List Mgmt. 2013 Draft Discussion

[Aldo]

I don't, but he had the same average in under 18 champs what is the reason for that?

Probably the fact that he is the only player in the whole championships who cops a tag. The mere fact that he even gets tagged at all at a level where it is almost unheard of, is a testament to how highly he is rated.

 

[Clay]

Give me a damaging 20 touch player over a 35 touch accumulator any day.

 

[TBOW]

The biggest concern I have about us getting Aish is a team balance issue.

I get the impression (and someone please correct me if I'm wrong) that he is not very strong overhead.
I'm not knocking the kid as he clearly is an exceptional talent, but I personally would like to see whoever we take at 4 have a strong marking game as well as that outside silk (yes, I want it all).

I guess that puts guys like Bontempelli, KK, and even Billings who is the same height as Aish but much stronger in the air in the frame.

I watched this year's gf on tv for the first time last night & the thing that stood out the most to me was the importance of being able to hold a mark in those pressure situations. I feel like our midfield still lacks a couple more tall guys who are able to do that. Especially now that Cross is gone. I don't think Crameri is the answer either.

For the record I have a feeling that Bontempelli will go to GWS at 2. They also need some height through the middle and more than any other team can afford to be speculative. If not Bontempelli, than Sharenberg, Billings or KK, I just don't see them taking Kelly.

 

[Super Hans]

I just don't know how you can call Aish 'not worth a first round pick' and 'has no weapons' when all you've seen is 5 minutes of footage.

 

[Chris Grant]

I am not saying freeman has no weaknesses. I accept that, he does have some elite qualities and it is not like he is not being considered fairly high by others

It seems our board refuses to consider alternatives. The thread should be renamed from draft discussion to Aish is our Ace. Any question about Aish is howled down with an unnatural level of emotion. And yet, the evidence I see does not support this lofty status. On that evidence, Gibbs is way classier, has a better side step, and uses it better. It is possible his highlights and his u18 champ performance don't do him justice but surely that should be of concern.

If against the best juniors he can not shine he is unlikely to shine in the AFL any time soon.

Perhaps, kolo, Sharenberg, freeman, bontempelli, Salem and billings are the next best options after Boyd, Kelly

I rate freeman because he breaks lines, he is in and under and outside he loves to carry the ball, he is explosive running out of a pack, he is not selfish and likes to link up, his short kicks are elite, he can kick it over 50 metres and he gut runs. He is something between Kerr and dangerfield's style. Philosophically, I have more confidence in this style

I have no problem with people saying "I think we should pass on Aish". I've stated the possible reasons why he could be overlooked. It's just the way in which you are doing it which I don't agree with. Comparing stats to Freeman when the circumstances were totally different. One got tagged, one didn't. And saying he won't or shouldn't go first round because you saw a highlights video is not the way to do it.

 

[timtamWB]

Problem with outside silk: if your any good, there will be no outside. So then you need good contested ball skills or elite pace to create the outside.

I don't understand this at all. If you are good, then there will be an outside as you spread from the contest. We've got the good contested ball skills already, what we are lacking is the outside option AFTER we create the outside. That's what we're crying out for.

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

The biggest concern I have about us getting Aish is a team balance issue.

I get the impression (and someone please correct me if I'm wrong) that he is not very strong overhead.
I'm not knocking the kid as he clearly is an exceptional talent, but I personally would like to see whoever we take at 4 have a strong marking game as well as that outside silk (yes, I want it all).

I guess that puts guys like Bontempelli, KK, and even Billings who is the same height as Aish but much stronger in the air in the frame.

I watched this year's gf on tv for the first time last night & the thing that stood out the most to me was the importance of being able to hold a mark in those pressure situations. I feel like our midfield still lacks a couple more tall guys who are able to do that. Especially now that Cross is gone. I don't think Crameri is the answer either.

For the record I have a feeling that Bontempelli will go to GWS at 2. They also need some height through the middle and more than any other team can afford to be speculative. If not Bontempelli, than Sharenberg, Billings or KK, I just don't see them taking Kelly.

For his size, he's very impressive one on one and overhead. Not an issue I see in taking him.

 

[Kony Abbott]

People knocking Aish for his various flaws, yes you are probably right, but if you have an 18 year old kid who has pace and skills, and a strong inside game and is good overhead with elite endurance, he doesn't make it past #1 in any draft. Ryan Griffen was drafted as a skinny outside player who played off the half back flank for us, Aish has a couple of years playing against full grown men under his belt and has the outside polish we desperately need. he is a lock for me.

