2012 draft

[THE_GUN]

I'm just perplexed at all this talk of him as a replacement for Tuck and Jackson -as much as I love Tucky (Jackson-not so much)- I'd want our first round pick to be a lot more that just that, have way more strings to their bow and be considerably more talented.(Not saying Vlastuin doesn't/isn't) As I keep saying - replacing Tuck & upgrading on Jackson shouldn't cost a first round pick. Pick 34 at the earliest or better yet, getting Lonergan as a DFA would pretty much do the same trick for a lot cheaper.

I know Grundy won't fix it - but I'm also worried that we seem building a team that's a bit on the slow side. We badly need pace and I would hope just relying on former GF sprint winner King and retaining a dud like White -who's not as fast as he was anyway (see last round of 2011)- isn't the whole extent of Hardwick's plan in that regard. Hope at least one of our later picks has some speed about them.


Think it tells us something about our stocks of quick players when we had to resort to entering Rance in the GF sprint in 2011.

Very Very good post Harmicheal - Like wouldnt of done it justice

Exactly my thoughts

 

[theflea]

I am not sure I would want Vlastuin at 9. Why? Well look many of the best inside midfielders - Mitchell, Kennedy, (Foley & Tuck for us) etc. Hardly any come form a high draft pick. These hard workers come from later picks as they are the blue collar guys. The more dynamic types are picked up early as it is harder to find the talent that will make them dynamic at AFL level. In some ways they are a little more hit and miss. To me a Ben Kennedy or a Dayle Garlett or a Josh Simpson would potentially be a greater weapon for us than a dedicated foot soldier who would be a safer bet but without the upside.

There in is the dilemma. X factor in spades but potentially flawed by being inconsistent or a little dull and boring but with more consistency.

This is where you must back your development people. If you have confidence in them then you must select the X factor guy and hope they can develop the consistency that will make them a star. If you don't have the confidence then you probably take the safer but ultimately more boring bet.

I know what I as a spectator and member would want. Someone that down the track I can say "I was around when this guy played for the tigers and you should have seen him, he was unbelievable..."
Thankfully I can remember Maurice Rioli well. Young Cotchin is now forcing his way down that path. Hopefully Martin too. Guys like Ellis are great but we already have enough of them....

well you could argue judd,ball,hodge are all insiders as well.

 

[theflea]

Hey mate, wasn't having a go, just wanted to test reasoning of people's thoughts.

I will disagree with your assessment of ruckman and Grundy and would just say you make a call as you see it not have general rules.

Imagine if WCE had that general rule and didn't select Natanui? I mean sometimes you get players and you just know. Sometimes there are cases you need to look at despite having your beliefs.

Grundy for me is that type of player. Of he were to drop you can't possibly select some names mentioned in front of him. You back your development too. A player has that many tools of elite potential, you recruit for the future.

My evaluation of Grundy is he is the most talented ruck choice in sometime. Hos attitude, character, willingness to learn and work hard makes him the complete package.

This is just my opinion. I don't mean to downgrade anyone's opinion on here as I don't see myself as always right so I apologise if I came across that way.

wayne hughes stated he would have picked nicnat at 1 instead of kreuzer if he were available he was seen as that good.

 

[MR]

With Respect MR, Its the first time i actually seen Quigleys mock just then and was suprised that he actually mentions the the concerns about Vlastuin that we had/have and were talking about a few pages ago.
Pace,Kicking,stamina.

Whilst these things can be forgiven at junior level they are very easily found out and exploited at AFL level,Vlastuin uses his strength alot and can usually be very effective at that level but will get found out at AFL level

Im not 100% Sold on Floss-Tune

He has elite contested ball winning ability so even if you believe his kicking is only average, its not that large a concern. Think about Tuck, he's not a good kick, he's a reliable kick but its not that important because more often than not, he is on the ground getting the ball to our better users in Cotch and Deledio. You question his pace, but look at Tuck, Hayes, Swallow, Thompson, when has a lack of pave ever affected their elite play. They are clearance and contested specialists, as is Vlastuin. I don't know how many times that I'm going to have to repeat myself but with his elite work rate, endurance won't be a problem in the future.

Its all irrelevant though because he is a very good user of the ball and is not slow by AFL standards.

 

[Ancient Tiger]

well you could argue judd,ball,hodge are all insiders as well.

They probably have much better outside games though than Vlastuin. They are not pure insiders (Ball less so).

 

[theflea]

I can't say as a percent, but Mayes, Whitfield and O'Rourke all have elite kicking from a watcher's point of view.

the reason why i asked this as it was questioned why if we do chose vlas as he didnt have elite kicking skills yet most in the draft dont anyhow.

