2014 Emirates Melbourne Cup Day discussion.

[KardiniaPark]

Was having a couple of beers with a mate last night and we both agreed the internationals are good for the cup, but thought there should be a rule introduced whereby each horse in the cup field has to run at least one group two in the country in the three months before the cup.

Benefits
- Gives punters slightly more exposed form
- Will bring more internationals into other big races, particularly CC and probably the Cox
- Gives the connections a chance to test their horse in Oz first (maybe that's not a good thing. can sow seeds of doubt)

Only four of the 11 internationals ran a lead up race in Oz - Protectionest, Admire Rakti, Siesmos, Au Revoir.

Of the top of my head now, but I'm not sure how many (if any) horses have won the Cup on a "hit and run" effort. Americain won the Geelong Cup. Dunaden came back and won the Caulfield but can't remember how long it was out here on it's Melb Cup winning prep.

Thoughts? Unnecessary? Too much resistance from connections?

Who are the VRC to be telling them how to train their horses though? It has been 20 years since the raiders started coming but I think everyone is still working out the best way for their horse, and that differs for every animal. So to say no you can't come into the race 1st up after 4 months puts some of them at a real disadvantage. Some may not even turn up because of it, now that the quarantine laws have changed and they have access to the Herbert Power they all might want to run in it anyway if that's what history says you need to do, but to have a blanket rule and say you must race here or here or here I just don't think it would work.

 

[Ron The Bear]

We'll come to the fore on Saturday in the Darley.

If not, we're ******

The name's changed again? That thing's had more names than Kardinia Park.

 

[KardiniaPark]

The name's changed again? That thing's had more names than Kardinia Park.

I've had this forever

 

[dean33]

If 'fun' to you is getting so ******* hammered and coked out that you become a menace to the patrons that aren't **** heads then yes lets ban 'fun'.

So 100,000 people were all hammered to the extent of being a menace were they? Fun to me is having a few drinks, a few bets and generally just enjoying the day with friends like the vast majority of the people there.

 

[Duritz]

I've heard that Admire Rakti was back in the stalls, and feeling a bit better, when Dean Yendall walked by and said, "That horse looks fine."

Thud.

 

[rideclutch]

As I said pre race, watch him after the line. 20m after the line he was past them all. The bozo 's on TVN also said this "he was held by the others on the line" rubbish. The preview guys on SKY got it right - they all tipped him top.

Yeah well done, I got it wrong.

 

[JuddsABlue]

With the tragic event that lead to araldo's breaking his leg, why isn't the fence covered with a padded covering for any area the horses walk through?

If the fence wasn't steal and instead covered by some sort of padding with no gaps the horse would not have injured itself.

Seems like a no brainer to me.

Hearing a lot of this kind of stuff

"why wasnt it like this, why wasnt it like that..." etc using hindsight to back up their point

Its a fairly unprecedented incident, I dont think having fences around Flemington padded is a 'no brainer'. It reminds me of Homer trying to baby proof his house by taping padding to everything turning the house in to a jumping caslte of sorts

Based on your logic we also should ban stairs at venues that serve alcohol because people might fall down them

 

[dean33]

Hearing a lot of this kind of stuff

"why wasnt it like this, why wasnt it like that..." etc using hindsight to back up their point

Its a fairly unprecedented incident, I dont think having fences around Flemington padded is a 'no brainer'. It reminds me of Homer trying to baby proof his house by taping padding to everything turning the house in to a jumping caslte of sorts

Based on your logic we also should ban stairs at venues that serve alcohol because people might fall down them

Actually no its not like that at all. its actually more like putting padding around a goal post to protect athletes, after all that's what these highly trained animals are aren't they?

Thoroughbreds are very flighty animals and are spooked quite easily, why have something exposed like metal fences that they can accidentally hit and hurt themselves?

How much is the racing industry worth?
How much do you think it would cost to pad the area from the mounting yard to the track?
Would it take anything away from the spectacle at all?
Would the padding have prevented this accident happening?

 

[JuddsABlue]

Actually no its not like that at all. its actually more like putting padding around a goal post to protect athletes, after all that's what these highly trained animals are aren't they?

