List Mgmt. 2013 DRAFT

[Dramoth]

G. Ablett pick #40 (F/S) - might have gone top 10 but we will never know because of the F/S selection
J. Selwood pick #6 overall 2006 - first rounder who impacted straight away.
S. Black pick #31 - definitely not a top 10 player from his draft.
C. Judd pick #3 2001 - definitely a winner there.
B. Cousins - 1995 F/S selection (before they changed the rules so that other clubs could bid on the players)
A. Goodes - pick #42 - whoa... not a first rounder
N. Riewoldt - pick #1 (Priority pick) - hmmm tricky... who knows where he would have gone if the Saints hadnt picked him up with a priority pick and I reckon that he might not have gone first round if that was the case.

 

[ItsAllAboutMe]

Ok then... I'll give you the stats for your list of players in their first season

C. Judd 22 games for the West Coast
G. Ablett jr 12 games for Geelong - just made it into the 10+ games
B. Cousins 20 games for the West Coast
S. Black 9 games for Brisbane - missed on that one
J. Selwood 21 games for Geelong
A. Goodes 20 games for Sydney
N. Riewoldt 6 games for St Kilda - missed here as well

However... lets have a look at M. Murphy of Carlton
first season - 13 games... that puts him on a par with both Ablett and Black.

And how about that Gibbs guy... has played at least 21 games in every season...

You can cherry pick players all you like. Once in a generation players are just that. They come in and are awesome from the get go just because they are that good.

You are the one that brought comparing first years of champions to the table, I simply made it relevant to today's conditions and although missing on Black by one game and Riewolt (although I don't think the theory holds weight for KPPs) I think my point was proven.

 

[Sublime]

You are the one that brought comparing first years of champions to the table, I simply made it relevant to today's conditions and although missing on Black by one game and Riewolt (although I don't think the theory holds weight for KPPs) I think my point was proven.

Goodes, a dual brownlow medallist didn't even play a game in his first season.

Every theory has big holes as each player is different.

 

[Aphrodite]

PLAY NICE THANKS FOLKS!


Keep the personal attacks out of your posts.

 

[Dramoth]

You are the one that brought comparing first years of champions to the table, I simply made it relevant to today's conditions and although missing on Black by one game and Riewolt (although I don't think the theory holds weight for KPPs) I think my point was proven.

I think that you are fooling yourself really if you think that your point is proven. You are the one who is wanting our first round pick to come out and play 15+ games this year. And then you trot out a bunch of names who are once in a generation type players. AND the majority of them were not even taken first round.

What I am saying is that most bodies take time to mature properly before they are really ready to compete against men. Way back when before people like yourself started pushing for the club to recruit ready to go players, we used to recruit mature players from other leagues. Guys who had been in the system for 2-4 years or had come through the old U19s and reserves system.

But no... people like you want to throw guys who are 18 years old up against guys who are at the peak of their physical prowess and strength in a full contact sport. Is it any wonder why guys like Luke Livingston or Bower or Russell get castigated by idiots in their first couple of seasons because they dont come out and dominate. Is it any wonder why guys who get battered in their first couple of seasons go on to be labelled duds by those idiots who castigated them because they didnt come out and do a Judd or a Selwood and dominate in their first seasons?

And is it any wonder why those players usually have short careers?

Including the years Sticks spent playing in the SANFL... how many years total did Sticks play for?

The average playing career used to be 10 years. Now thanks to idiots pushing for clubs to play 18 year old kids against men, the average career is about 7-8 years long.

If people keep pushing the kids out there, the average career is going to be 5 years before too much longer.

 

[Bradschi]

I have said this before and I'll say it again, people with unrealistic expectations need to wake up and realise making it at the top level from the very beginning is not as easy as it comes for some.
Same can be said for your own respective fields, you learn your ropes, some people click straight away and some others take some time, doesn't mean they're no good.

