2012 draft

[UpTheGuts]

It looks to me as though we'll be getting either Vlastuin or Macrae, I'm pretty confident in saying that.

So people, Vlastuin or Macrae?

You're saying this presuming Grundy and O'Rourke are off the table I'm guessing

I would prefer macrae.
The degree to which I am pleased with our first selection will depend greatly on our next 3. I wholeheartedly agree that we need extractors.
How accurate would be a comparison of macrae and gaff be?
Thanks

 

[hectic]

This is such a great draft, there would be about half a dozen or so players I would be happy taking at pick 9. Those players being Vlastuin, Stringer, Macrae, Garner, Mayes and Menzel (obviously discounting Grundy, O'Rourke, Whitfield and Toumpas).

That being said, it's Vlastuin for mine just oozes determination and leadership. Fills an immediate need and would play senior footy next year. Those who doubt him because of a lack of x-factor or explosiveness, just think at the very least we will get a very good player who plays his role. And it's not like his type of players can't be stars either. I personally have no doubt he will be an extremely good long term player for us and will make us a better team.

But as I said there are a number of avenues we could go down, which I would not be disappointed with.

 

[Riskingheadandshin]

I'm still thinking Mayes if he is there. We still need good kicks!

Yep from everything seen and read. Mayes is the one. It looks like a bit Ryan Griffen in his play and looks a very good kick. Good size.
What chance is he being there at 9?

 

[Dragonss]

I'm still thinking Mayes if he is there. We still need good kicks!

Needs a left foot. Don't want people bagging him like Nahas saying he needs a left foot. Real demoralizing.

 

[Riskingheadandshin]

Needs a left foot. Don't want people bagging him like Nahas saying he needs a left foot. Real demoralizing.

Is he no good on his non preferred?

 

[MR]

You're saying this presuming Grundy and O'Rourke are off the table I'm guessing

I would prefer macrae.
The degree to which I am pleased with our first selection will depend greatly on our next 3. I wholeheartedly agree that we need extractors.
How accurate would be a comparison of macrae and gaff be?
Thanks

Gaff and Macrae aren't similar players. Gaff's game is completely based off his outside run and being an outside receiver more a better version of Grigg. Macrae whilst he does have incredible running attributes, has strong inside features such as composure in traffic and just seeing things that others normally wouldn't. He is very much like Pendlebury. He plays the game on his own terms and loves to take players on. He is very evasive and can play up forward. He is one player I would very much love to have at Richmond. Only negative with Macrae though is the question of will he ever be able to develop his inside game. If he does, he'll if not be the best of his draft be right up there.

 

[Tigerbob]

Highlight reels don't tell the whole story. I assure you, and I've followed Vlastuin very closely this year, that he is very very clean. He is the best kick for players around our pick (Other than Mayes.) He is very strong overhead and has handwork as good as his kicking.

Many people don't really like Vlastuin as a prospect because naturally in the AFL, the players who do the grunt work are often overlooked and discarded. Players like Cotchin, Ablett, Pendlebury always get the attention but we hardly hear about how good Ball, Tuck, Swallow and Sewell are. So as expected, everyone wants Garlett, Macrae, Stringer, simply because their potential could be as high as anything. Solid AFL citizens are just as important as those players, it's why Sydney won the premiership.

The reason some may want the "classier" guy over a Vlastuin is that at an early pick you try to pick up your stars. The elite's of the competition. The more elite's you have, the better the chance you have to be successful. We talk of Deledio, Cotchin, Martin and Jack as a passing thought, let's never forget how lucky we are to have these guys and the fact they were all early picks (Deledio, Cotchin, Martin 1, 2 ,3). We pick at Pick 9 in this draft, from what I can see is there will be guys if developed right, could be an A+ player in the AFL. We have got to take the best player possible here.

I like Vlastuin, no doubt will be a solid AFL player, playing 200 games, in the leadership group, a player we will love as he will bleed for us. If we take him, and ignore a guy who becomes elite, have we done a disservice to our playing list and fans? Made a mistake? Of course. The idea of the draft is getting in as many good players into your club that help you win a flag.

