2012 List Management - Drafts, Trading and Delistings

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dogwatch

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I'm not yet convinced, but if Casboult is worth going for, would a straight swap of Grant for Casboult be about the right trade? Grant has not met the high expectations of a #5 draft pick yet, but still has some upside (I'm not keen to lose him TBH) and has played 50 games, while Casboult is bigger, younger but still not proven. Risk for both sides but could be a win-win.

If we really after Casboult (still to be confirmed as something other than a rumour) then it says a lot about the two McCartneys' views on Cordy, Grant, Hill, Panos, Redpath, Campbell, Roughead, Williams and Jones as KPF prospects. And if that's the case at least three on that list would have their career in danger.
 

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woofles

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I'm not yet convinced, but if Casboult is worth going for, would a straight swap of Grant for Casboult be about the right trade? Grant still has not met the high expectations of a #5 draft pick yet, but still has some upside (I'm not keen to lose him TBH) and has played 50 games, while Casboult is bigger, younger but still not proven. Rick for both sides but could be a win-win.

If we really after Casboult (still to be confirmed as something other than a rumour) then it says a lot about the two McCartneys' views on Cordy, Grant, Hill, Panos, Redpath, Campbell, Roughead, Williams and Jones as KPF prospects. And if that's the case at least three on that list would have their career in danger.
It really depends on where Carlton value Grant. Some might still rate his potentail, others might think he's a spud. I have no idea what he'd attract on an open market, could legitimately be offered anything from pick 25-60. If I was in Carltons shoes and was offered Grant for Casboult Id be telling us to get stuffed though.
 

Nath09

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I'm not too worried to be honest. A lot of the recruiting mistakes have been made in light of us topping up for another flag tilt. It seems like the club now realises we're in re-build mode and have stated we want to build from within. I'm sure I've heard on multiple occasions that we want to be using 5 picks under 50 in the DRAFT. Perhaps we're considering trading players like Sherman, Vez, Grant for extra picks we can on-trade. All those guys should get us upgrades or third rounders and you would think these would be enough to snare us guys like Toy or Casboult. If McCartney is the great teacher of young men he is touted to be, then I'm all for bringing in a few 20-year olds and seeing what he can do with them.

On a side note I have to say I love the idea of Lake + 27 for pick 11 but I just can't see it happening :(
 
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Trading Lake is a tough one. Lake, if he stays with us will never win a premiership, and he is such a good player he deserves one. Still we want to install loyalty into our players so we need to give it back to them. If Lake was approached and wanted to go, it would make it easier - we could give him our blessing and let him go, and play hard ball to get a decent pick.
 

woofles

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or when we traded Montgomery, or Cameron or one of the many other trades like this that have happened over the years that didn't make you say the same thing about loyalty?
Brian Lake is the best full back to have ever pulled on the jumper, we dont celebrate him the way Essendon do with Fletch...we use him as trade bait because hes past 30.
 

Zgope1

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Brian Lake is the best full back to have ever pulled on the jumper, we dont celebrate him the way Essendon do with Fletch...we use him as trade bait because hes past 30.
I'm not saying it's not disloyal. I'm asking you, is this your first touch with disloyal? Nicky Winmar left the saints and came to the dogs, Dermott Brereton, a hawthorn man for life, was all over the place at the end of his career. Hawthorn traded a young Josh Kennedy that they could have kept and a young Josh Kennedy said no to loyalty and sought out better opportunities. Loyalty in football exists but in a very small quantity. Thank you Chris Grant.
 

Nath09

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I guess loyalty in football is dead and gone.
Personally, I don't think it's the club's job to be loyal to it's players but to do what it takes to be successful. Surely you're not suggesting that loyalty is more important than on-field success? It's also odd that the notion of loyalty only comes up when we're discussing players with Talent. What about loyalty to the not-so-gifted that get delisted every year. Hooper was reportedly in tears and loves the club but no one is bemoaning our lack of loyalty to him.

It's a complex issue that's for sure. Similarly you can't go trading every player under the sun because it can ruin the fabric of the club. That being said players like Montgomery, Croad and Tarrant have all returned to clubs that have traded them out with no hard feelings. I get the sense that a lot of supporters seem to over-emotionalise the act of trading.
 

woofles

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I'm not saying it's not disloyal. I'm asking you, is this your first touch with disloyal? Nicky Winmar left the saints and came to the dogs, Dermott Brereton, a hawthorn man for life, was all over the place at the end of his career. Hawthorn traded a young Josh Kennedy that they could have kept and a young Josh Kennedy said no to loyalty and sought out better opportunities. Loyalty in football exists but in a very small quantity. Thank you Chris Grant.
No of course not but Im working under the notion that Lake wants to stay, we absolutely ravage Callan Ward but love the notion of a one club player, yet we wont allow one to be that? If Lake wants to be there he has done enough to not be treated like a piece of bait. Windy Hill would be burnt to the ground if they threw around Fletch
 

woofles

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Personally, I don't think it's the club's job to be loyal to it's players but to do what it takes to be successful. Surely you're not suggesting that loyalty is more important than on-field success? It's also odd that the notion of loyalty only comes up when we're discussing players with Talent. What about loyalty to the not-so-gifted that get delisted every year. Hooper was reportedly in tears and loves the club but no one is bemoaning our lack of loyalty to him.

