List Mgmt. 2014 Draft Discussion

[goodcop badcop]

On the (shudder) nor-f board they reckon the kangas have been lying about boomers height for ages:
http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/boomers-height.992412/

And he is currently listed on their site at 167cm - same as Daniel.

Course Boomer is quicker but he is also 10 kilos heavier - Daniel has the endurance, he needs to hit the weights room for power - he may be able to get some more burst.

Not sure I like the Harvey comparison anyway to be honest. He doesn't have the X-factor of Harvey and is not as quick as you mentioned. It just seems to be the way of it that nearly every small midfielder gets compared to Boomer, I'm pretty sure Hrovat did too.

As TBOW said, I don't think we can carry two of Hrovat and Daniel.

He has all the hype and if he had the height would be what ? Top 15 ?

Rather pick a midget with ball magnet ability at around 46 rather than a few we have taken at that mark, Fuller, Pearce, Tutt

I'm trying to look into the crystal ball a bit more here, so the bolded to me this is questionable. On exposed form he does have this ability, but will he be able to do that at the next level against much bigger bodies? At his size he's going to get pushed around a lot and will struggle to get much inside ball. It's been mentioned to me he really struggled to tackle anyone in the SANFL as well. I don't see the upside in him compared to many others either.

I'm calling he will be available by the rookie draft.

 

[Dogsman16]

To make it at his height he will need to be in the top 5% for talent, determination, work ethic, courage, smarts & effectiveness in the AFL- not just his draft class.
If we believe he can be all of those things then I really hope we take him. To me he seems great but maybe just not great enough.

He's top 5 for talent, he was in the top 5 for beep test so his work ethic and determination are all ready there. His disposal effeciency was 90% in the state champs so he obviously has the smarts and effectiveness. And in anycase even if he grew to say 173cm I believe that anybody under 175cm will on occasions get found out in marking contests such as Hrovat/Taylor get found out in any case. Should we take a risk and pull the trigger at 46 if available, then absolutely we must. 26 or 27 is too great a stretch though but a pick in the 40's should be a great addition. Kid has unbelievable vision.

 

[total football]

Lets get this guy:

REASONING: You cant have too many short people or outside players in your team, and at his height and weight, this guy is going to be pure outside at AFL level. But he is 5cm shorter than Brent Harvey.

BUT - Too many short people and outside players isnt a problem we currently have - quite the opposite: we are crying out for zippy outside mids who can spread, receive, carry and kick the ball. Those are Caleb's strengths. Players described as making good decisions, good disposal and good under pressure are where its at, as far as im concerned.

As they say, if he was 4 inches taller he would be top 10, such is his ability to play football good.

I think given our current midfield makeup of slowish guys who are strong inside, someone with Calebs strengths compliments them very nicely indeed and I have no problem with seeing him as best available (for us) in the 2nd round.

32. Caleb Daniel (SA – Mid/Fwd)
Height: 167cm, Weight: 66kg, DOB: 07/07/1996
Recruited from: South Adelaide
Draft range: Late-rookie
Best position/role: Rotational forward/midfielder.

1. Yeah, you definitely can.
2. Yeah, it definitely is.
3. But he's not and the same could be said about anyone. If I was 4 inches taller I would have been top 10 ffs. 4 inches is an extraordinary amount of growth. Playing good football against kids is one thing, doing it against the best men in the country is another.

Regardless of how talented he may be, he's simply not the player for us. And tbh, I'll be very surprised if he is picked up, even more so if it's before the rookie draft. 167cm simply won't cut it at AFL level.

 

[dogzrule]

Not sure I like the Harvey comparison anyway to be honest. He doesn't have the X-factor of Harvey and is not as quick as you mentioned. It just seems to be the way of it that nearly every small midfielder gets compared to Boomer, I'm pretty sure Hrovat did too.

As TBOW said, I don't think we can carry two of Hrovat and Daniel.



I'm trying to look into the crystal ball a bit more here, so the bolded to me this is questionable. On exposed form he does have this ability, but will he be able to do that at the next level against much bigger bodies? At his size he's going to get pushed around a lot and will struggle to get much inside ball. It's been mentioned to me he really struggled to tackle anyone in the SANFL as well. I don't see the upside in him compared to many others either.

I'm calling he will be available by the rookie draft.

Tony Liberatore didnt get pushed around

 

[JJHunter]

My mate at work just sneezed and I said Menadue !

Hopefully he is ours in 16 days !

