List Mgmt. 2014 Draft Discussion

[Testekill]

His professionalism paints him as a good prospect.

 

[Gmod23]

Do you guys see keitel as a key forward, key back or 3rd defender type??

Will probably be a KPD, has work rate to be a forward but lacks that x-factor key attribute to be a dominant forward.
Hope if we get him, we build him towards a quality defender.... But with other prospects we have recruited the club would initially develop him as a forward due to a lack of KPF.

 

[Hrovat24]

Do you guys see keitel as a key forward, key back or 3rd defender type??

Key back or even a 3rd defender type , I seen him play on McCartin I think it was and he read the play well and also got around 20 - 25 touches

 

[TBOW]

Just reacquainted myself with Tyler Keitel's highlights. He's Enright like - good thinker, tough enough and disposes of it well. I like him as a future CHB.

Going off nothing but a few highlights & write ups Keitel > Oscar McDonald.

In a very vague way Keitel strikes me as a better Fletcher Roberts & McDonald as a worse Michael Talia.

 

[scooter600x]

I've only seen Keitel in the two championship games so that makes me perfectly qualified to comment.

One piece of play at Geelong had Keitel win the ball, give it off and get it back, recovering a poor handball to him while he evaded a tackler. It was a really impressive piece of ball handling and evasion that any midfielder would have been happy with. His movement and skills at his size look top notch (dare I say Chris Grant like?) and he can mark; is he big enough and aggressive enough though?

I really like him as a player but I'm not really sure what I'd do with him after I got him.

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

My biggest issue with Keitel is that he doesn't really excel at anything. Decent movement, decent mark, decent stopper, decent kick, decent defensively, etc. How many key position players at AFL level have nothing extraordinary about them at all?

McDonald is limited and he's likely not going to become an All-Australian calibre centre-half back but he's a very, very reliable stopper that can perform admirably on a variety of opponents.

 

[TBOW]

My biggest issue with Keitel is that he doesn't really excel at anything. Decent movement, decent mark, decent stopper, decent kick, decent defensively, etc. How many key position players at AFL level have nothing extraordinary about them at all?.

One just got a stack of coin as a free agent.

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

One just got a stack of coin as a free agent.

He's had a couple of bad years since his AA year under the ridiculous pressure that the Dees' back line is forced to deal with, but I don't agree that he doesn't excel at anything. At his best he's a brilliant stopper that can play on a range of opponents and an excellent mark. To my eye, Keitel offers a reasonable defensive presence and a reasonable rebounding presence. I just don't see it.

 

[TBOW]

McDonald is limited and he's likely not going to become an All-Australian calibre centre-half back but he's a very, very reliable stopper that can perform admirably on a variety of opponents.

Yeah, I guess I just depends how he stacks up against AFL standard players. Did he test fairly similarly to his brother? I guess that might give clubs a pretty good idea?

 

[TBOW]

He's had a couple of bad years since his AA year under the ridiculous pressure that the Dees' back line is forced to deal with, but I don't agree that he doesn't excel at anything. At his best he's a brilliant stopper that can play on a range of opponents and an excellent mark. To my eye, Keitel offers a reasonable defensive presence and a reasonable rebounding presence. I just don't see it.

Yeah that was just a cheap shot.

To me Keitel looks agile enough to be a good stopper with excellent recovery.

I guess I'm going off perceived potential where you are going off exposed form. It will be interesting to see how the two kids go.

 

[Mutt]

My biggest issue with Keitel is that he doesn't really excel at anything. Decent movement, decent mark, decent stopper, decent kick, decent defensively, etc. How many key position players at AFL level have nothing extraordinary about them at all?

McDonald is limited and he's likely not going to become an All-Australian calibre centre-half back but he's a very, very reliable stopper that can perform admirably on a variety of opponents.

Few if any of the kids selected in the late 20's or 30's or 40's in this draft are likely to be A-graders with any elite attributes. Chances are that none of the players selected after #25 are ever going to be All Australian standard.

Good quality, AFL standard key position defenders can be pretty good at most things but not absolutely elite at anything. I'd argue that Frawley is not elite at anything and a good many defenders in Premiership contending sides at the moment are similar.

 

[GreatSouthWest]

My biggest issue with Keitel is that he doesn't really excel at anything. Decent movement, decent mark, decent stopper, decent kick, decent defensively, etc. How many key position players at AFL level have nothing extraordinary about them at all?