It's a complex issue that's for sure. Similarly you can't go trading every player under the sun because it can ruin the fabric of the club. That being said players like Montgomery, Croad and Tarrant have all returned to clubs that have traded them out with no hard feelings. I get the sense that a lot of supporters seem to over-emotionalise the act of trading.
Correct, there is one rule for players with talent and another for those who arent up to it. Tough titties... thats life. Why the hell should a player give a toss about his club if we treat them like cattle? Lake has given the club 15 years of service, he lives locally, his young family is settled here, most of his best mates would be at the club. IF he wants to stay, he has done enough to earn the privilege of being a one club player. Yeah if he's chasing a premiership then feel free to shop him around and get the best deal possible but I havent read anything that leads me to that conclusion.
 

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murphy2bedabest

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No of course not but Im working under the notion that Lake wants to stay, we absolutely ravage Callan Ward but love the notion of a one club player, yet we wont allow one to be that? If Lake wants to be there he has done enough to not be treated like a piece of bait. Windy Hill would be burnt to the ground if they threw around Fletch
He is my view as I have always been happy for cal ward to leave, I'm sorry but take what you can, when you can because you never know what's around the corner. But that's foe another day.

As for lake I don't think the club will look to trade him, but will look at all offers and if one is to good to past up then we should take it, I know for a fact the club is looking towards 2015.

So many people here want another round 1 pick, well the only way to get that is to give something good up. If that men's trading lake, then why not if it means we can get a 200 gamer that will help us win a flag
 

Nath09

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Correct, there is one rule for players with talent and another for those who arent up to it. Tough titties... thats life. Why the hell should a player give a toss about his club if we treat them like cattle? Lake has give the club 15 years of service, he lives locally, his young family is settled here, most of his best mates would be at the club. IF he wants to stay, he has done enough to earn the privilege of being a one club player. Yeah if he's chasing a premiership then feel free to shop him around and get the best deal possible but I havent read anything that leads me to that conclusion.
Firstly, I think your "one rule for some players and another for others" line undermines your argument. That aside, a player should give a toss about the club because it has put its faith in him, selected him above other potential prospects and then put its time and its resources into Lake. Let's not forget he's also been handsomely reimbursed for his time by the club. He has friends at the club and he's grown up there. That's why he should care. I don't think that means the club should hang on to him to its own detriment. Lake has been a great servant of the club for years and the club has supported him duly.

If it's deemed that it would be in the clubs best interest to move him on then i think the club has a responsibility to do that. Lake's wants aren't relevant, it should be the club before the individual. Realistically trading Lake out means an upgrade from 27 > 11 this year and it would also mean we'd leak a lot more goals next year, perhaps we'd perform worse than we would with him and land a higher draft pick in 2013. So moving him on could mean getting two highly rated youngsters into the club, which could really set us up 2015 onward.

Hypothetically: Imagine you owned a business and had a worker who had been with you for 15 years but was getting on and was past his best. An opportunity arose where you could pay him out and place him in another job and replace him with one or two younger, more creative and ambitious types, who could really help grow your business. Would you do this for your business or would you allow them to walk to a competitor, out of some misplaced loyalty for your old colleague?
 

woofles

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Firstly, I think your "one rule for some players and another for others" line undermines your argument. That aside, a player should give a toss about the club because it has put its faith in him, selected him above other potential prospects and then put its time and its resources into Lake. Let's not forget he's also been handsomely reimbursed for his time by the club. He has friends at the club and he's grown up there. That's why he should care. I don't think that means the club should hang on to him to its own detriment. Lake has been a great servant of the club for years and the club has supported him duly.

If it's deemed that it would be in the clubs best interest to move him on then i think the club has a responsibility to do that. Lake's wants aren't relevant, it should be the club before the individual. Realistically trading Lake out means an upgrade from 27 > 11 this year and it would also mean we'd leak a lot more goals next year, perhaps we'd perform worse than we would with him and land a higher draft pick in 2013. So moving him on could mean getting two highly rated youngsters into the club, which could really set us up 2015 onward.

Hypothetically: Imagine you owned a business and had a worker who had been with you for 15 years but was getting on and was past his best. An opportunity arose where you could pay him out and place him in another job and replace him with one or two younger, more creative and ambitious types, who could really help grow your business. Would you do this for your business or would you allow them to walk to a competitor, out of some misplaced loyalty for your old colleague?
Would you do the same to Dale Morris?
 