 

[Dramoth]

I have said this before and I'll say it again, people with unrealistic expectations need to wake up and realise making it at the top level from the very beginning is not as easy as it comes for some.
Same can be said for your own respective fields, you learn your ropes, some people click straight away and some others take some time, doesn't mean they're no good.

Thats it really... it has taken me a long time to get to the top of my field... not because I am not talented and I had to work harder, but because even with talent it takes a long time to get the experience needed to make it to the top!

 

[ItsAllAboutMe]

Firstly how are they once in a generation players, when there are 7 of them who played in the one decade??

I was not saying play our pick before he is ready, my point was that I want/hope that the person we draft turns out to be one of these A grade players and I think it's reasonably clear that most AGrade players come into the AFL system and thrive from the start. None of those players were gifted games, they earned them and produce when given the chance showing they were capable AFL players worthy of a regular spot in there clubs best 22 despite being 18. I for one hope that this is the same for #13 who ever he ends up being.

 

[Dramoth]

Who was the last player in any side who came in and really impacted the game? who stood up and said 'hey look at how good I am'?

And I am not talking about just being one season wonders like Gysberts, Rich and Darling.

I am talking about guys who came in and were exactly the same year after year?

And for your information, Heppell has played 23, 20, 19 over the last 3 years.

Judd played at least 22 games in his first 3 seasons and Selwood played 21,24,25 in his first 3 seasons.

And as for Vlastiun... he is a first year player... people didnt know what he was actually like playing against adults. I am willing to bet that he wont be that good next year as people work him out.

 

[THE_GUN]

Who was the last player in any side who came in and really impacted the game? who stood up and said 'hey look at how good I am'?

And I am not talking about just being one season wonders like Gysberts, Rich and Darling.

I am talking about guys who came in and were exactly the same year after year?

And for your information, Heppell has played 23, 20, 19 over the last 3 years.

Judd played at least 22 games in his first 3 seasons and Selwood played 21,24,25 in his first 3 seasons.

And as for Vlastiun... he is a first year player... people didnt know what he was actually like playing against adults. I am willing to bet that he wont be that good next year as people work him out.

I think Tigger might suprise a few next year, This kid has unbelievable determination to succeed as a professional footballer and will leave no stone unturned, He and Brandon Ellis have been training full on since the season ended and with a proper pre season and bigger tank he will really cement his place in the team
Nick is an extremely good inside midfielder that wasnt played in tha position in his 1st year and is itching to get in there.

 

[ItsAllAboutMe]

Who was the last player in any side who came in and really impacted the game? who stood up and said 'hey look at how good I am'?

And I am not talking about just being one season wonders like Gysberts, Rich and Darling.

I am talking about guys who came in and were exactly the same year after year?

And for your information, Heppell has played 23, 20, 19 over the last 3 years.

Judd played at least 22 games in his first 3 seasons and Selwood played 21,24,25 in his first 3 seasons.

And as for Vlastiun... he is a first year player... people didnt know what he was actually like playing against adults. I am willing to bet that he wont be that good next year as people work him out.

Jeremy Cameron is the obvious choice, Barlow but of course he was mature aged, Heppell has finished top 5 in the cheats bnf every season since starting, Hannebury had a great first season plateaued in his 2nd and was a gun in his 3rd season. I can't see O'meara, Wines Tom Mitchell or Brad a Crouch not taking there games to the next level, so plenty of examples out there.

 

[Dramoth]

I think Tigger might suprise a few next year, This kid has unbelievable determination to succeed as a professional footballer and will leave no stone unturned, He and Brandon Ellis have been training full on since the season ended and with a proper pre season and bigger tank he will really cement his place in the team
Nick is an extremely good inside midfielder that wasnt played in tha position in his 1st year and is itching to get in there.

If he comes out and steps up again, I will retract my statement... but for the time being, he is a first year player that was an unknown quantity last year at senior level... similar to how Rich and Heppell were in their first seasons... since then, they have both gone backwards in terms of output and games played per season.