McDonald is limited and he's likely not going to become an All-Australian calibre centre-half back but he's a very, very reliable stopper that can perform admirably on a variety of opponents.

How many players after the first round excel at anything in their pre-draft years? That's why they go later in the draft.

 

[Hrovat24]

My biggest issue with Keitel is that he doesn't really excel at anything. Decent movement, decent mark, decent stopper, decent kick, decent defensively, etc. How many key position players at AFL level have nothing extraordinary about them at all?

McDonald is limited and he's likely not going to become an All-Australian calibre centre-half back but he's a very, very reliable stopper that can perform admirably on a variety of opponents.

Would you be able to name all the key positions brilliant capabilities ? Not being a smart ass either just very interested

 

[King Harold]

My biggest issue with Keitel is that he doesn't really excel at anything. Decent movement, decent mark, decent stopper, decent kick, decent defensively, etc. How many key position players at AFL level have nothing extraordinary about them at all?

McDonald is limited and he's likely not going to become an All-Australian calibre centre-half back but he's a very, very reliable stopper that can perform admirably on a variety of opponents.

Think we can say that about Morris ? but he a very very good AFL footballer & All Australian.

 

[Hrovat24]

My biggest issue with Keitel is that he doesn't really excel at anything. Decent movement, decent mark, decent stopper, decent kick, decent defensively, etc. How many key position players at AFL level have nothing extraordinary about them at all?

McDonald is limited and he's likely not going to become an All-Australian calibre centre-half back but he's a very, very reliable stopper that can perform admirably on a variety of opponents.

Ryan shoenmakers nathan brown brother mitch aaron black chris Dawes Liam jones

 

[Super Hans]

Ryan shoenmakers nathan brown brother mitch aaron black chris Dawes Liam jones

What a star studded list.

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

Yeah, I guess I just depends how he stacks up against AFL standard players. Did he test fairly similarly to his brother? I guess that might give clubs a pretty good idea?

I'm not sure how he tested.

Few if any of the kids selected in the late 20's or 30's or 40's in this draft are likely to be A-graders with any elite attributes. Chances are that none of the players selected after #25 are ever going to be All Australian standard.

Good quality, AFL standard key position defenders can be pretty good at most things but not absolutely elite at anything. I'd argue that Frawley is not elite at anything and a good many defenders in Premiership contending sides at the moment are similar.

How many players after the first round excel at anything in their pre-draft years? That's why they go later in the draft.

I can see what you're getting at but I don't completely agree. I'm not saying that a guy in the 20s, or 30s, or 40s needs to have an elite characteristic - few of them do. But in my opinion they need something that deviates them from the average, everyday AFL player (which I'd argue is somewhere around the level of a Dylan Addison type - not an instant delisting but not a best 22 player for an ok side). Some examples of some of the good characteristics of the 30-50ish types from this draft off the top of my head:
Peter Bampton - brilliant ball-winner with good burst speed.
Clem Smith - speedy, uncanny ability to read the game.
Alex Neal-Bullen - superb hands under pressure, excellent ball-winner, elite endurance.
Corey Ellis - skilled by foot, evasive.
Oscar McDonald - proven excellent stopper, fantastic 1v1.
Then, for me, you have Keitel, who has reasonable athleticism for a big man, reasonable overhead ability, reasonable ability at ground level, decent footy smarts and a good work rate. He's a reasonable stopper at junior level; a reasonable rebounder at junior level; a reasonable forward target at AFL level. The way the game's going he's also slightly undersized (to put it in perspective, Caleb Marchbank is around the same height and the Saints' recruiters are on record as thinking he's too small to play as a genuine KPP into the future). There's just not a lot that inspires me with Keitel and he's, for me, one that has only an outside chance of making it. That doesn't mean he won't - my opinion isn't worth much - but I just struggle to see where he fits at AFL level aside from ok 35-39 depth on a list. To me it's easier to look at a player with nice strengths in their game and iron out the weaknesses than it is to find something in these guys with stacks of average qualities.

Would you be able to name all the key positions brilliant capabilities ? Not being a smart ass either just very interested

What do you mean by that?

Think we can say that about Morris ? but he a very very good AFL footballer & All Australian.

I would argue that Morris' ability to handle players of all sizes is elite; we've had him playing on genuine full-forwards, classic centre-half forwards, dangerous smalls and everything in between. His smarts and ability in one-on-one contests also deviate him from the norm considerably in my opinion.

