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2012 list management.

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Sunny_ said:
I can understand your position and your argument, just don't agree with everything. I hope he gets picked up by another club too. :thumbsu: Same with the others.
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You've made your case well, and I respect your position. We just have to agree to disagree I suppose. In the end, Iles didn't deserve to be dropped when he was this year, that much is obvious, and if he were 20, there is no way he would be even close to being delisted. It is not as though he is riding on that B&F, in my opinion he was still improving throughout 2012. He would be even better in 2013. It is just that Bluey values youth over ability. I hope some of those guys with potential become the player that Iles is, and even better, but it shouldn't be a surprise when many of them don't.
 
Also, RE: Hunt, before anyone jumps on me for that.

While I can agree that he's not as good as Iles when it comes to raw numbers (ignoring the fact they play different positions), I would pick Hunt over Iles any day simply because of the grunt and leadership he provides to the group as a whole.
 

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Sunny_ said:
Oh, just me advertising people to come and join the discussion if they want for a topical thing to happen to the Suns. Always good to get BigFooty across the net.
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Ahh sweet :) It'd be good to hear some other opinions. Most guys over at the Suns facebook page are bemoaning the loss of Iles too. It is certainly an interesting call from Bluey and co. People don't seem to be happy about Magin either.
 
I'll be honest, the Suns Facebook page is a troll breeding ground, 95% of which being made up of people who hate the Suns. Go figure. ;)

Case in point people on there calling for Bluey's head. In reality, he probably didn't have much of a say in who gets cut. He'd certainly have some voice, but it wouldn't be a majority at all. Clayton, Ashcroft and Blight would all have pretty big influences there.
 
Sunny_ said:
Also, RE: Hunt, before anyone jumps on me for that.

While I can agree that he's not as good as Iles when it comes to raw numbers (ignoring the fact they play different positions), I would pick Hunt over Iles any day simply because of the grunt and leadership he provides to the group as a whole.
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I'm a fan of what Hunt has been able to do. He will keep improving too, no doubt. But I think he gets a lot of credit simply because of his story, if he were just another recruit playing at Hunt's current level, there wouldn't be as much praise for him. He has probably got himself to the level of someone like Sam Lonergan from Essendon. Can play some good games, always gives 100%, but doesn't get enough of the ball, skills aren't quite up to it, a little inconsistent, and would be a fringe player at most clubs. What Hunt has over Sam is that he is more likely to improve in the next few years. He is a fair bit more athletic too. But both are about equal on current ability.
 
I am so saddened at the delisting of Sammy Isles but glad at the signing of the BULL.
It is a bitter sweet pill really. Sammy did not deserve to be delisted and his stats have proven this but I do agree that the boys were bought in to do a job and the club sees that job as done which to me is so unfair. Bull has shown his worth as he is very versatile but I thought Sammy was amazing when he played also. But Sammy's delisting has rocked many supporters and is certainly not a popular decision. Yes it is a young team and they may not be in their plans moving forward but we have dead wood in Brennan and Brown floating around and yes I know they are still contracted but I would pay them out and have kept Sammy.
Bock, Rischa and Harbrow are also on their last year of their contract and I think some of these will be casualties next year but we cannot excel for a few years on just kids alone and that is where Sammy and Bull are fantastic after all they are only 24 and 25 and have many years of footy left.
I hope Sammy goes back to Melbourne and gets snapped up by another club. I hope he enters into the draft and PSD and goes where he is valued.
 