 

[stefoid]

1. Yeah, you definitely can.
2. Yeah, it definitely is.
3. But he's not and the same could be said about anyone. If I was 4 inches taller I would have been top 10 ffs. 4 inches is an extraordinary amount of growth. Playing good football against kids is one thing, doing it against the best men in the country is another.

Regardless of how talented he may be, he's simply not the player for us. And tbh, I'll be very surprised if he is picked up, even more so if it's before the rookie draft. 167cm simply won't cut it at AFL level.

We agree you cant have too many short people in the side, but you can have one or two if they are good enough. Brent Harvey is 167cm (apparently having just shrunk according to the north melbourne website) He is good enough.

I dont buy the "we have hrovat and honeychruch so we shouldnt draft any more small players onto the list" theory though - may the best player win a spot! Hrovat isnt entitled to a midfield rotation any more than anyone else. I look at a guy like Daniel who has genuine talent and then I look at our list and see guys like Howard, Tutt, Greenwood and Pearce who have spent way too long going nowhere on it. I dont see how having three talented short people on a list is any worse than three bigger stronger spuds who have deficiencies in decision making, intensity or disposal (flaws that tend to stay with a player)

 

[immortalmike]

Do you think Libba snr. would make it in the modern game?

Had to turn himself into a tagger to survive in the 90's.

Unfortunately desire & tenacity only get you so far these days.

Yes. He wasn't supposed to make it in the nineties. Yet he won a Brownlow.
He only became a tagger because he got old.

 

[Dry Rot]

How tall was WCE's Kerr?

He got picked later because he was short. Was a terrific player.

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

How tall was WCE's Kerr?

He got picked later because he was short. Was a terrific player.

About 178cm I think. Highlights the uphill battle Daniel's facing - players 10cm+ taller than him have dropped down the order because of a lack of height.

 

[Dry Rot]

About 178cm I think. Highlights the uphill battle Daniel's facing - players 10cm+ taller than him have dropped down the order because of a lack of height.

True. Thanks.

FWIW, Kerr put on the best live BOG performance I've ever seen, Rd 1, 2007, Swans v WCE. Simply amazing.

 

[Zgope1]

True. Thanks.

FWIW, Kerr put on the best live BOG performance I've ever seen, Rd 1, 2007, Swans v WCE. Simply amazing.

He was selwood before selwood was selwood

 

[immortalmike]

Tony Liberatore didnt get pushed around

Nope he was the one doing the pushing.

 

[TBOW]

Yes. He wasn't supposed to make it in the nineties. Yet he won a Brownlow.
He only became a tagger because he got old.

You don't get made a tagger due to age.

Libba was a warrior but he wasn't quick & his kicking was messy & short. He was made a tagger because he could have more impact on a game by negating a good payer than going head to head.

It was a different era- I don't think Libbas career has much relevance to Caleb Daniels.

 

[TBOW]

He was selwood before selwood was selwood

He was Selwood who didn't need to duck.

 

[GreatSouthWest]

Worrying about shorter players being out-marked by modern day stereotype footballers is analogous to fretting over the impact of candy cane on your yearly family budget.

Having a ‘Daniel vs. Sandilands’ would happen once in a blue moon. We don’t plan for Minson to relief rove do we?
If Daniel et al have the talent (which I think he does) then he deserves a chance on an AFL list. He’s not in my calculations for our primary picks, but those with sub 50+ picks could do worse.

If we rookie him I’d be delighted. He’d show many on the list (most of which have gone though) what hard work it takes to become an AFL player.

 

[immortalmike]

You don't get made a tagger due to age.

Libba was a warrior but he wasn't quick & his kicking was messy & short. He was made a tagger because he could have more impact on a game by negating a good payer than going head to head.

It was a different era- I don't think Libbas career has much relevance to Caleb Daniels.

Forgive the pun but I think you're selling Libba short. Watch Year of the Dog he was specifically mentioned as losing a yard because of age. So safe to say I acknowledge your point but respectfully disagree.

Libba is just one example of short-sightedness (sorry did it again) of AFL recruiting. Never say never in this industry.

 

[stefoid]

Forgive the pun but I think you're selling Libba short. Watch Year of the Dog he was specifically mentioned as losing a yard because of age. So safe to say I acknowledge your point but respectfully disagree.

Libba is just one example of short-sightedness (sorry did it again) of AFL recruiting. Never say never in this industry.

Nobody could go with Libba snr inside at the fall of the ball, but they begin sitting off him and sweating on his clearance disposals and then torching him around the ground. Ironically, he was probably better suited to the dour stoppage footy that has been the recent trend than to the footy of the 90s that was more open.

Totally different player to Daniel who we would be looking to play to his strengths of 'around the ground speed' and damaging disposal by foot.

