation suffers from playing in a poor team his whole career whereas the likes of Martin and Cotchin are still relatively new. It's certainly not his fault Richmond have been so bad. In your list I'd have him high 20's or low 30's but it's up to you.

As for Martin, as I mentioned has a huge impact but has fallen off the pace the last few weeks. Earlier in the season probably playing as high as a top 15-20 player, now I'd have him on the fringe of the 50.

 

[AG]

Thanks.

I'll play around with the 30-50 range again. I was happy enough with the top 30 last week.

Deledio will stay in and go up I guess because I punted him down fairly quickly. Martin out. Guys like Nahas having handy seasons as well it seems.

 

[GordonGecko]

The sign of a good player is to make those around him better.

Deledio rarely does this, he gets alot of uncontested ball and for some reason he is handballing alot this season.

Deledio averaging 25+ possies a game should equate to more Tigs wins, it doesnt, why?

He simply doesnt get the ball in dangerous spots, he's happy to pick up the stats sideways and behind the ball.

He's got all the tools, rarely impacts matches.

 

[AG]

So Pavlich was shit for most of the 2000's then?

 

[George Washington]

Interesting that Essendon only has the one in Watson (who really hasn't played great since round 8 or so) and yet are above a lot of the other teams with multiple entries.

Not saying its wrong, just interesting.

 

[mdc]

So Pavlich was shit for most of the 2000's then?

Pavlich did make those around him better. Whether his team won or not is besides the point.

I hate to agree with GG, but it's a fair point with Deledio. He's a solid straight line player, but he hardly brings other players into the game the way Enright does, for example, or even Scotland/Davis to a lesser extent.

 

[Barnzy]

Deledio averaging 25+ possies a game should equate to more Tigs wins, it doesnt, why?

Oh dear, oh dear. Where did you come up with this magic formula? This just proves (once again) you have no idea.

Even if Deledio plays a blinder and add Cotchin and Martin it only means we remain semi competitive against only average teams. Because after those top 3-5 players, add in Riewoldt (when not injured and in form) and a couple of others it's just kids or shit.

He simply doesnt get the ball in dangerous spots, he's happy to pick up the stats sideways and behind the ball.

This is why he's put the ball inside 50 67 times this year (4.4 times a game). About the same as a lot of the best mids. Only 3 times less than Chris Judd your lover at 70 (4.7 times a game), Pendles (4.6), etc. So much for not getting it in "dangerous spots" and is happy to pick up stats "sideways and behind the ball" this also despite the fact his mark tally is down on other HBF'ers like Shaw and Enright because they play more chip to chip across D50 than he does. I'm convinced you hardly even watch him play.

I hate to agree with GG, but it's a fair point with Deledio. He's a solid straight line player, but he hardly brings other players into the game the way Enright does, for example, or even Scotland/Davis to a lesser extent.

Umm, yes he does. How many Richmond games do you see? Deledio is constantly bringing others into the game. In fact sometimes he's even too unselfish.

If he played for Collingwood he would already have 2-3 AA awards and you can quote me on that. Harry O'Brien lol.

 

[mdc]

Umm, yes he does. How many Richmond games do you see? Deledio is constantly bringing others into the game. In fact sometimes he's even too unselfish.

I see plenty. It's nothing to do with selfishness I either, I'm not saying he's a stat hog or anything. It's just some players are able to be creative with the ball and bring others around them into the game, others don't. Heath Shaw from Collingwood would be another who, like Deledio, is a very straight line player offensively and doesn't really improve those around him (Shaw's much better defensively though obviously).

If he played for Collingwood he would already have 2-3 AA awards and you can quote me on that. Harry O'Brien lol.

I'm happy to quote you, but given Clement only had 2 AA playing for Collingwood, I get the feeling Deledio might have struggled.

O'Brien got in because he's a terrific defender of mediums/smalls. Richmond don't have a decent medium/small forward, so you wouldn't understand his value. Ask WC supporters what they think of Harry's work on LeCras, or ask Carlton supporters how Betts goes against him, etc

 

[GordonGecko]

So Pavlich was shit for most of the 2000's then?