I have never been a massive fan of rushing guys into the seniors as soon as they are recruited. We have had to do so over a number of years mainly because our side lacked some serious quality in the established players. I would prefer to see the kids play 40-50 game at VFL level before they are slotted into the side as regular senior level players. They can play 6-10 games a season if they need that bit of extra exposure... but I dont care if they start this year or in 4 years time...

 

[THE_GUN]

If he comes out and steps up again, I will retract my statement... but for the time being, he is a first year player that was an unknown quantity last year at senior level... similar to how Rich and Heppell were in their first seasons... since then, they have both gone backwards in terms of output and games played per season.

I have never been a massive fan of rushing guys into the seniors as soon as they are recruited. We have had to do so over a number of years mainly because our side lacked some serious quality in the established players. I would prefer to see the kids play 40-50 game at VFL level before they are slotted into the side as regular senior level players. They can play 6-10 games a season if they need that bit of extra exposure... but I dont care if they start this year or in 4 years time...

I would disagree with this part, Both Rich & Heppell were just as good in their 2nd seasons as their 1st season and havnt really dropped off a great deal since then either - Both still very very good players and played similar amount of games (over 20) in their 2nd seasons.

Trent Cotchin ,Dustin Martin ,Brandon Ellis & Reece Conca All were played through out their 1st year and were all BETTER in their 2nd years of AFL Football

 

[Dramoth]

Jeremy Cameron is the obvious choice, Barlow but of course he was mature aged, Heppell has finished top 5 in the cheats bnf every season since starting, Hannebury had a great first season plateaued in his 2nd and was a gun in his 3rd season. I can't see O'meara, Wines, Tom Mitchell or Brad Crouch not taking there games to the next level, so plenty of examples out there.

Jaeger O'Meara - 1 season 22 games for an expansion club and didnt actually go through the proper draft... doesnt count
Jeremy Cameron - drafted by an expansion club in a compromised draft... everyone knew he was going to go ok... doesnt really count
Ollie Wines - 24 games in 1 season... might go ok... but an unknown quantity in his first ever season. Might end up going on to great things... but you never know.
Tom Mitchell - 14 games in his first season... who knows where he is going to end up.
Brad Crouch - 1 season 14 games...

Dan Hannebury - seasons of 7, 21 and 24 games in his first 3 seasons playing for Sydney. This is Sydney... the club that Fat Vlad bends over forwards for.

You keep trotting out names of guys who were selected by expansion clubs in compromised drafts and saying that 'ohh these guys will be stars'. Come back at the end of their careers and lets see how they actually went.

How about Josh Toy? 13 games in his first season... was touted as the second coming in his draft. Remind me who he plays for now?

Josh Caddy... another one who has been touted as being a future star... he has played 42 games in 3 seasons averaging 8.43 kicks, 3.33 marks and 6.52 handballs. Doesnt seem to be setting the world on fire now does he?

Back in the early 2000's, we got a tall KPP to the club. First season proper for us... played 17 games in 2002 as a young KPD... not a bad start really... especially as we recruited him to be a forward. He then went on to do absolutely bugger all for us and ended up being labelled a dud and a spud and a waste of pick 4. He then went down to the lower leagues after we delisted him and he used to kick bags for fun.

I am not saying that all those guys wont come on like gangbusters and will be Judd or Ablett like as they get older... but there is also the chance that they will fold under the weight of expectations and become a dud like Luke Livingston did.

 

[Dramoth]

I would disagree with this part, Both Rich & Heppell were just as good in their 2nd seasons as their 1st season and havnt really dropped off a great deal since then either - Both still very very good players and played similar amount of games (over 20) in their 2nd seasons.

Trent Cotchin ,Dustin Martin ,Brandon Ellis & Reece Conca All were played through out their 1st year and were all BETTER in their 2nd years of AFL Football

ok... you have just made the perfect example of not overplaying the kids...

Trent Cotchin played 15, 10 and 17 games in his first 3 seasons... since then he has played in 22 games each season. He was seasoned over a couple of years before stepping up to the higher level. His second season was queered by injuries which restricted him to 10 games.