 

[theflea]

They probably have much better outside games though than Vlastuin. They are not pure insiders (Ball less so).

true but ball is a no but still a very good player in his own right.

 

[Tigerbob]

the reason why i asked this as it was questioned why if we do chose vlas as he didnt have elite kicking skills yet most in the draft dont anyhow.

There are a few other than just the top liners that I would class as elite kicks. Won't name them all, but Vlastuin is not amongst them. It's not a bad thing, I never intended it to sound like that, I just kept hearing on this forum he was elite in his kicking, in this regard I wanted to question it. His kicking is no issue at all.

For instance, I want Grundy, but he is not an elite kick. It is no issue, there are other qualities that are elite that we would value.

Vlastuin would be an upgrade on Tuck and Jackson as inside on ballers as a guide, no doubt, the questions are now a) Is he the best available on the board when we select, and b) Will he get to our pick anyway?

I haven't had the information like MR that a few clubs rate him top 5. In my talks and discussions most recruiters I talked to mentioned he was either going at about his range at 9 or it was a very slight reach. It was understandable that he may fit the criteria of what we are after though.

Brisbane are hoping for a drop and I seriously doubt if Menzel is there, they take Vlastuin in front of him from my information. This could be wrong. I know a poster who does good Phantom Drafts rated him at Pick 2 earlier in the year, but with all due respect to that poster, I would not read too much into that. It is why I don't talk about next years crop here in terms of rankings and draft positions and even potential. Things change, Jack Darling as a 17 year old was Pick 1 by a mile, he went the next year in the 20's. Circumstances contributed but you get my point, it happens every year.

Vlastuin would be a sound selection, low risk but we know what we are getting. Matchwinner? Some say yes on here, I respect their opinion but will disagree again. He is that tier two player who helps the team be better, but a match winner is reserved for the absolute elite like Cotchin, Deledio, Martin and Riewoldt.

It is also important to remember this week is when we will hear all sorts of rumours, most are teams throwing others off course.

 

[Harmichael]

Speaking of which someone just posted on PRE than Brissy will take Vlastuin.

They also reckon we'll take Garner and Menzell won't even go Top 10!

 

[Harmichael]

imo we are no slow at all.

Slow was probably the wrong word - more like we lack classy players with genuine pace. Deledio is probably our fastest quality player and he ain't exactly Jetta and at 25 and that size he won't get faster, White has lost place and can't play anyway, not sure King is that quick anymore & Foley definitely isn't. Some players like Edwards & Nahas look fast because they're skinny, twitchy & evasive, but they really aren't. Morris occasionally creates an illusion of speed because he charges at everything, the same way King can look quick with his arms cocked, head bobbing and little legs pumping furiously. Cotchin is very quick off the mark and has that hypnotic ability that only the freakish few possess to slow down time and draw away from players without really leaving the lower gears but isn't fast in real terms.

 

[THE_GUN]

They also reckon we'll take Garner and Menzell won't even go Top 10!

If we take another player whilst Menzel is still available - I WILL SPEW

 

[Harmichael]

If we take another player whilst Menzel is still available - I WILL SPEW

Still be far more annoyed if we overlooked Grundy. Concerns over Menzel's knee would at least be a plausible excuse for passing on him and something we could at least console ourselves with, whilst there'd be no real excuse at all for overlooking Grundy IMO.

Menzel's a bit of the devil's contract to me - "Here's the next Joel Selwood .......with David Rodan's knees"

 

["The Roar Is Back"]

Vlastuin I would suggest is being looked at as an inside mid and as such I would think decision making under pressure and use by hand are likely to be of more interest than outside kicking ability , not that there is anything at all wrong with that aspect of his game .

 

[JAKLAUGHING]

Slow was probably the wrong word - more like we lack classy players with genuine pace. Deledio is probably our fastest quality player and he ain't exactly Jetta and at 25 and that size he won't get faster, White has lost place and can't play anyway, not sure King is that quick anymore & Foley definitely isn't. Some players like Edwards & Nahas look fast because they're skinny, twitchy & evasive, but they really aren't. Morris occasionally creates an illusion of speed because he charges at everything, the same way King can look quick with his arms cocked, head bobbing and little legs pumping furiously. Cotchin is very quick off the mark and has that hypnotic ability that only the freakish few possess to slow down time and draw away from players without really leaving the lower gears but isn't fast in real terms.

Just going off topic at the moment...and i dont want to derail the thread at all...but that highlighted line is probably imo worth exploring/discussing...

That hynotic quality of slowing down time...i would dare to suggest was never evident with Juddy at his best...

Juddy at his best like Cousins just literally burnt the opposition away with blistering evasive acceleration and speed...Astroboys on steroids...