We have to be careful that our policy doesn't make us too meat and potatoes and not get enough elite support for our elite players. Conca and Ellis are great players, solid citizens, great characters, tick all the right boxes and I think the right decisions, but this draft is different. We may have a junior, who we could get to the level of Deledio, Martin and Cotchin.... maybe not Cotch, but you get my point. If the club feels Vlastuin is the best available, all good, I won't complain. But as a supporter, member and lover of the club, I will keep watch at the others that go after and make sure they aren't players with the obvious more talent that do become elite.

You refer Sydney saying they were all inside on ballers and that's why they won. I can assure you Sydney is a different case and I will tell you two things about the Grand Final:

1. Sydney LOST the clearances.
2. If Hawthorn kicked straight as they had more opportunities, would we still be talking about Sydney as a reference point to recruit Vlastuin?

We just need to focus on us. Not Sydney. Sydney is special, trust me, their culture is what gets them able to win Premierships. They turn junk from other clubs into continual final performers, not because they are inside players but because the whole football club is truly a special place with the best sporting culture in this country.

If we recruit Vlastuin, I really do trust the club and their system and process to understand why. They have a purpose. My belief though is different. You take the best available who will become a star. You can accommodate stars anywhere. The more you have the better.

Do you think Vlastuin will become elite? I am talking Deledio, Cotchin, Martin and Riewoldt elite? Who in this draft do you think can become that level? It's an interesting debate we threw around the table on Wednesday night. Take away all the fluff and stats, put down on paper who is the projected Elite players in this draft.

 

[UpTheGuts]

Cheers. Appreciated.

Remind me of your preferences at 9, MR?

 

[MR]

Cheers. Appreciated.

Remind me of your preferences at 9, MR?

Well excluding Whitfield and Toumpas...


Grundy>>>Vlastuin>Macrae>>Menzel>>Mayes>O'Rourke>Garner>Plowman>Wines>Garlett as my top 10.


Grundy doesn't fill immediate need, but this is a case of talent before anything else.

Tigerbob, to answer your question, I'll do a more extensive one in a moment, but I see Vlastuin becoming a Selwood/Judd (Not as good)/Swallow type player, so in short yes, I could see him becoming an elite footballer.

Vlastuin would be my first choice. He has the best skills out of anyone around our pick (excluding Mayes), goes as hard as anyone in the AFL, and has future captain written on his forehead. I don't get where the questions over his athleticism have come from either. He isn't slow, he is a decent pace and is a great endurance athlete. He'll become an immediate cult hero too, due to his roughness and attack on the man.

People seem to forget that not long ago, Vlastuin was tipped to go pick 2 in this year's draft. I know of a few clubs who still rate him top 5. Although I'm probably saying too much now, Vlastuin will be a great player for whichever club he plays for.

 

[Wacky Tiger]

Loving the debate in here. Everyone has some great valid points.

This truly will be a draft where we can't lose. No more JON selections in the top 10.

FWIW in the footage I've watched of all the kids Garner would be my pick of who should be avaliable. Slightly worried bout the shoulders but looks to have 'it'

 

[Tigerbob]

All good M_R, I wasn't having a go, just challenging the thoughts of people with knowledge of the draft.

I don't share your same thoughts on Vlastuin, but do think he will be a fine player, just never an A+. Mayes, Stringer, Menzel, Garlett, Clurey (different KPP) and Grundy all to me have that capability, if developed right. Vlastuin is a solid B+ type who you can count on.

I do understand though he is outstanding in certain areas we value, and if the club's purpose fits, then it's all good for me.

 

[MR]

The reason some may want the "classier" guy over a Vlastuin is that at an early pick you try to pick up your stars. The elite's of the competition. The more elite's you have, the better the chance you have to be successful. We talk of Deledio, Cotchin, Martin and Jack as a passing thought, let's never forget how lucky we are to have these guys and the fact they were all early picks (Deledio, Cotchin, Martin 1, 2 ,3). We pick at Pick 9 in this draft, from what I can see is there will be guys if developed right, could be an A+ player in the AFL. We have got to take the best player possible here.

I like Vlastuin, no doubt will be a solid AFL player, playing 200 games, in the leadership group, a player we will love as he will bleed for us. If we take him, and ignore a guy who becomes elite, have we done a disservice to our playing list and fans? Made a mistake? Of course. The idea of the draft is getting in as many good players into your club that help you win a flag.