Nath09

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Would you do the same to Dale Morris?
Lake recaptured some of his form this year. He is a quality player and arguably worth the upgrade from 27 > 11. Morris hasn't played football in 18 months and is coming off a severely broken leg. He has no currency so there is no point in trading him.
 

woofles

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Lake recaptured some of his form this year. He is a quality player and arguably worth the upgrade from 27 > 11. Morris hasn't played football in 18 months and is coming off a severely broken leg. He has no currency so there is no point in trading him.
Well if we are to be as ruthless as you suggest he surely has no place on the list and should be delisted?
 

murphy2bedabest

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Well if we are to be as ruthless as you suggest he surely has no place on the list and should be delisted?
I think you have it wrong there, he's saying no other club will seek a trade for Morris, but might for lake, that's all
 

woofles

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I think you have it wrong there, he's saying no other club will seek a trade for Morris, but might for lake, that's all
And Im saying that if we are treating players like stocks Morris is damaged goods, who is already on the decline so surely if we are being as ruthless as Nath demands he should be delisted to get another prospective kid on the list?
 

Nath09

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I don't think I'm advocating ruthlessness. I just think the club should do what is in its best interests and not put individual players ahead of team success. Personally, with 6 delistings to date and 3-4 more to come, I don't think there is a need to delist Morris this year. If he struggles next year then perhaps we should...

I think good arguments can be made about disrupting the stability of a team and destroying the fabric of a team by trading out its "spiritual leaders". Admittedly, its complex. I think the players should definitely have a voice. I would assume that trading out Morris would create more disharmony than trading out Lake but that's pure speculation. I'll leave it for the football department to judge. If it turned out that trading Lake would upset several players or cause friction within the team then of course the potential trade should be questioned...after all, that move may not be so beneficial for the club (it may lead to players requesting trades or performing poorly due to low morale).
 

Nath09

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Lake is on about $600,000 a year? The club has stuck by him through injury and illness early in his career. The club is now sticking by Morris through injury and gave him a chance as a mature ager through the rookie draft when no one else would. No one is being treated like cattle, nor am I suggesting they should be.
 

murphy2bedabest

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And Im saying that if we are treating players like stocks Morris is damaged goods, who is already on the decline so surely if we are being as ruthless as Nath demands he should be delisted to get another prospective kid on the list?
If you look at my posts I was the one who said that Morris Gia and cross should be looked at as ones to maybe tap on the shoulder :)
 

dogwatch

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One of the paradoxes with this loyalty debate is that we're talking about a highly competitive team sport, and not just - as some would have it - about an employer/employee relationship.

The coach exhorts the players to run and tackle until they can hardly stand, to shed their blood and put their body in the way of serious harm - all for the sake of team and teammates. That whole success and motivation thing is built on team spirit and loyalty to club and mates. There is also the unswerving loyalty of tens of thousands of fans making a mighty roar as they watch the game and cheer their heroes and their club colours.

However as soon as the season is over the club accountants count the receipts and the player goes home and checks his healthy bank balance. It shifts to a commercial arrangement. And then it's back again to "die for the team", next weekend or next season.

The coach and footy ops - the people who earlier had asked players to make such massive sacrifices for their club - reassess at year's end and decide that for the club to improve and succeed there have to be changes, so inevitably there will be collateral damage to some on the playing list.

Only the supporters are 100% about loyalty. The one thing everyone wants is a premiership but for the players and the club it's maybe around 70% loyalty-30% commercial and they have to be smart enough to understand this and pragmatic enough to manage it.

In the days when players took the field for peanuts (with only a few under the counter deals) loyalty was a simple and fairly constant thing. However the more money is involved, the more the concept of loyalty is compromised.

I have great respect for the Chris Grants of the AFL and indeed anyone who turns down an attractive offer to remain a "one-club player" but as the Callum Ward example showed, everybody has their price and dollars will trump loyalty 9 times out of 10.

I don't like it much, but clubs, players and fans just have to live with these continual contradictions in values and shifting from saying one thing mid-season to doing another at year's end.
 

woofles

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Oh please Nath, thats hypocritical bullshit. You wouldnt trade/delist Morris because it would be akin to shooting Bambi, you dont afford the same treatment to Lake because he doesnt have the same 'heart and soul' to the club disposition that Morris does. You said the club should be run as a business, using your own terminology would you keep on a terminally ill worker who wont be around much longer even if they recover or retire them and hire a brand shiney new worker? You want to treat these players like cattle dont back down about it when you have to make a tough decision and its time to put down the family pet.

I bet Ross Lyon used a lot of the same arguments that you used in getting rid of Luke Ball (also a spiritual leader as you use the term). 12 months down the line you take Ball out of Collingwood and put him back into a St Kilda jumper and they win flag number 2. The minute you start treating players as less than people you start pissing on your own leg.
 
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