It's a numbers game and Sam didn't fit.
He was a good player but not quite good enough
As for Iles vs Hunt..there are so many ways K is better
1.Tackling
2.Protection off the ball
3.Running
4 Winning games after the siren
5 Publicity
6 Man-love from middle aged male Suns supporters

Kicking and general skills..maybe not..but K is in our best 22...Sam isn't and won't be
 
Sammy gets delisted !!!
we [now you] have dead wood in Brennan and Brown as well as liam lame pickering [no i have spelt it right] floating around and yes I know they are still contracted or re contracted but I would pay them out and have kept Sammy
I am one unhappy soon to be ex-paid up foundation member
i will be delisting the suns
no more family trips to qld from melbourne to watch the games
hope sammy gets picked up in vic
well done bull 2 more years
see you in melbourne
 
pocketback said:
Sammy gets delisted !!!
we [now you] have dead wood in Brennan and Brown as well as liam lame pickering [no i have spelt it right] floating around and yes I know they are still contracted or re contracted but I would pay them out and have kept Sammy
I am one unhappy soon to be ex-paid up foundation member
i will be delisting the suns
no more family trips to qld from melbourne to watch the games
hope sammy gets picked up in vic
well done bull 2 more years
see you in melbourne
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huh?
 

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SandyToes said:
It's a numbers game and Sam didn't fit.
He was a good player but not quite good enough
As for Iles vs Hunt..there are so many ways K is better
1.Tackling
2.Protection off the ball
3.Running
4 Winning games after the siren
5 Publicity
6 Man-love from middle aged male Suns supporters

Kicking and general skills..maybe not..but K is in our best 22...Sam isn't and won't be
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4, 5, and 6? Hehe. I am guessing you ran out of things to list after tackling and protection of the ball. Running is questionable, I'd like to see their respective beep tests. Here is my list of things that Iles is better than K at:

1. Playing football :)

Let's not forget that Iles was Box Hill's best and fairest, before joining the suns and winning their best and fairest, was 3rd in the Liston Medal playing off of half back... the guy can seriously play. It is not a knock on campaigner that he is not quite at Iles' standard yet.
 
I found a Sam Iles beep test: Sam Iles (Collingwood – PSD #2) - 14.6. That was back in 2005 as a youngster, be surprised if he wasn't fitter now. I doubt K could get that. So we have to define what we mean by 'better runner'. Maybe K has a faster sprint speed? Not sure, but Iles would have him on endurance.
 
Wow, polar reactions on this one. Probably our first in house genuine 50/50 discussion?

My 2cents, perhaps Iles couldn't be afforded anymore? Maybe he was on a decent wage? Perhaps butted heads with coaching staff? Defensive game/running was really poor.

To say Bluey and co are into youth, and only youth is bullshit. Last year we picked up Warnock, this year we've picked up Murphy, and re-signed Stanley. So the age isn't a factor. It must be to do with his game, or his off field demeanour? Might not be meeting KPI's that have been set for him?

Best and fairest result from 3 years ago is a bit crap. Rischitelli won the Lions best and fairest 2 years ago in the highest league not ressies, but every now and then this year people were calling for him to be traded/dropped/delisted with his injuries and continual selection. Might be a case of the rumour about Rodan at Port, refusing to where a GPS unit which proves his defensive workrate.

I'm neither please, or displeased with the decision to be honest. Doesn't phase me and I think his career is probably over at 27 and only played 30 odd games of AFL. Can't see it continuiing at another club.
 
supernova_ said:
Wow, polar reactions on this one. Probably our first in house genuine 50/50 discussion?

My 2cents, perhaps Iles couldn't be afforded anymore? Maybe he was on a decent wage? Perhaps butted heads with coaching staff? Defensive game/running was really poor.

To say Bluey and co are into youth, and only youth is bullshit. Last year we picked up Warnock, this year we've picked up Murphy, and re-signed Stanley. So the age isn't a factor. It must be to do with his game, or his off field demeanour? Might not be meeting KPI's that have been set for him?

Best and fairest result from 3 years ago is a bit crap. Rischitelli won the Lions best and fairest 2 years ago in the highest league not ressies, but every now and then this year people were calling for him to be traded/dropped/delisted with his injuries and continual selection. Might be a case of the rumour about Rodan at Port, refusing to where a GPS unit which proves his defensive workrate.