We have to be careful that our policy doesn't make us too meat and potatoes and not get enough elite support for our elite players. Conca and Ellis are great players, solid citizens, great characters, tick all the right boxes and I think the right decisions, but this draft is different. We may have a junior, who we could get to the level of Deledio, Martin and Cotchin.... maybe not Cotch, but you get my point. If the club feels Vlastuin is the best available, all good, I won't complain. But as a supporter, member and lover of the club, I will keep watch at the others that go after and make sure they aren't players with the obvious more talent that do become elite.

You refer Sydney saying they were all inside on ballers and that's why they won. I can assure you Sydney is a different case and I will tell you two things about the Grand Final:

1. Sydney LOST the clearances.
2. If Hawthorn kicked straight as they had more opportunities, would we still be talking about Sydney as a reference point to recruit Vlastuin?

We just need to focus on us. Not Sydney. Sydney is special, trust me, their culture is what gets them able to win Premierships. They turn junk from other clubs into continual final performers, not because they are inside players but because the whole football club is truly a special place with the best sporting culture in this country.

If we recruit Vlastuin, I really do trust the club and their system and process to understand why. They have a purpose. My belief though is different. You take the best available who will become a star. You can accommodate stars anywhere. The more you have the better.

Do you think Vlastuin will become elite? I am talking Deledio, Cotchin, Martin and Riewoldt elite? Who in this draft do you think can become that level? It's an interesting debate we threw around the table on Wednesday night. Take away all the fluff and stats, put down on paper who is the projected Elite players in this draft.

I wholeheartedly believe that with the right development, Vlastuin will be an elite player in AFL. I also believe that Richmond is capable of providing the correct development too. I have watched him very closely for the entire year and I assure you, he has very good skills, (Not Deledio standard, more Martin standard), the courage of a player like Morris, the work rate of Cotchin, clearance skill of Andrew Swallow, tackles like Tuck, and probably the athleticism of Newman. Even so, I don't believe he needs to be super athletic for his specific position. There is a reason that early this year he was tipped to go pick 2, and that some clubs have him top 5 in their rankings.

You also have to look at Richmond's three pillars of recruiting. They are: Do they compete? Can they kick? Are they leaders? Vlastuin is in the elite category of this year's pool in every single one of those aspects. Also, I'm sure you know about next year's draft pool too, but it is mainly outside midfielder dominated. With some good fortune, we'll have pick 12-14. However, out current predicament requires that we take an inside midfielder, and one who can come in and provide good football immediately. Well look no further than Vlastuin. We can't afford to stuff up this pick. We can't just bank our hopes on that we'll pick up an inside midfielder in the 30's who will be good enough to replace Tuck. I'll tell you right now, if Tuck went tomorrow, Jackson Helbig and Arnot would be the worst inside midfield depth out of all clubs in the competition.

The thing is, I completely agree with you that we need to take the best player available, we just seem to have different opinions on who is the better player available.

Bit off topic here, I know, but Sydney won their premiership because of their vanilla types. They may have lost to Hawthorn in the clearances, but Hawthorn's vanilla types are in the top 3 of the competition too. What I was trying to say in terms of Sydney was that it wasn't players like Jetta that won them their premiership, it was ROK, Jack, Bolton etc.

Just dropping some mail off too, because I know you'd all be interested, we are very keen on Christian Salem from Sandringham Dragons next year.

 

[Tomnat Tigers]

Next year hey?? Is he considered a potential first rounder at this stage?

Also what do people think of Jacob Ballard?

 

[MR]

Next year hey?? Is he considered a potential first rounder at this stage?

Also what do people think of Jacob Ballard?

Yeah first rounder. I have him currently at 9 in my rankings, although I haven't seen much of the kids from the other states.

I think we could get better players with 43 than Ballard. Although I would be open to taking him with a rookie pick if available.

 

[_RT_]

The more I read about Vlastuin the more I want to see him in a Tigers jumper. Just screams out class and commitment. Definitely won't be a player that we will regret taking in the future.

 

[Tomnat Tigers]

Yeah first rounder. I have him currently at 9 in my rankings, although I haven't seen much of the kids from the other states.

I think we could get better players with 43 than Ballard. Although I would be open to taking him with a rookie pick if available.