 

[yebiga]

I have no problem with people saying "I think we should pass on Aish". I've stated the possible reasons why he could be overlooked. It's just the way in which you are doing it which I don't agree with. Comparing stats to Freeman when the circumstances were totally different. One got tagged, one didn't. And saying he won't or shouldn't go first round because you saw a highlights video is not the way to do it.

Chris , I accept that I have over stated my case
But there is just too much love for Aish for my liking
He is quality but he is a little vanilla for me, in other words he does not add much we don't have
He will make a decent footballer and maybe even a very good one

Others, I believe have a higher upside
Kolo' s left foot is very damaging
Sharenberg is super strong, ready to go and a great mark
Freeman super explosive gives everything in and out
Bompelli? Tall quick and also breaks lines
Salem also quick, strong and elusive

No doubt Aish is the most natural footballer and BMac does like that
But he is a little too outside and this maybe because of him coming back from a shoulder but that call will be made by the club - but he has good family pedigree so he will better then good

Does not mean others won't pass him and be more valuable

Personally, I like kolo, berg, and freeman best of all and find it hard to split
I will. Concede that Aish is probably a surer bet for being decent but the other 3 I feel have a much higher potential amongst the big boys.

I am always seduced by players who display passion with how they play. Freeman has that in spades.
I think of last years crop, our hunter and Hrovat show that too and whilst stringer, Macrae have more attributes hunter and hrovats enthusiasm when on the ground is in danger of taking them past the other two. You sense they want the ball all the time and when the opposition has it they are crazy about getting it back. You cannot teach that.

So when posters talk of qualities like reading the play, I say, show me the passion. Show me brad Johnsons passion and you only need a few other attributes to take you past 95 % of the rest them. Look at our jarred grant, he is so talented with great attributes but his passion for the contest has been a long time coming and may still wax and wane.

Aish maybe had a season where he was troubled by his shoulder and ginger about contests that would explain his lack of passion in his pursuit of the ball. He strikes me otherwise as too careful.

 

[Aldo]

The biggest concern I have about us getting Aish is a team balance issue.

I get the impression (and someone please correct me if I'm wrong) that he is not very strong overhead.
I'm not knocking the kid as he clearly is an exceptional talent, but I personally would like to see whoever we take at 4 have a strong marking game as well as that outside silk (yes, I want it all).

I guess that puts guys like Bontempelli, KK, and even Billings who is the same height as Aish but much stronger in the air in the frame.

I watched this year's gf on tv for the first time last night & the thing that stood out the most to me was the importance of being able to hold a mark in those pressure situations. I feel like our midfield still lacks a couple more tall guys who are able to do that. Especially now that Cross is gone. I don't think Crameri is the answer either.

For the record I have a feeling that Bontempelli will go to GWS at 2. They also need some height through the middle and more than any other team can afford to be speculative. If not Bontempelli, than Sharenberg, Billings or KK, I just don't see them taking Kelly.

From what I've seen Aish is surprisingly good overhead. Seen him take quite a few contested marks in his SANFL games. He probably isn't as good as the guys you mentioned above, but those guys are very exceptional in that area. Bontempelli and KK more because of their height and athleticism and Billings is just a massive outlier in marking ability for someone of his height. I'd say Aish is very above average.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

We should take Kelly/Aish, and if both are taken then maybe take KK.

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

Chris , I accept that I have over stated my case
But there is just too much love for Aish for my liking
He is quality but he is a little vanilla for me, in other words he does not add much we don't have
He will make a decent footballer and maybe even a very good one

The problem is that you seem so obsessed with downplaying Aish's abilities that your arguments are filled with inconsistencies and double standards.

For example, you say that Aish has nothing special. Talk to any recruiter, any draft watcher, anybody who's seen him play a single game and they'll tell you he's an elite kick on both sides and has an explosive first few steps. Add to that his dynamic sidestep and you've got a very smooth midfielder.

Here's another example: you say that Aish doesn't add much that we don't have, then go on to say that Freeman does. Let me break it down for you:
Freeman - speedy inside accumulator with poor skills under pressure and in packs.
Aish - speedy outside ball-winner with elite skills and impressive decision making.
Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but throughout the entire year all of our supporters agreed that our list was filled with too many Freemans, and that we needed an Aish. How, then, can you say that Freeman offers more that we don't have? It makes zero sense.