Again that hynotic quality that only the freakish few possess to slow down time...

Where it seems the Umpires...Players...Commentators...collectively hold their breath and watch in awe and tantalizing anticipation...as only the best...the elite...go about their business...Calmness and certainty in the eye of the storm...That maelstrom of surging crashing arms...legs...bodies that make up our football world...

And calmy walk through it unpreturbed with ball in hand...

You are right...that ability to slow down time...it is a gift from the football gods gifted to only the 'best'...its a thing of beauty...

I love it...and i guess others do to in seeing its simple play...the world i dare say it is a better place for its showing...

Cotchins 'handball' in the Saints game surrounded but still delivered...Hirdy's ball gathering in a pack...Knights evasiveness and kicking are just three that come to mind...and their skills will be remembered and will live forever as long as supporters are still around...'the stuff of Legends'...

The basis of that hypnotic quality to completely mesmerize the oppostion into spectators?!?!..who knows...if you could bottle it and sell it you would make a fortune..

But in my humble opinion i reckon its the product of an elite footballing mind...

The ability to know where to be on a large football ground at any given time and play and then instinctively know what to do with the least minimum fuss...each and everytime with consumate skill!

You cannot coach that hypnotic quality into a player they either have it or they dont...they are natural born atheletes excelling in any sport they choose...rare...

They are leaders...

I hope this coming draft we pick a player that has a little more of this...natural football ability/mind...able to slow down time...

Cos i am hanging out...long time...to watch Richmond kick some collective arse on their way to another Premiership...

 

[Big Vee]

Another tigers supporter in the draft is Tom Tyquin from Sandringham, excellent user of the footy and one of the best kids you will ever meet. Really hope we get him with a late pick if he's still there. Has all the attributes Dimma seems to want these days.

 

[In the Jungle]

Another tigers supporter in the draft is Tom Tyquin from Sandringham, excellent user of the footy and one of the best kids you will ever meet. Really hope we get him with a late pick if he's still there. Has all the attributes Dimma seems to want these days.

All l know is l am getting nervous;
Nervous because if we pick Vlaustin @ 9, just hope he's good enough;
I personally have mixed feeling. He comes across like he's talented (like most in draft), probably mpore of a 12 - 18 range player?
Rumors that we not spoken to some top 10 candidates, l find confusing
Surely to still talk to all even , the expected top3, as part of your due dilergance?

 

[_RT_]

I am not sure I would want Vlastuin at 9. Why? Well look many of the best inside midfielders - Mitchell, Kennedy, (Foley & Tuck for us) etc. Hardly any come form a high draft pick. These hard workers come from later picks as they are the blue collar guys. The more dynamic types are picked up early as it is harder to find the talent that will make them dynamic at AFL level. In some ways they are a little more hit and miss. To me a Ben Kennedy or a Dayle Garlett or a Josh Simpson would potentially be a greater weapon for us than a dedicated foot soldier who would be a safer bet but without the upside.

There in is the dilemma. X factor in spades but potentially flawed by being inconsistent or a little dull and boring but with more consistency.

This is where you must back your development people. If you have confidence in them then you must select the X factor guy and hope they can develop the consistency that will make them a star. If you don't have the confidence then you probably take the safer but ultimately more boring bet.

I know what I as a spectator and member would want. Someone that down the track I can say "I was around when this guy played for the tigers and you should have seen him, he was unbelievable..."
Thankfully I can remember Maurice Rioli well. Young Cotchin is now forcing his way down that path. Hopefully Martin too. Guys like Ellis are great but we already have enough of them....

Again I don't get this type of thinking where posters say we need more dynamic types and should use our first pick to get more. For mine I want our first pick to be as close to a certainty as we can get. If that means we go after a solid foot soldier type then so be it. If we're going to gamble on the X-Factor types I would rather use our later picks on these types where you don't lose as much if they don't come off, especially this year where we have 3 picks in the second round.

 

[Ancient Tiger]

Again I don't get this type of thinking where posters say we need more dynamic types and should use our first pick to get more. For mine I want our first pick to be as close to a certainty as we can get. If that means we go after a solid foot soldier type then so be it. If we're going to gamble on the X-Factor types I would rather use our later picks on these types where you don't lose as much if they don't come off, especially this year where we have 3 picks in the second round.