Thanks for the info. On Ballard i to think that 43 is too early for him but as a rookie would be worth the gamble. He reminds me of darrou though Chris25 says that Ballard can play midfield.

 

[Tigerbob]

I wholeheartedly believe that with the right development, Vlastuin will be an elite player in AFL. I also believe that Richmond is capable of providing the correct development too. I have watched him very closely for the entire year and I assure you, he has very good skills, (Not Deledio standard, more Martin standard), the courage of a player like Morris, the work rate of Cotchin, clearance skill of Andrew Swallow, tackles like Tuck, and probably the athleticism of Newman. Even so, I don't believe he needs to be super athletic for his specific position. There is a reason that early this year he was tipped to go pick 2, and that some clubs have him top 5 in their rankings.

You also have to look at Richmond's three pillars of recruiting. They are: Do they compete? Can they kick? Are they leaders? Vlastuin is in the elite category of this year's pool in every single one of those aspects. Also, I'm sure you know about next year's draft pool too, but it is mainly outside midfielder dominated. With some good fortune, we'll have pick 12-14. However, out current predicament requires that we take an inside midfielder, and one who can come in and provide good football immediately. Well look no further than Vlastuin. We can't afford to stuff up this pick. We can't just bank our hopes on that we'll pick up an inside midfielder in the 30's who will be good enough to replace Tuck. I'll tell you right now, if Tuck went tomorrow, Jackson Helbig and Arnot would be the worst inside midfield depth out of all clubs in the competition.

The thing is, I completely agree with you that we need to take the best player available, we just seem to have different opinions on who is the better player available.

Bit off topic here, I know, but Sydney won their premiership because of their vanilla types. They may have lost to Hawthorn in the clearances, but Hawthorn's vanilla types are in the top 3 of the competition too. What I was trying to say in terms of Sydney was that it wasn't players like Jetta that won them their premiership, it was ROK, Jack, Bolton etc.

Just dropping some mail off too, because I know you'd all be interested, we are very keen on Christian Salem from Sandringham Dragons next year.

Brilliantly said, love the debate.

I will disagree with you on Sydney right of the bat. I won't go into detail why, but my belief is Sydney got into a position to win the Grand Final due to culture more than anything. Truly a special club.

Vlastuin we don't disagree as heavily as you think, as I said, I rate him as a player, it's just an interesting debate on early draft picks and elite players. We sat around the table and 5 of us wrote a list of the elite players in this years pool. One guy had three players in Whitfield, Toumpas and Grundy. One had Vlastuin, but later after we debated removed him. We put in place criteria and listed the elite players from previous drafts. Elite is a special category that sometimes we may underestimate.

The only thing we disagree on now is Vlastuin being an A+ or a B+. Not a lot on it to be honest as I state it is a even draft and it all comes down to development. Cyril Rioli the prime example that we discussed. Would he have been the player he is at a club like Port Adelaide? Or would Dangerfield have developed into the player he was this year at the Bulldogs or stayed as he was as an impact player? We won't know the answers to this, we just wanted to see, if all developed in the perfect environment, who can be elite. I had Macrae and was argued to remove him from the whiteboard. It will be tough to be Elite.

If we take Vlastuin, I hope he can prove me wrong. I know he will be a fine player, just hope he is elite. My shout if he is!

 

[Harmichael]

Still reckon Gartlett's worth the punt. Need pace, need x-factor. Extractors & inside workhorse types don't need to be stars and you can still get good ones with later picks. (see Tuck)

 

[MR]

Brilliantly said, love the debate.

I will disagree with you on Sydney right of the bat. I won't go into detail why, but my belief is Sydney got into a position to win the Grand Final due to culture more than anything. Truly a special club.

Vlastuin we don't disagree as heavily as you think, as I said, I rate him as a player, it's just an interesting debate on early draft picks and elite players. We sat around the table and 5 of us wrote a list of the elite players in this years pool. One guy had three players in Whitfield, Toumpas and Grundy. One had Vlastuin, but later after we debated removed him. We put in place criteria and listed the elite players from previous drafts. Elite is a special category that sometimes we may underestimate.