Dustin Martin has been dropped into it from the start playing 21, 22, 20 in his first 3 seasons. He plays at a high level but can disappear in matches. He also has off field issues that could be caused by the weight of expectations.

Ellis has played 42 games over 2 seasons. He seems to be progressing nicely.

And Conca has played 17, 18, 17 over his 3 seasons.

But... considering where your club was 3-4 seasons ago... was it any wonder that you have been tossing games into the youngsters. You havent really had a lot of depth in quality mids since the tanned one left you guys.

 

[THE_GUN]

ok... you have just made the perfect example of not overplaying the kids...

Trent Cotchin played 15, 10 and 17 games in his first 3 seasons... since then he has played in 22 games each season. He was seasoned over a couple of years before stepping up to the higher level. His second season was queered by injuries which restricted him to 10 games.

Dustin Martin has been dropped into it from the start playing 21, 22, 20 in his first 3 seasons. He plays at a high level but can disappear in matches. He also has off field issues that could be caused by the weight of expectations.

Ellis has played 42 games over 2 seasons. He seems to be progressing nicely.

And Conca has played 17, 18, 17 over his 3 seasons.

But... considering where your club was 3-4 seasons ago... was it any wonder that you have been tossing games into the youngsters. You havent really had a lot of depth in quality mids since the tanned one left you guys.

Trent Cotchin hasnt didnt play the full quota of games in his first 3 years due to achilles injuries otherwise he would of been played all 22 games, He certainly wasnt seasoned into it - just injured

Dustin Martins off field issu'es have not effected any of his games, In all his years at the club his tank has improved with each pre season but certainly didnt go backwards at all - has improved his output every year

Ellis & Conca were as agreed better in their following years and hasnt done any harm playing all games

Correct with where our club was at when Terry Tan left we needed a rebuild due to the types he brought to the club and had to play the Kids but That still doesnt support your argument that Recruits cant play full seasons in their 1st year or will be less productive in their following years

Richmonds last 6 recruits have proven that they can play in their 1st years Riewoldt,Cotchin,Vickery,Martin,Conca,Ellis with only Jacy & Tyrone playing 8/9 games in their 1st years respectively (due to being KPF) and going on to have better years the following year

I believe that this wouldn't apply to all players but depending on the types of players and their physical size and development

You mentioned in a previous post about the players of past years but we also had kids like Watson playing when they were 15 without going through reserves football against 'HARD'Men in the Day

 

[Matty411]

One of Salem or Taylor please CFC (unless one of KK, Lennon or Sheed somehow drop to #13). Need an all round footballer with good skills, hunger for the contest and A-Grade potential - both of which these guys have.

I reckon we then go with the Geelong/Collingwood mold of playing them as that 2nd small forward (ala G. Ablett in first 3 years) until our eldermen retire. Love the look of Taylor and will almost certainly be around at our pick. Have a feeling the Tiges will pick Salem or the slider from top 10 (have done okay with their first rounders in last few years) so Taylor would be the perfect fit and fits the 'best available' tag.

On Taylor - The kid is only 173cm but size isn't everything - it won't stop him making an impact at AFL level. Plus, he's still young and if played in the FP - it gives him a few years to grow to his full height (possibly up to ~175-177cm) and could be our Sam-Mitchellesq midfield general and future captain.

By all accounts, he's the ultimate package - speed, vision, elite skills and knows how to find the footy. Good tackler, too. Perfect mix of inside/outside so is exactly the type of mid we should be targeting.

http://www.scpaige.com.au/draftees-in-focus-lewis-taylor/

AFL National Draft 2013. Carlton selects Geelong Falcons' co-captain Lewis Taylor with Selection #13.

Don't mind the sound of that.

