List Mgmt. 2013 Draft Discussion

[Igloo]

Spencer will go earlier than 60 imo; a club would be prepared to take him earlier given how awful the KPP stocks are. I would expect him to go around the 50 mark. If he's there though I'd probably have a look.

Ugh, no, not Holman. Not a fan. Awful decision maker and a poor kick from what I've seen.

McCartney will be a stay at home small forward at AFL level imo, and he's not particularly elite in the regards you need to be to make it there. He's like a rabid attack dog and applies some excellent tackling pressure, but he's horribly inconsistent. Does have some attributes that I like and that separate him from those "similar" players, but I wouldn't touch him with anything more than a rookie pick, personally. I'm just not sure I see where the improvement comes from if he doesn't move into the midfield.

Maybe. I wouldn't be totally against getting him at 42 if it did happen, but there will be a few better options available, so we wont.


I actually think Holman's decision making is usually very good in terms of where he wants to use it going downfield. He just needs to execute his kicks better, or look for a handball if he's in too tough a spot. So he's often 1 step ahead of where the team is. He usually has the right idea though. He's my tip out of the mids taken late who will forge a good career.

All true, but that's what late picks are for. You aren't giving up a lot for a guy who has shown some very good football. I do think his midfield ability is certainly there. Inconsistency can be fixed. I do think he'll probably go in the rookie draft though, which is why I put the "maybe" in front of him.

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

Maybe. I wouldn't be totally against getting him at 42 if it did happen, but there will be a few better options available, so we wont.


I actually think Holman's decision making is usually very good in terms of where he wants to use it going downfield. He just needs to execute his kicks better, or look for a handball if he's in too tough a spot. So he's often 1 step ahead of where the team is. He usually has the right idea though. He's my tip out of the mids taken late who will forge a good career.

All true, but that's what late picks are for. You aren't giving up a lot for a guy who has shown some very good football. I do think his midfield ability is certainly there. Inconsistency can be fixed. I do think he'll probably go in the rookie draft though, which is why I put the "maybe" in front of him.

He'd probably be on my list of potentials at 42 but I wouldn't really be happy if we took him. I imagine JK and Vandeleur will both be there at 42 (perhaps not JK but I don't completely buy all the hype; clubs simply don't spend high picks on tall defenders who aren't great one on one and will likely only take the third best forwards) and I'd take both ahead of Spencer.

I disagree; I think he has a horrible habit of selling either himself or teammates into trouble. Tries to take it on way too much and just ends up making dumb decisions or shanking a kick under pressure. I agree that his execution might be making his decision making look poorer than it actually is, but I don't agree it's good at all. Just does it far too often for me. However I do agree that he could forge a career; he's very good inside the contest and that alone gives him a good chance of making it.

He's not someone I'd use a main list spot with a normal salary on though; too much of a project imo and I'm not at all sold he'll make it. The problem I see is that his endurance is already reasonable (I don't have the state screening results but I imagine his beep wasn't too bad) yet he can't move into the midfield, which is always a bit of a warning sign, for me. He just doesn't play like one; doesn't win much ball, doesn't set play up, doesn't have any great attributes for a midfielder. He's incredibly dangerous around goal and that's where he plays his best footy - but whether he's good enough to make it as a small forward at AFL level, I'm not sure.

 

[scooter600x]

**** kids are soft these days, I'd live in Afghanistan if it gave me the chance to play AFL

Afghanistan sure, but not Adelaide ...

 

[GiantDog]

Does that rule out Brown too?

Brown is only 21 isn't he…Whereas Thorp is mid twenties i think from memory.

 

[lateniter]

Afghanistan sure, but not Adelaide ...

Yeah, but Ava Gardner said Melbourne was the perfect place to make a film about the end of the world...

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

Pick 60 - Western Bulldogs: Alex Spina​

Height: 181cm​

Weight: 74kg​

​

General Comments: Just when I thought Aish would be the skinniest kid I took in the draft...

Spina wasn't a player I was directly targeting, nor was he necessarily on my expanded 'wish list', but I did track him. I rate him in the 30-40 mark on talent, and once it got to my third pick he was just too highly rated to let him continue his slide. His champs looked decent on the stats sheet - averaging over 17 disposals, 3 marks and a goal - but I felt as though he was pretty inconsistent, both from match-to-match and within games. However, as with Aish, you can't disregard his SANFL form - where he's been quite good for a reasonable period of time. The champs have probably helped him slide, but there's undoubted talent there and I can see a lot to work with. It's also worth noting that he's suffered a few injuries.