The only thing we disagree on now is Vlastuin being an A+ or a B+. Not a lot on it to be honest as I state it is a even draft and it all comes down to development. Cyril Rioli the prime example that we discussed. Would he have been the player he is at a club like Port Adelaide? Or would Dangerfield have developed into the player he was this year at the Bulldogs or stayed as he was as an impact player? We won't know the answers to this, we just wanted to see, if all developed in the perfect environment, who can be elite. I had Macrae and was argued to remove him from the whiteboard. It will be tough to be Elite.

If we take Vlastuin, I hope he can prove me wrong. I know he will be a fine player, just hope he is elite. My shout if he is!

For what it's worth, I really rate this year's draft.

Whitfield
Toumpas
Grundy
Macrae
Vlastuin
Menzel

Mayes comes so close but there are some real outstanding flaws to his game, so I can't see him becoming elite, barring a huge change.

Menzel and Macrae are two that I think could become better than Vlastuin. There's a real special feel about both of them and I would be laughing if we got any of those 6.


TB, I'd love to get your thoughts on Salem.

 

[Tigerbob]

For what it's worth, I really rate this year's draft.

Whitfield
Toumpas
Grundy
Macrae
Vlastuin
Menzel

Mayes comes so close but there are some real outstanding flaws to his game, so I can't see him becoming elite, barring a huge change.

Menzel and Macrae are two that I think could become better than Vlastuin. There's a real special feel about both of them and I would be laughing if we got any of those 6.


TB, I'd love to get your thoughts on Salem.

All I will say on Salem is that we won't be the only one's interested and would probably need to have a similar year to this year to have any chance to be able to obtain him.

If he develops as he has been going. We have seen plenty top Under 16's fall a tad, hence why I am reluctant to talk about them at this early stage. Definite possibility at this minute to be top 5 next year, at this stage would be on most clubs board as kids to follow next season. Special movement and feel for the game. As I said mate, you could have put a lot of clubs as interested in him and it would be true.

 

[Stylo]

Salem played for VM in the champs this year hey? Looked pretty good I thought.

 

[MR]

Salem played for VM in the champs this year hey? Looked pretty good I thought.

Yeah, I think he's a beauty. I was just passing on some mail that I heard recently.

 

[dorianyates]

Would like to take Vlaustin with first pick and then pick up Sumner with a second rounder. Reading the reports he could provide that pace the Tigers need. On the debate of drafting someone elite, you would struggle to get 1 or 2 elite players in each draft. The players who I would say are elite in the AFL are players that can't really be stopped - Buddy and Ablett. Judd was but not anymore. Apart from those there is a list of excellent players I would say Cotchin is a part of this group, Murphy from Blues and others.

I doubt with pick 9 that there will be any elite talent left. I place more value on a team's chemistry and mix than on an individual talent. I look at a team like West Coast currently, a strong finals side and they don't have anyone truly elite. They have good players on every line and have got a pretty good balance to their team.

 

[Tigerbob]

Would like to take Vlaustin with first pick and then pick up Sumner with a second rounder. Reading the reports he could provide that pace the Tigers need. On the debate of drafting someone elite, you would struggle to get 1 or 2 elite players in each draft. The players who I would say are elite in the AFL are players that can't really be stopped - Buddy and Ablett. Judd was but not anymore. Apart from those there is a list of excellent players I would say Cotchin is a part of this group, Murphy from Blues and others.

I doubt with pick 9 that there will be any elite talent left. I place more value on a team's chemistry and mix than on an individual talent. I look at a team like West Coast currently, a strong finals side and they don't have anyone truly elite. They have good players on every line and have got a pretty good balance to their team.

Balance is important.

I would say Champions are scarce, elite there are a few. We have Deledio, Cotchin, Martin and Jack who I would put in the elite category. Champion? Well none yet, but Cotchin definitely close if not there.

Elite could be top 100 players, or best 10 in each position etc. Different rating systems.

Pick 9 there will be some elite talent left. Champions? Doubtful, but definitely elite.

 

[DoItForCaptBlood]

I look at a team like West Coast currently, a strong finals side and they don't have anyone truly elite. They have good players on every line and have got a pretty good balance to their team.

So you are saying Cox is not elite....wow!

Pavlich. Swan, Pendlebury, Thompson, Selwood, Bartel, Brown, Black....NOT elite.....just excellent players, but can be stopped, so not elite right?