Pavlich was All Australian 6 times in the 2000's and he absolutely made those around him better.

Silly attempt.

 

[Barnzy]

I see plenty. It's nothing to do with selfishness I either, I'm not saying he's a stat hog or anything. It's just some players are able to be creative with the ball and bring others around them into the game, others don't. Heath Shaw from Collingwood would be another who, like Deledio, is a very straight line player offensively and doesn't really improve those around him (Shaw's much better defensively though obviously).

Well if you do see plenty Richmond games it's a very weird opinion but each to their own.

Far from a straight line player and probably our most creative player by hand and foot.

I'm happy to quote you, but given Clement only had 2 AA playing for Collingwood, I get the feeling Deledio might have struggled.

Different roles.

 

[HyperAgressiveDonk]

I

I'm happy to quote you, but given Clement only had 2 AA playing for Collingwood, I get the feeling Deledio might have struggled.

O'Brien got in because he's a terrific defender of mediums/smalls. Richmond don't have a decent medium/small forward, so you wouldn't understand his value. Ask WC supporters what they think of Harry's work on LeCras, or ask Carlton supporters how Betts goes against him, etc

Deledio is a much better footballer and has more talent in his little finger than both O'Brien & Clement do in their whole bodies, but he has to rectify certain issues in his game.

Deledio is soft defensively, doesn't win enough contested ball, goes mising when the heat is on and doesn't get to enough contests in the air and on the ground. I think it's a testament to the ability Deledio has, that he is still a Top 50 player in the comp ( or close too ), despite all his obvious shortcomings.

I think if Deledio wasn't playing for Richmond, and was playing under a better coach at a better club, a lot of his shortcomings would have been addressed by now and he would be a Top 20 player in the competition.

 

[robertg22]

Not sure how much football you saw of Clement. He's close to the best defender I've seen at my club and one of the best I've seen overall. Massively underrated footballer.

 

[HyperAgressiveDonk]

Not sure how much football you saw of Clement. He's close to the best defender I've seen at my club and one of the best I've seen overall. Massively underrated footballer.

I saw a lot of Clement and he is a very good stopper and a decent footballer. But someone like Deledio is a blue chip player, a bloke who is capable of racking up 4 or 5 AAs in his career.

Maybe my comment about the little finger is a bit off, but I was just trying to make the point that Deledio is a wasted talent for all the tools he has.

 

[GordonGecko]

The excuse of players around Deledio halting his progress is a bit of a cop out.

Pavlich played with plebs but was still shining, often in key positions.

Alot of excuses are made for Deledio, perhaps that's why he doesnt seem to extend himself.

 

[mdc]

I saw a lot of Clement and he is a very good stopper and a decent footballer. But someone like Deledio is a blue chip player, a bloke who is capable of racking up 4 or 5 AAs in his career.

It's been a few weeks now donk, time to let the healing begin.

 

[HyperAgressiveDonk]

It's been a few weeks now donk, time to let the healing begin.

Hehe, I was over it at half time!

Just saying I think Deledio is a much more talented footballer than either O'Brien or Clement. Do you agree?

 

[StringyDog]

. In your list I'd have him high 20's or low 30's but it's up to you.

lol, 40-45 at absolute best, quite a long way behind the top 25-30 players this year, he does get underated by some like Gecko, but you are on the other side on spectrum and highly overate him through bias.

 

[Barnzy]

lol, 40-45 at absolute best, quite a long way behind the top 25-30 players this year, he does get underated by some like Gecko, but you are on the other side on spectrum and highly overate him through bias.

You're another who I see constantly trolling Deledio/Richmond so can take your opinion with a grain of salt.

 

[GordonGecko]

You're another who I see constantly trolling Deledio/Richmond so can take your opinion with a grain of salt.

Here's a simple question, who's had a better year.

Fyfe or Deledio?

 

[Barnzy]

Here's a simple question, who's had a better year.

Fyfe or Deledio?

Pretty silly question that seems to have no relevance other than to pump up your own clubs players.

Fyfe, obviously.

 

[GordonGecko]

Pretty silly question that seems to have no relevance other than to pump up your own clubs players.

Fyfe, obviously.

Good to know you are not completely bias.