 

[Bradschi]

Correct with where our club was at when Terry Tan left we needed a rebuild due to the types he brought to the club and had to play the Kids but That still doesnt support your argument that Recruits cant play full seasons in their 1st year or will be less productive in their following years

Richmonds last 6 recruits have proven that they can play in their 1st years Riewoldt,Cotchin,Vickery,Martin,Conca,Ellis with only Jacy & Tyrone playing 8/9 games in their 1st years respectively (due to being KPF) and going on to have better years the following year

I believe that this wouldn't apply to all players but depending on the types of players and their physical size and development

You mentioned in a previous post about the players of past years but we also had kids like Watson playing when they were 15 without going through reserves football against 'HARD'Men in the Day

I don't think he's arguing about recruits can't play first year, but the whole argument that started was because some of our supporters have unrealistic expectation expecting our first round draft pick to automatically walk into the team and play more than half the season. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. But these people are making this idea of drafting kids that play straight away and perform to high standards the be all and end all

 

[ianh]

One of Salem or Taylor please CFC (unless one of KK, Lennon or Sheed somehow drop to #13). Need an all round footballer with good skills, hunger for the contest and A-Grade potential - both of which these guys have.

I reckon we then go with the Geelong/Collingwood mold of playing them as that 2nd small forward (ala G. Ablett in first 3 years) until our eldermen retire. Love the look of Taylor and will almost certainly be around at our pick. Have a feeling the Tiges will pick Salem or the slider from top 10 (have done okay with their first rounders in last few years) so Taylor would be the perfect fit and fits the 'best available' tag.

On Taylor - The kid is only 173cm but size isn't everything - it won't stop him making an impact at AFL level. Plus, he's still young and if played in the FP - it gives him a few years to grow to his full height (possibly up to ~175-177cm) and could be our Sam-Mitchellesq midfield general and future captain.

By all accounts, he's the ultimate package - speed, vision, elite skills and knows how to find the footy. Good tackler, too. Perfect mix of inside/outside so is exactly the type of mid we should be targeting.

http://www.scpaige.com.au/draftees-in-focus-lewis-taylor/

AFL National Draft 2013. Carlton selects Geelong Falcons' co-captain Lewis Taylor with Selection #13.

Don't mind the sound of that.

The only issue i have with Taylor is his size in so far as it is a fit for our needs. We tend to have smaller mids already and probably a bigger bodied mid like Salem is a better fit. It all depends on who drops to us of course, but I think you will see the club look for a bit more size in an outside mid for the first round, and I can understand with our current stocks why that would be.

 

[mediumsizered]

As I've already stated & Dramoth is also alluding to, except for the out & out champions, the number of games played by drafted kids in their first couple of seasons (not mature age draftees) tends to reflect where their team is situated on the ladder.

Kids drafted to teams in the bottom half of the ladder will most likely play more games than kids drafted to teams in the top half of the ladder. This reflects two things:
1. Kids drafted with very early draft picks are no doubt at a different level to most kids drafted with not so early draft picks;
2. Teams who are in the bottom half of the ladder have holes in their lists allowing the kids to get games earlier than they would at a better team & these teams also feel an obligation to show the early draft picks off to supporters to give some glimmer of hope to the supporters & hopefully boost memberships.

 

[Silvagnis]

We need to be professional and pick the player with the best name. Kade Kolodjashnij simply has to slide.

Don't know where KK would fit in if he's a half back/wingman.

 

[ferrisb]

Anyone of those top 3 id be rapt with!
Personally im crossing everything i have that Tsitas is there at 39. or to a lesser Nick Roberston.

Have seen you run with this wishlist a few times now. Clearly you are a Tsitas man, No1

 

[Silvagnis]

16 days to the draft: Meet Zach Merrett

39 or bust.

 

[ferrisb]

And people are complaining about Casboult... who kicked 41.14 in his final TAC year

Must have been handcuffed to the goal umpire.

Or perhaps was wearing one of those ankle bracelets that doesn't let him out of the goalsquare?

 

[smashbox gill]

Must have been handcuffed to the goal umpire.

Or perhaps was wearing one of those ankle bracelets that doesn't let him out of the goalsquare?

Even then i wouldnt be so sure