Thoroughbreds are very flighty animals and are spooked quite easily, why have something exposed like metal fences that they can accidentally hit and hurt themselves?

How much is the racing industry worth?
How much do you think it would cost to pad the area from the mounting yard to the track?
Would it take anything away from the spectacle at all?
Would the padding have prevented this accident happening?

I hope you're asking the same thing for the AFL in regards to fencing around the ground, including benches. What about cameras and chairs that are scattered around the boundary? Surely its a 'no brainer' to have all the fences padded like the goal posts? Do we pad the race? Do we pad the benches in the change room where they practice? What about the showers, they might slip in the showers.

I see AFL players crash in to the fence more often than I see a horse kick a fence

Saying things like 'its no a brainer' is stupid. You could make a career out of finding things like this in sport that are accepted as being ok because of the extreme unlikelyhood of something like this occuring.

 

[JuddsABlue]

You would never ever walk around Flemington looking for safety concerns, see the fences and think "those are dangerous because a horse might kick them"

Its just such an absurd over protective stance to take and if you applied it to the fence, you would need to apply it to a million other things at the course.

You could take 10 of the best health and safety reps to Flemington and ask them to spot dangers that should be mitigated and none would say the fences are too hard. They might say people are too close, they might say theres too much noise, but they would never say "pad the fences" in case a horse kicks them

Assuming the fence is still hard underneath then they can still easily break their leg by kicking them anyway. You would need to remove the fences all together and put in place something that is easy breakable that would fall to the force of the horses leg.

And then you create a million other safety concerns because you have a fence that cant keep anything in.

 

[Jugada]

The fact your suggestion is just to pad the small area where this freak accident presumably happened shows how much of a reactionary Helen Lovejoy you're being. Why not pad every single piece of wooden or metal railing in the whole place? Pad out the boxes, floats and training areas too? Where do we stop?

 

[dean33]

I hope you're asking the same thing for the AFL in regards to fencing around the ground, including benches. What about cameras and chairs that are scattered around the boundary? Surely its a 'no brainer' to have all the fences padded like the goal posts? Do we pad the race? Do we pad the benches in the change room where they practice? What about the showers, they might slip in the showers.

I see AFL players crash in to the fence more often than I see a horse kick a fence

Saying things like 'its no a brainer' is stupid. You could make a career out of finding things like this in sport that are accepted as being ok because of the extreme unlikelyhood of something like this occuring.

you see safety in sport is generally improved after incidents. So it doesn't happen often so it will never happen again? Its a small thing to do that might stop the same thing happening in the future. If you can improve the safety of the participants in a sport without a huge cost and with no negative to the spectacle, why wouldn't you?

The trainer has come out and said its not car racing, people shouldn't be waving flags. I reckon it's a tad easier to make the fences safer than inforce people not to wave flags or make noise as the horses come back in.

And your analogy to football, i'm pretty sure i have seen boundary line fences padded when they have been to close to the action. I suppose the difference is that footballers aren't put down if they break an arm.

 

[dean33]

The fact your suggestion is just to pad the small area where this freak accident presumably happened shows how much of a reactionary Helen Lovejoy you're being. Why not pad every single piece of wooden or metal railing in the whole place? Pad out the boxes, floats and training areas too? Where do we stop?

I suppose the area where the horses come back to scale is probably 5 metres wide, is filled with other horses and has thousands of people yelling on one side. Probably an area where a horse is likely to be spooked.

 

[ABitWoofy]

The fact your suggestion is just to pad the small area where this freak accident presumably happened shows how much of a reactionary Helen Lovejoy you're being. Why not pad every single piece of wooden or metal railing in the whole place? Pad out the boxes, floats and training areas too? Where do we stop?

Uh hem, wouldn't it just be easier to pad the horse?

 

[JuddsABlue]

I suppose the area where the horses come back to scale is probably 5 metres wide, is filled with other horses and has thousands of people yelling on one side. Probably an area where a horse is likely to be spooked.

yet your suggestion to make it safer isnt to stop the horse from being spooked, but to make fences that arent strong enough to break a horses leg if, when spooked, they kick it?