I'm neither please, or displeased with the decision to be honest. Doesn't phase me and I think his career is probably over at 27 and only played 30 odd games of AFL. Can't see it continuiing at another club.
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1. Running isn't likely to be poor. He is pretty elite endurance-wise.
2. I don't believe anyone has said they are only into youth, what I said was they valued youth/potential over current ability.
3. B&F from three years ago is crap, which is why nobody has only offered that as a reason to keep him. It has merely been pointed out to argue against the idea that he didn't run defensively in the NEAFL, as players who don't do the team thing rarely win B&Fs. He won Box Hill's B&F the year before that as well. Not to mention coming third in the Liston. However, more telling of Iles current ability is the fact that he featured in Suns' best seven out of the ten games he played, and did not underperform in the other games either. The only player more consistent in that period was Ablett. Not only his stats are testament to his ability, but I urge everyone who is regurgitating this crap about him having "poor defensive abilities" to go back and watch the replays. I am sure you will see the guy is very capable defensively.
4. He's more worthy than most kids and mature agers that will be recruited this year. He may not get re-drafted, but it won't be because he is not good enough to play. His playing days have been distinguished. A very good player who was unlucky to be recruited into a strong team initially where he could hardly get a look in, then recruited to a team that undervalued him. He will do well if he does get picked up by another team. Sydney, Port, Brisbane, or Western Bulldogs should take a serious look at him.
 
Just because someone has good endurance doesn't mean they use it well in a game, especially defensively. I'm not happy about it either but it's pretty arrogant to think you know more than the coaching staff at an AFL club particularly when you don't see their games live.
 
juzzo said:
Just because someone has good endurance doesn't mean they use it well in a game, especially defensively. I'm not happy about it either but it's pretty arrogant to think you know more than the coaching staff at an AFL club particularly when you don't see their games live.
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What supporter doesn't though? Go look at Adelaide's board at the moment, every poster there thinks they know more than Adelaide's recruiting staff. Who doesn't question coaches decisions? It is not like they are 100% right all the time. It's a pretty poor argument to fall back on the old "the coaches know more than you" line. What about Hawthorn's decision to trade out Josh Kennedy? You don't think people were critical of that at the time? Maybe they would take that decision back if they could. There are millions more examples where coaches and list managers haven't got things right. You can find at least 20 examples in every draft where recruiters have got things very wrong.

It is not as though I am basing my arguments on thin air. I have put forward a number of good reasons to support my conclusion. I don't expect everyone to agree with me, but it would be nice if people were more open to discussion than just trying to shut me down on the premise that I am not a coach.

PS: I won't respond to anyone's posts for a few hours, I am supposed to be writing an essay right now, but am very easily distracted and prone to procrastination. I better get back to it, and try to ignore bigfooty for a while :D
 

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I don't remember much criticism for the Kennedy trade at the time other than for his surname. Nobody knew he would become the player he is. Same thing with the draft, predicting the future is very difficult and the experts will still get plenty wrong. However these examples cannot be compared with a coach's appraisal of a present players worth.
Yes, everyone questions decisions but I do so in the knowledge that I don't get to see things from their perspective. For the life of me I can't work out how Maxwell finished 5th in the B&F, but I am quite happy to concede to those who have proven football knowledge.
 
Having followed Sam Iles from day one and supporting teams that have delisted him twice, I am not surprised at all. Firstly, I don't think anyone genuinely believes he was in our best 10 players. Lets be honest he was a fringe 22 guy. To that extent what does he offer to the team? If you were in the selection meeting, and the concensus was to play a kid over Iles, what argument would you use against this happening? You can't say: "we'll we can't drop Iles because he offers us so much ..... ?"? What could you say that he offers the team that a kid wouldn't? He has no real weapons at all. Conversely he has really only one weakness and that is his defensive intensity or work rate. He's a jack of all trades master of none who has a weakness. Nothing you can hang your hat on and say he offers this.
 