The 'Dogs are likely to use this pick to upgrade Brett Goodes from the rookie list and then head to either the pre-season draft or the rookie draft - however if we do use it, Spina would be one that I'd love to see taken with it (provided he's there). I've seen enough to be seriously impressed, and was very happy to see him slide this far.

Strengths: The thing that stands out for me most with Spina are his skills. He's so dangerous with the ball in hand all around the ground, and it's something you won't get from a lot of prospects this far into the draft. His work through the midfield - while limited by his smallish tank - is outstanding, often identifying the best option under pressure and rarely selling himself or his teammates into trouble. He has a beautiful kick that hardly ever misses its mark regardless of the pressure he may be under and this should hold him in good stead at AFL level. He's not an incredibly powerful athlete, but he gets the best out of what he has. I wouldn't describe him as fast, per se, but he does have reasonable speed. He loves to sell candy - probably one of the biggest candy lovers in the draft - and is very, very good at it as quite an agile guy. Can stop himself quite quickly and get around much bigger and faster opponents when he gets going.
Up forward, his skills translate into goals. He's a very classy, dangerous forward who requires close checking or he'll get behind you and kick goals out of nowhere. Again, he's not overly fast but his ability to read the play faster and better than anyone else really allows him to get distance on his direct opponent, which is what makes him such a damaging player. He watches the play unfold from deep in defense and is rarely motionless, always making his opponent work for everything and keeping them on their toes. Once he builds that tank up his mobility is going to be really valuable in the forward line and ensure that it never looks stagnant.

The remarkable thing with Spina is that for such a dangerous offensive weapon, he's also more than capable of matching up on the opposition's dangerous smaller players in the back half of the ground, really giving him an extra dimension. His tackling pressure is quite good but what I've really been impressed with is his ability to keep those more dangerous guys in check, rarely letting them get away but also being able to take the game on himself and set up play. He's never going to be a natural lockdown small defender or a run-with player, but he's more than capable defensively, making him a potentially viable option off a half back flank.

For his size, Spina is quite strong through the body and really good overhead. At only 181cm, you're not going to use him as a marking option - but with a bit of muscle and strength added I wouldn't be surprised to see him out-compete a lot of the smaller guys in the air. Down at ground level he's also exceptional, rarely fumbling and keeping his feet in most cases where he needs to.
Overall, Spina's a very versatile, damaging footballer who makes his way into the AFL with great composure, excellent game sense and an elite kick making up for what is probably a lower base athletically for the sort of player he is.

What He Needs To Work On: I should really start putting the weaknesses section first, as I'm pretty sure I've just made him out to be Gary Ablett Jr. Indeed, regardless of his great strengths, there are a few weaknesses really holding him back from taking that next step. First of all, though, I should mention that he had some injuries late last year. Nothing super severe or ongoing as far as I know, however he did miss a bit of football and several AIS-AFL camps.

The biggest issue for me at the moment is his tank. It's by no means Patrick Veszpremi level low (ie. he won't get tired walking onto the ground from the change rooms) - in fact, it's not at all bad. The problem is that Spina's such a mobile little player. Without terrific athleticism, Spina is such a superb option as he effortlessly finds space by staying on his feet and in action at all times. It allows him to get separation from his man and lead into space, get to the ball with enough time to do something with it, and work himself into space and let him use that kick to the best of his abilities. This mobility is what makes him special, for me. At AFL level, however, two things will hold him back. Firstly, clubs will expect him to play more midfield time - and indeed, I'd be taking him to transition to - or at least spend time through - the midfield. With his average tank he's probably going to struggle to keep up that mobility forward of centre as well as spending time running through the wings. Secondly, defenders in the AFL have a much higher fitness base and will also be a bit more awake to his tactics, potentially cutting off more of his runs and making it difficult for him for him to out-work them. I don't see him as being incapable of building a tank - however, it's something that I feel will hold him back if he can't. He's a good forward, but that kick will be wasted to some degree as a permanent forward.

The second concern I have probably stems from his endurance base, however, he is quite inconsistent. He was named in SA's best players in most champs games and also featured in the goals on most occasions, however, he has a bit of a tendency to fade in and out and it's something I'd like to see him work on from multiple angles. Firstly - the obvious one: his tank, as addressed above. Secondly, I'd like to see him get a bit more involved in the contest and win more of his own ball. He's by no means an outside-only player but he's not exactly somebody you'd be confident in when fighting for the ball. Part of this is his strength but occasionally I find he runs away from the contest (not in any "he's afraid of the physical stuff" way; just thinking of the game ahead of where it's at, I suppose) and I think that being able to get the ball on his own terms will really help him with his consistency. A guy like Jack Steven or Tom Liberatore can get themselves into games by going in hard even if they're having a bad day, and while I don't expect Spina to ever get as good as them, of course, it's something I'd like to see him work on.