 

[VitalDread]

Greenwood spotted in the week 2 pre-season video working out with the guys.

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

Worrying about shorter players being out-marked by modern day stereotype footballers is analogous to fretting over the impact of candy cane on your yearly family budget.

Having a ‘Daniel vs. Sandilands’ would happen once in a blue moon. We don’t plan for Minson to relief rove do we?
If Daniel et al have the talent (which I think he does) then he deserves a chance on an AFL list. He’s not in my calculations for our primary picks, but those with sub 50+ picks could do worse.

If we rookie him I’d be delighted. He’d show many on the list (most of which have gone though) what hard work it takes to become an AFL player.

Nobody's talking about Daniel going up against the tallest ruckman in the game though. We're talking about him going up against your average 180-185cm midfielder who he's giving up a massive 13-18 centimetres to. Not to mention the likes of Fyfe, Kennedy, Watson, Bontempelli, etc.

 

[immortalmike]

Nobody could go with Libba snr inside at the fall of the ball, but they begin sitting off him and sweating on his clearance disposals and then torching him around the ground. Ironically, he was probably better suited to the dour stoppage footy that has been the recent trend than to the footy of the 90s that was more open.

Totally different player to Daniel who we would be looking to play to his strengths of 'around the ground speed' and damaging disposal by foot.

Entirely different players. Just using Libba as an analogue and cautionary tale. I.e., conventional wisdom is often conventional but it isn't always wisdom.

 

[doggies ftw]

Ahhh really makes no sense to keep Greenwood on even as a rookie, ah well.

 

[GreatSouthWest]

Nobody's talking about Daniel going up against the tallest ruckman in the game though. We're talking about him going up against your average 180-185cm midfielder who he's giving up a massive 13-18 centimetres to. Not to mention the likes of Fyfe, Kennedy, Watson, Bontempelli, etc.

They've got to be able to catch the little prick. He's not the complete package, that's given, but he's got the speed, guile and manoeuvrability to evade and close down contests. One on one marking he’s sunk, but that’s not going to happen often imo and shouldn't be the main reason he misses being drafted.

 

[total football]

Worrying about shorter players being out-marked by modern day stereotype footballers is analogous to fretting over the impact of candy cane on your yearly family budget.

Having a ‘Daniel vs. Sandilands’ would happen once in a blue moon. We don’t plan for Minson to relief rove do we?
If Daniel et al have the talent (which I think he does) then he deserves a chance on an AFL list. He’s not in my calculations for our primary picks, but those with sub 50+ picks could do worse.

If we rookie him I’d be delighted. He’d show many on the list (most of which have gone though) what hard work it takes to become an AFL player.

Nobody's talking about Daniel going up against the tallest ruckman in the game though. We're talking about him going up against your average 180-185cm midfielder who he's giving up a massive 13-18 centimetres to. Not to mention the likes of Fyfe, Kennedy, Watson, Bontempelli, etc.

Agree. It would literally happen every time he was involved in a marking contest. He's 10cm shorter than Dahlhaus and Tutt ffs. That is a massive liability.

Unfortunately, some people just aren't suited to the game and I personally don't think Daniel is suited to playing AFL footy. Will be a star getting paid big dollars at local level.

 

[Doggies7]

Hopefully the only reason Greenwood is training is to prepare for Footscray. Would be very disappointed if we keep him on the list, i'd be happy with him at Footscray though.

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

They've got to be able to catch the little prick. He's not the complete package, that's given, but he's got the speed, guile and manoeuvrability to evade and close down contests. One on one marking he’s sunk, but that’s not going to happen often imo.

I'm not talking about when we're in possession - if he works hard enough to create space (which he does) he won't get involved in too many offensive marking contests. But defensively, the ball will be directed to his opponent again and again because they can just stick their arms up in the air and watch as Daniel helplessly swats at their arms at chest-height.

Ball retention is, at the moment, the most successful and efficient game style. Gone are the Geelong days of working hard to get the ball back and shooting the ball back up the middle. It's now about winning the ball and playing 'keepings off' until there's an opportunity to score. Big midfielders are becoming all the rage as it effectively breaks up this tactic - if you can't rely on your midfielders to win aerial contests against taller players, ball retention becomes impossible for long enough stints to score. With midfielders getting taller and taller in order to combat this game style (and the talent-laden expansion sides) a player of Daniel's height just doesn't meet the physical requirements of recruiters. He's got bucket loads of talent but you can't realistically expect him to compete in an AFL midfield as more and more teams seek to follow the Fremantle model into the future.