darkwingduck said:
Having followed Sam Iles from day one and supporting teams that have delisted him twice, I am not surprised at all. Firstly, I don't think anyone genuinely believes he was in our best 10 players. Lets be honest he was a fringe 22 guy. To that extent what does he offer to the team? If you were in the selection meeting, and the concensus was to play a kid over Iles, what argument would you use against this happening? You can't say: "we'll we can't drop Iles because he offers us so much ..... ?"? What could you say that he offers the team that a kid wouldn't? He has no real weapons at all. Conversely he has really only one weakness and that is his defensive intensity or work rate. He's a jack of all trades master of none who has a weakness. Nothing you can hang your hat on and say he offers this.
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1. Pretty hard to argue that if he is not top ten, he is very close to top ten even if we agree that he is not. We have already been through that argument at length. Even among players I generously conceded were better than Iles (Brennan for example), very few of them were much better than Iles. Only really Ablett, Bock, and Bennell are much better than Iles. Most people over estimate kids. They think because they have big reputations as juniors, that they are going to automatically be a-graders. A brief glance at history tells a very different story. Don't forget, despite being Bleuy's whipping by in 2011, he came 9th in the best and fairest from only 16 games. He played WAY better this year than last year, he would easily be top 10 in their best and fairest again if Bluey didn't want the embarrassment of delisting a ten game player who finished top 10 in the best and fairest. It was a general consensus around round 12 that Iles would have been top 5 best and fairest at that time, if you don't believe me, go back and look through those threads.

2. He is consistently better than the rest of them. What else is there to offer? Why would I play some kid who, in all likelihood, won't be half the player Iles currently is, and is currently not even close to his current level of ability? I would tell the people in the meeting that I am interested in winning games, and Iles gives me a better chance of winning than those kids give me. What do the kids offer over Iles is the better question. Nothing, in most of their cases.

3. Before people say that again, I would really like people to show me some examples of Iles poor work rate or lack of defense. It is easy to say now that Bluey has said it, but it is funny that I can't recall a single person during the season call Iles out on his poor defensive abilities or lack of work rate. Isn't that amazing? I find it incredible that all of a sudden, people are criticising his work rate and defensive abilities.

Let's see if we can find evidence of a poor work rate or lack of defensive abilities. Harbrow plays a similar role to Iles. Let's do a player comparison:

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/...1=1670&tid2=24&pid2=1821&type=A&fid1=S&fid2=S

Iles pretty much owns him on every single offensive stat that counts. What about defensive? Well, they have the same amount of tackles per game - 2.2. Iles owns him for rebound 50s. Harbrow does do more one percenters (1.5 - 2.5). Not really seeing any great evidence for a lack of defensive ability. I am seeing a lot of evidence for a higher workrate. Stats like Iles spends 92.1% of his time on the ground. That's massive. Comparable to Ablett and Stanley. If he were defending poorly, looking tired, or needed a rev up from the coach, surely he would be being pulled from the field more than other running players like Harbrow (85%), Bock (76%), Shaw (80%), and Brennan (87%).
 
If Sam gets picked up by another club and punishes us, that's footy
The AFL said we had to cut our list, and he was always going to be a 50:50 to stay or go.
I very much appreciated his effort and we all hope he gets a chance somewhere else where the list pressure isn't quite as acute.
BTW..can anyone shed any light on how we're compensated for not being eligible to Veteran List players?
Seems unfair
 
I have followed both boys thru their careers and I am very disappointed Sammy has been delisted. He is a fantastic young man and both Stanners and Sammy have helped nuture the younger players. The young oned seek advise and help from them and they have shared a house with a couple of the younger boys in a mentoring role. It is not always about stats and possessions you have to look at leadership on and off the field as well and both the boys are up there in that department. GC are going to miss a fine young man who is in the best 22 when allowed to play in his natural position and more importantly a fine role model for the young.
So sorry Sammy you are leaving but I will follow you wherever you end up again.
On a happier note great to see Stanners finally rewarded with a 2 year deal. He has amazing leadership qualities and would not be surprised if he is rewarded next season for that.
 

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