The above paragraph also touched on a few little tidbits in minor detail so I'll just brush over them now. First of all, he's only a little over 70kg and, like Aish, needs to build some strength and size. I don't expect it'll be too much of a problem, however, it's something to consider. I also find that often he thinks a little too far ahead. For example, he seems to just expect his side to win the ball out of contests a lot of times and sets up on the HFF before the ball's already been won. This isn't a huge issue playing as a forward but as a midfielder you really want him to make use of that defensive side of his game and not run forward quite so much. I'm probably being a little bit harsh here as, given how strong SA were inside the contest, he may have been instructed to do so, but regardless I feel as though he needs to spend more time "in the moment" than thinking one, two, three steps ahead. Of course his game sense is outstanding and I don't want to hide that, but occasionally I'd like to see him play it a bit safer.

He doesn't win a bunch of disposals but it's not a huge problem for him as, more often they're not, they're effective in either pushing his side forward, assisting in a goal or kicking one himself. Regardless, as a small forward, it'll be harder for him to get his 15-20 disposals at AFL level - especially if he gets to a point where he attracts a lockdown player.

Another area that he'll need to work on is his defensive pressure (ability to clamp down on an opposition player is good but his work once they get the ball is nothing to write home about).

How He Fits: Spina doesn't exactly fill a gaping hole in the Bulldogs' lineup - players like Hunter, Dahlhaus, Hrovat and Dickson are all (or will be) capable of playing somewhat of a dangerous small forward/midfielder role - but what he gives us is a slightly different player, a bit of variety, and some added depth. In the short term I see him potentially forming part of a really dynamic three-way rotation with Bob Murphy and Luke Dahlhaus, with Murph and Spina rotating between half back, the midfield and half forward, and Dahl moving through the midfield and the forward line. This sort of versatility is what really attracts me to the Spina pick - he can play as a bit of a small utility and play a role wherever we require him to. While he'll probably be a bit of a longer term player, when Murph will likely be gone, his ability to play around the ground will hold him in good stead regardless of who is on the field.


Draft review for the Dogs' three picks coming soon.

 

[timtamWB]

It's by no means Patrick Veszpremi level low (ie. he won't get tired walking onto the ground from the change rooms

 

[doggies ftw]

Great work Dannnnnnnnnn, would be absolutely rapt with Aish, Conlon and Spina, just about perfect

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

Bulldogs Summary
Pick 4 - James Aish
Pick 42 - Cameron Conlon
Pick 60 - Alex Spina

Wish List
No particular order, and just the types of players I was looking for, not necessarily all in this draft:

• Strong, marking tall forward.
• Small forward/midfielder with pace and skill.
• Outside midfielder with good pace and skill.
• Tall defender who can play tall or small.
• Running defender, again, with skill.
• Small lockdown defender.

Review

I went in directly targeting the types of players mentioned above. While they are quite broad categories and I wasn't restricting the draftable players to those that fitted into these categories, it worked out quite well in the end in my opinion. Pretty happy with how the draft turned out and, while I don't particularly rate the pool of U18s this year, I'm fairly confident in the players I selected.

First of all, a bit of background about my philosophy heading in. I see this as somewhat of a 'role' draft for the Western Bulldogs. We have some very capable young players, especially through the midfield, who really started to show some superb form in the last portion of the season. Guys like Campbell, Roughead, Talia, Libba, Dahlhaus, Wallis, Dickson etc started to show some really good form and give most supporters faith that we're headed in the right direction. We have a nice core of young guys and this year I feel like we're ready to take a bit more of a risk and take some high risk/high reward guys to fill some holes and really give us something to look forward to in the near future. It's not the time to take enormous risks with every pick, but calculated risks could have us really well placed in the future.