If you want to argue against getting Aish, that's absolutely fine. He has his flaws and I can understand the hits on him. Argue that he's too outside, that you're not sure whether he can put weight on, whether he'll handle AFL level pressure. But don't make up things to try and downplay him and argue against him based on stats. 16 disposals for an outside midfielder getting tagged against men is ridiculous. 21 for an inside midfielder not getting tagged against kids his own age isn't that flash.

Aish has been in the top two 2013 prospects for almost two years now for a reason. I don't mind you arguing against him, but when you say something like Aish - the guy who's been thought of as a potential #1-2 pick for two years now - "has nothing special," then you're going to get shot down.

 

[yebiga]

The problem is that you seem so obsessed with downplaying Aish's abilities that your arguments are filled with inconsistencies and double standards.

For example, you say that Aish has nothing special. Talk to any recruiter, any draft watcher, anybody who's seen him play a single game and they'll tell you he's an elite kick on both sides and has an explosive first few steps. Add to that his dynamic sidestep and you've got a very smooth midfielder.

Here's another example: you say that Aish doesn't add much that we don't have, then go on to say that Freeman does. Let me break it down for you:
Freeman - speedy inside accumulator with poor skills under pressure and in packs.
Aish - speedy outside ball-winner with elite skills and impressive decision making.
Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but throughout the entire year all of our supporters agreed that our list was filled with too many Freemans, and that we needed an Aish. How, then, can you say that Freeman offers more that we don't have? It makes zero sense.

If you want to argue against getting Aish, that's absolutely fine. He has his flaws and I can understand the hits on him. Argue that he's too outside, that you're not sure whether he can put weight on, whether he'll handle AFL level pressure. But don't make up things to try and downplay him and argue against him based on stats. 16 disposals for an outside midfielder getting tagged against men is ridiculous. 21 for an inside midfielder not getting tagged against kids his own age isn't that flash.

Aish has been in the top two 2013 prospects for almost two years now for a reason. I don't mind you arguing against him, but when you say something like Aish - the guy who's been thought of as a potential #1-2 pick for two years now - "has nothing special," then you're going to get shot down.

There are two problems with what you have written
1 he averages 16 against kids too
2 freeman breaks lines and has pace both of which we lack
So your twisting the argument every bit as much as you suggest I am

What is it with this love for Aish?

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

There are two problems with what you have written
1 he averages 16 against kids too
2 freeman breaks lines and has pace both of which we lack
So your twisting the argument every bit as much as you suggest I am

What is it with this love for Aish?

You're either just trying to get a response out of people by disagreeing with them or only half reading replies. I haven't twisted anything.

1. Possessions only count for anything in context. How many inside midfielders renowned for their ball winning ability gather only 21 disposals? How many outside midfielders win more than 16, especially when tagged? Hardly any. You can't judge a better player by possession counts. Jarryd Roughead gets less possessions than Cross, therefore Cross must be the better player. Boyd gets more disposals than Stevie J, therefore Boyd is a better player. For a tagged outside midfielder 16 disposals is very good, regardless of what comp you're in. For an unchecked inside midfielder 21 disposals are average. I just can't understand how you're arguing for Freeman on the basis of disposals when they're different players. Do you compare Jordan Roughead to Tom Campbell by saying that Campbell kicks more goals so is therefore the better player?

2. I said he was speedy; in fact, it was the first thing I said. He's very fast. My point was simply that you can have a fast outside midfielder with sublime skills or a fast inside midfielder with poor skills when under pressure. Your argument was that Freeman offers more of what we don't have...you're either basing that entirely on his speed, or you haven't seen either player play.

 

[Super Hans]

I wouldn't bother anymore Dannnnnnnnnn. He is only reading the parts of everyone's replies that he wants to.

 

[timtamWB]

There are two problems with what you have written
1 he averages 16 against kids too
2 freeman breaks lines and has pace both of which we lack
So your twisting the argument every bit as much as you suggest I am

What is it with this love for Aish?

Freeman doesn't get tagged, Aish always gets tagged. Aish gives us speed, skills, great decision making and outside ball winning ability, which we have a dearth of. Freeman is another inside mid and while he can be explosive, there's a reason that he doesn't get tagged, it's because teams don't think he can hurt them as much as the other prospects, and his disposal is suspect under pressure.

Aish complements us perfectly.