Ryan shoenmakers nathan brown brother mitch aaron black chris Dawes Liam jones

I think you've helped to prove my point to be honest. Schoenmakers is struggling to find a good matchup at AFL level because of his only reasonable athleticism and only reasonable strength, along with his only reasonable ability as a forward. Mitch Brown is lucky to be on an AFL list and probably won't be this time next year. Aaron Black is an interesting one; his individual characteristics are far from elite but as a package he's got some attributes that make him a difficult matchup - but at this stage of his career it's impossible to suggest that he will or will not make it. Played well last year but struggled big time this year as a result of injuries and opposition defenders starting to get a feel for him and keeping him out of the play. I'll concede that he could be an exception to my blanket statement but it's too early to tell definitively. Chris Dawes is the closest thing to an exception that you've listed. Liam Jones has an elite leap and very strong hands - but even if he lacked any sort of elite characteristics he's still far from a good player. He wasn't even a role player for the 15th placed side this year.

 

[Dav1d]

I think you've helped to prove my point to be honest. Schoenmakers is struggling to find a good matchup at AFL level because of his only reasonable athleticism and only reasonable strength, along with his only reasonable ability as a forward. Mitch Brown is lucky to be on an AFL list and probably won't be this time next year. Aaron Black is an interesting one; his individual characteristics are far from elite but as a package he's got some attributes that make him a difficult matchup - but at this stage of his career it's impossible to suggest that he will or will not make it. Played well last year but struggled big time this year as a result of injuries and opposition defenders starting to get a feel for him and keeping him out of the play. I'll concede that he could be an exception to my blanket statement but it's too early to tell definitively. Chris Dawes is the closest thing to an exception that you've listed. Liam Jones has an elite leap and very strong hands - but even if he lacked any sort of elite characteristics he's still far from a good player. He wasn't even a role player for the 15th placed side this year.

Where do you happen to rate Sean McLaren at this stage?



the closest players to a sure thing at AFL level are players with a strong contested game

Plough done a percentage earlier in the year of players most likely to succeed at AFL level
and KPPs were last & inside midfielders were way ahead at first
I think possibly over 50%

so if our recruiters decide to take a Neal-Bullen or Gore at one of our earliest picks, I won't be groaning any going
another inside midfielder

 

[yebiga]

Good key position defenders keep their feet, are strong and good closing speed.

 

[GreatSouthWest]

I don't disagree with your current assessment of Keitel, Dan, but the sum of a players' current output, characteristics and abilities don't necessarily add to the whole in the future as I'm sure you'd agree. I think he has considerable upside. What draft range do you think is fair for him? I believe anywhere between 35 and 50. Considering we have 3 picks in that range i wouldn't be unhappy taking him with any of them.

 

[Super Hans]

I'm just gonna pray Blakely gets to our pick, if we can get him and Menadue with our first two picks I'll be stoked.

 

[King Harold]

Think we can say that about Morris ? but he a very very good AFL footballer & All Australian.
Click to expand...
I would argue that Morris' ability to handle players of all sizes is elite; we've had him playing on genuine full-forwards, classic centre-half forwards, dangerous smalls and everything in between. His smarts and ability in one-on-one contests also deviate him from the norm considerably in my opinion.

Dannnnnnnn the point I was making was Morris took a fair while to show all of those elite traits you mention.
When I first saw him play , no one could have predicted the career he has had.
I am his biggest fan , has been an out and out gun and I just love the guy as all of us do.

 

[JTCWBFC]

Do those in the know reckon DVR will be available at 46? His left foot looks lethal and he has enough pace to get the time and space to use it.

 

[black pup]

Think we can say that about Morris ? but he a very very good AFL footballer & All Australian.
Click to expand...
I would argue that Morris' ability to handle players of all sizes is elite; we've had him playing on genuine full-forwards, classic centre-half forwards, dangerous smalls and everything in between. His smarts and ability in one-on-one contests also deviate him from the norm considerably in my opinion.

Dannnnnnnn the point I was making was Morris took a fair while to show all of those elite traits you mention.
When I first saw him play , no one could have predicted the career he has had.
I am his biggest fan , has been an out and out gun and I just love the guy as all of us do.

I cannot agree with those comments KING. He killed that little champion from Adelaide in is first game, who's name I have completely forgotten.
From that day until how has been a champion of our club and the game.

 

[JTCWBFC]

Not sure of the state of their rookie list but anyone think that GWS might take Foster just to piss us off?