We'll have to agree to disagree here RT.
I'll just give you one example of what I mean. Hawthorn in 2007 selected Rioli at around number 12. At that point there were a number of "safer" but more boring options. Their risk taking paid dividends. They won the premiership the next year and although he did not do it single handedly, he certainly contributed greatly to the cause. I doubt they would have won it without him although we can argue here.
My point is exactly that. In a game of football you rarely win the big games unless your team takes risks. Playing safe doesn't bring the ultimate success. I feel drafting is the same. I'm talking of calculated risks though, not speculative. Guys like Kennedy, Simpson and Garlett are all top rated players and are unlikely to bomb out. But their upside, like Rioli or Jetta is huge. Their presence and ability to do things others cannot often are game changing on the biggest stage of all. After all I want to win the premiership not just sneak into the eight. These safer X factor types are more likely to do that. Guys like Vlastuin may not. It's a matter of opinion of course.

 

[MR]

We'll have to agree to disagree here RT.
I'll just give you one example of what I mean. Hawthorn in 2007 selected Rioli at around number 12. At that point there were a number of "safer" but more boring options. Their risk taking paid dividends. They won the premiership the next year and although he did not do it single handedly, he certainly contributed greatly to the cause. I doubt they would have won it without him although we can argue here.
My point is exactly that. In a game of football you rarely win the big games unless your team takes risks. Playing safe doesn't bring the ultimate success. I feel drafting is the same. I'm talking of calculated risks though, not speculative. Guys like Kennedy, Simpson and Garlett are all top rated players and are unlikely to bomb out. But their upside, like Rioli or Jetta is huge. Their presence and ability to do things others cannot often are game changing on the biggest stage of all. After all I want to win the premiership not just sneak into the eight. These safer X factor types are more likely to do that. Guys like Vlastuin may not. It's a matter of opinion of course.

Rioli was a safe option. He played for VIC, went to a school in Melbourne and was extremely talented. Richmond loved him, and if we had a later pick, we would have snatched him up, no doubt. Vlastuin at the moment is a far better player than the three you mentioned, so why would you pick them for a chance that they might go past him. There's the same chance that Vlastuin could become the next Joel Selwood.

 

[NZ_Tiger]

Rioli was a safe option. He played for VIC, went to a school in Melbourne and was extremely talented. Richmond loved him, and if we had a later pick, we would have snatched him up, no doubt. Vlastuin at the moment is a far better player than the three you mentioned, so why would you pick them for a chance that they might go past him. There's the same chance that Vlastuin could become the next Joel Selwood.

Kennedy and Garlett were a lot better at the champs. Vlastuin's were quite poor by comparison so if your taking the better current player then it would go Kenneds>>>Garlett>Vlastuin>>Simpson.

 

[fred swift]

Vlastuins kicking is good. Not elite. Won't be an issue but won't be a weapon.

He is a good kid. We will be proud to have him if we select him. Which isn't as sure as it seems.

well said bob i think its a smoke screen F J will let the player he wants the day be for draft day not 6 weeks before , every year he puts a players name out there say vlastuins and goes some won else. as you no i am on the garlett band wagon pick 9, as for RT and MR saying vlastuins will replace tucky i think helbig and Arnot will be the ones that play in and under your thoughts .

 

[007Tigers]

Another phantom to have a read of, be wary it's extremely long.

http://www.footytragic.com/blog/2012-post-season/kristians-2012-phantom-draft/

if thats who we get in the draft i would probably have a heart attack! would love it

 

[cairo tiger]

some of emmas thoughts

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/the-pick-of-the-crop-20121117-29jct.html

 

[Ancient Tiger]

some of emmas thoughts

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/the-pick-of-the-crop-20121117-29jct.html

As I've said. I rate Vlastuin at around 15 too. Kind of like Ellis who was a good pick at 15.

 

[Riskingheadandshin]

We'll have to agree to disagree here RT.
I'll just give you one example of what I mean. Hawthorn in 2007 selected Rioli at around number 12. At that point there were a number of "safer" but more boring options. Their risk taking paid dividends. They won the premiership the next year and although he did not do it single handedly, he certainly contributed greatly to the cause. I doubt they would have won it without him although we can argue here.
My point is exactly that. In a game of football you rarely win the big games unless your team takes risks. Playing safe doesn't bring the ultimate success. I feel drafting is the same. I'm talking of calculated risks though, not speculative. Guys like Kennedy, Simpson and Garlett are all top rated players and are unlikely to bomb out. But their upside, like Rioli or Jetta is huge. Their presence and ability to do things others cannot often are game changing on the biggest stage of all. After all I want to win the premiership not just sneak into the eight. These safer X factor types are more likely to do that. Guys like Vlastuin may not. It's a matter of opinion of course.

I agree, but Hawthorn already had the solid midfield "base", the building blocks in place, were primed to have a crack at a flag and were in the right position to draft Rioli. Remember, they already had Hodge, Mitchell, Sewell, Lewis, Bateman who were established, mature, and good to elite midfielders.
We are not there yet. We need to build the base first, get the engine built as best we can before we add on the nitro.