 

[TBOW]

From what I've seen Aish is surprisingly good overhead. Seen him take quite a few contested marks in his SANFL games. He probably isn't as good as the guys you mentioned above, but those guys are very exceptional in that area. Bontempelli and KK more because of their height and athleticism and Billings is just a massive outlier in marking ability for someone of his height. I'd say Aish is very above average.

That's good to know. Aish would compliment our midfield nicely, but I would still like to get another bigger body mid/back into the team.

Maybe we can address it later in the draft with someone like Cutler, Miller, Robertson, Bourke, Wasley-Black or Favretto.

Has anyone got an angle on any of these guys?

 

[yebiga]

Inside mids who handball off or quickly kick the ball need to be around the 30 possy mark
Inside mids who can run away from the pack, carry the ball 30-50 meters, gut run and link up - now that is rare

As for 16 possessions being adequate for someone who is an outside mid in a quality team, the leading team - it simply is not unless the player is setting up and kicking regular goals or saving goals. Aish to me looks like Macrae without the elite elusiveness.

Freeman brings match winning line breaking ability - now you can suggest he won't be able to that in the afl
I
But don't just ignore that we lack that run

 

[Super Hans]

We lack speed, good skills and an elite kick, all of which Aish has.

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

Again, you've read only part of my post and then made up the rest. I'm not going to bother writing the same thing for the third time.

 

[GiantDog]

I'd give it to round 3 of next year before all the supporters start swearing for dalrymples head when they see Freeman drop the ball straight onto the bootlaces (because he doesn't handball…that says to me unlike our good mate libba he doesn't have that vision to find a target in congestion…) and clear the zone only to kick it straight back to the opposition. A Faster more explosive matthew boyd for mine. I personally don't prefer Aish, i like sheed. I just think he is a safe pick.

 

[Super Hans]

FWIW my preference is still Scharenberg.

 

[FootyFan40]

If you're in the bottom 25% in all bar the jumps in the athletic testing, that's not testing well. He may have got many pb's, but compared to everyone else he was very ordinary.

My understanding is that apart from the top 10 the results aren't released. Please let me know where to find the info if this isn't correct, Cheers

 

[Footyking123]

That's good to know. Aish would compliment our midfield nicely, but I would still like to get another bigger body mid/back into the team.

Maybe we can address it later in the draft with someone like Cutler, Miller, Robertson, Bourke, Wasley-Black or Favretto.

Has anyone got an angle on any of these guys?

Cutler is a good player and a good height. Has a good mark and skills. Cutler can play at either end of the ground and through the middle. Hasnt played much footy this year due to an ankle injury but is a good outside option with some pace.

Miller is athletic and a good ball getter averaging 23 possesions in the Tac Cup in a struggling team with the pioneers. Likes to take the game on with his run and carry. Has some pace and a good overhead mark. Can ready the game well and has good footskills. A good outside option to complement our inside midfielders.

Bourke for me doesn't do enough to be rated as highly as he is. In a team like geelong he should be racking it up on the outside getting on the end of handball recieves from his team mates but just doesn't do that enough. Saying that he is fairly athletic and has a good over head mark and decent skills. Should get more of the ball though.

Wasley-Black has had a disapointing year didn't really do much in the nationals in the division two where it's a lot weaker than division one. To be considered an early option he would have really had to play well there. Is an athletic player though who can offer some dash and has good endurance. Would be a decent option late.

In order of preference and their range, Miller 25-45, Cutler 30,50, Robertson 20-60, Wasley-Black 40-70

 

[yebiga]

Well, this board is delusional

Position:
Midfielder
Height:
182cm
Weight:
85kg
Born:
16/6/95
Home club:
Sandringham Dragons
2013 STATS
Comp P K* H* M* G
U18s 3
12.7 7.3 3.3 0

TAC Cup
7
15.4
7.0
4.7 4


*Average
The inside word
Another genuine clearance specialist with elite endurance and pace, Freeman tested impressively at the NAB AFL Draft Combine. The youngster from the Sandringham Dragons took out the repeat sprint event and came second in the 20m sprint testing, while also recording a top 10 result in the beep test and 3km time trial. An accomplished ball-user on the outside with an explosive change of direction, Freeman also has the ability to find his own ball with his strong build and ability to read the contest. He improved the defensive aspect of his game in 2013 and will be a tantalising prospect for any club looking for a line-breaking midfielder.