My first two picks typify this philosophy, with two pretty high risk guys. Aish offers everything the Bulldogs' midfield sorely lacks - pace, skill, and a midfielder who's decent overhead and in one on one contests - but is absolutely a risk. His uncontested:contested ratio is concerning any way you slice it, even though I think it's overstated. However, with the Dogs having so many options within the contest, Aish could really thrive as that outside guy. He's not going to get the tag for a while - and if he does, it leaves Griffen and/or Cooney free to do what they do best. His inside work is underestimated in my opinion and his work outside is truly superb. The biggest risk I took was with Conlon, who, admittedly, could become a massive flop. I simply don't rate the draft after about the 30-40 mark and, apart from a few here and there, I wouldn't be surprised if a huge majority end up failing at the highest level. This is why the risk with Conlon was more acceptable to me - if he comes good, I'm confident he'll solve our key forward woes, and if he doesn't he falls in a range where the failed picks will start becoming more and more prevalent. Spina I don't see as much of a risk at 60 and I think he'll offer something at AFL level, but of course, players taken that late are taken that late for a reason. We likely won't use that pick but Spina's a guy I wouldn't be disappointed to see taken there at all.

I'm not really happy to not fill the tall defender slot I wanted to in this draft (with Morris retiring in the next few years and Young and Wood both not really being the types to fill that role), but I simply didn't rate the ones available at my picks that highly and it wasn't a desperate need.

Overall I'd be pretty happy if that's how the draft pans out. A few guys who I had my eyes on - like Sicily, Vandeleur, Miller, Charlie Cameron and Jake Kolodjashnij - went a few picks before my latter two, but I'm quite content with the spread I got in the end.

 

[AjsGuns]

Really hope we get Billings (been on him for months now) or Aish. Will be very dissapointed if we don't end up with one of those two (assuming one is there at our pick). Would be happy with Bontempelli too but only if Aish/Billings arn't there. Billings remids me so much of a Jimmy Bartel (when forward) / Brad Johnson.

 

[Godogs247]

Dwayne Wilson, anyone?

Yesssssssssss

 

[_M_16_]

The rumors are always ever changing. Cannot remember who they were talking to on SEN yesterday morning around 10am. But according to that guest who covered the first five picks in depth and a couple of the other deeper teams. It is down to a choice between Aish and Scharenberg for us. No mention of KK or Billings this time around.

 

[fronkalicious]

It was this time last year that word came through on the stringer and macrae interest. Ears to the ground people.

 

[Aldo]

It was this time last year that word came through on the stringer and macrae interest. Ears to the ground people.

Time to put your bets down on who we are getting, before this information comes in. One pick only.

I'll go with Scharenberg.

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

Aish for me. Just can't see how we possibly pass.

 

[fronkalicious]

Time to put your bets down on who we are getting, before this information comes in. One pick only.

I'll go with Scharenberg.

Scharenberg for me too. I think billings is on top of our board but think he goes at 3 to the saints

 

[fronkalicious]

Time to put your bets down on who we are getting, before this information comes in. One pick only.

I'll go with Scharenberg.

Scharenberg for me too. I think billings is on top of our board but think he goes at 3 to the saints

 

[Zgope1]

i'll go with Scharenburg because i want us to get Aish

 

[_M_16_]

I'd prefer Aish, but have a feeling we will swing towards Scharenberg. Our defense is far from settled, as we still need a solid shut down defender who can play small and tall when Morris. As well as a Murphy type to rebound out of Defense. Not sure how Scharenberg goes with shutting down players, and he probably isn't as agile as Murphy. But I think he will be used in a bit of a free roaming role like Lake was when he wasn't lining up on someone directly. Using his ability to read the ball well, take intercept marks, then get that deep kick downfield.

 

[footyfan000001]

I'd be dirty if we took Sharenberg over Aish. Need to add some polish into our midfield!

 

[Kelvin31]

The rumors are always ever changing. Cannot remember who they were talking to on SEN yesterday morning around 10am. But according to that guest who covered the first five picks in depth and a couple of the other deeper teams. It is down to a choice between Aish and Scharenberg for us. No mention of KK or Billings this time around.

That was Jay Clark from the HSun. ATM he has no more idea/mail than Callum or Brett or Ben.

.

 

[Kelvin31]

It was this time last year that word came through on the stringer and macrae interest. Ears to the ground people.

I'll be speaking to a current employee of our football department on Friday. He is usually pretty tight lipped but I'll try and get two final names out of him.

.

 

[_M_16_]

That was Jay Clark from the HSun. ATM he has no more idea/mail than Callum or Brett or Ben.
.

There we go then

 

[Chris Grant]

That was Jay Clark from the HSun. ATM he has no more idea/mail than Callum or Brett or Ben.

Probably because McCartney and our recruiters went to Adelaide, so the journo's just put to and two together and said Aish and Scharenberg are the favourites.

 

[timtamWB]

It'll be Aish. How can we pass on him? I get the whole Scharenberg hype, but honestly Aish is literally perfect for us.