And this is a 'no brainer'?

You also say its easier to replace the entire fencing of Flemington (have you been there, and are you aware of how many fences there are? if not I'll point out the rhetorical answer and say there is A LOT of fences) than to "stop people waiving flags"? Why do we need to stop them from waiving flags in a horses face, why not just create a greater seperation between spectator and horse?

Maybe I'm crazy and maybe you're right, creating this new 'super fence' that can act with the characteristics that a fence requires, but still be brittle enough to fall apart under the kick of a horse to not damage it is the no brainer and just creating some more space between the horses and people is a little too difficult

Just rip out the old ones and put in the new ones ay, super easy! Lets do it tonight before the races tomorrow

 

[dean33]

yet your suggestion to make it safer isnt to stop the horse from being spooked, but to make fences that arent strong enough to break a horses leg if, when spooked, they kick it?

And this is a 'no brainer'?

You also say its easier to replace the entire fencing of Flemington (have you been there, and are you aware of how many fences there are? if not I'll point out the rhetorical answer and say there is A LOT of fences) than to "stop people waiving flags"? Why do we need to stop them from waiving flags in a horses face, why not just create a greater seperation between spectator and horse?

Maybe I'm crazy and maybe you're right, creating this new 'super fence' that can act with the characteristics that a fence requires, but still be brittle enough to fall apart under the kick of a horse to not damage it is the no brainer and just creating some more space between the horses and people is a little too difficult

Just rip out the old ones and put in the new ones ay, super easy! Lets do it tonight before the races tomorrow

so this greater separation between spectator and horses... please enlighten me as to how this is going to work. Shall we cut the amount of people we can get in the track from 100k to 80k?

 

[JuddsABlue]

so this greater separation between spectator and horses... please enlighten me as to how this is going to work. Shall we cut the amount of people we can get in the track from 100k to 80k?

Maybe wider walkways for the horses

 

[dean33]

Maybe wider walkways for the horses

how wide? 10 metres? 20 metres? how many less people will get in? will it be cheaper than padding around a metal fence taking into account the lost revenue from being able to fit fewer people in the track? can we get this done by oaks day?

 

[Aussie Assault]

Horses have to wear a big bubble to prevent these freak occurences from ever happening again.

 

[JuddsABlue]

how wide? 10 metres? 20 metres? how many less people will get in? will it be cheaper than padding around a metal fence taking into account the lost revenue from being able to fit fewer people in the track? can we get this done by oaks day?

lol it sounds like you're really trying to pick apart something I've presented that is very basic, because your 'no brainer' solution was absurdly complicated and made no sense and was rightfully dismissed very quickly

Whats the reach of a human hand + long flag? About as far as it needs to be so a person and their belongings cant get to the horse. It might be 5 or 10 meters, I'm not sure, I dont have my measuring stick or a horse handy.

Who cares how many less people will get in? Isnt safety the concern here? I couldnt imagine changing the paths the horses use to get around the track will have that great of an effect on the grandstand or viewing areas though. Again I ask, are you familiar with Flemington and great expanding areas where no horse goes near that holds 100k people? This wont have an effect on crowd numbers or revnue.

And yes, it will be cheaper than padding all the metal fencing that the horses are near, especially considering it'll have to be removed once people realise its still extremely hard underneath and the horse can still break its leg on it.

 

[dean33]

lol it sounds like you're really trying to pick apart something I've presented that is very basic, because your 'no brainer' solution was absurdly complicated and made no sense and was rightfully dismissed very quickly

Whats the reach of a human hand + long flag? About as far as it needs to be so a person and their belongings cant get to the horse. It might be 5 or 10 meters, I'm not sure, I dont have my measuring stick or a horse handy.

Who cares how many less people will get in? Isnt safety the concern here? I couldnt imagine changing the paths the horses use to get around the track will have that great of an effect on the grandstand or viewing areas though. Again I ask, are you familiar with Flemington and great expanding areas where no horse goes near that holds 100k people? This wont have an effect on crowd numbers or revnue.

And yes, it will be cheaper than padding all the metal fencing that the horses are near, especially considering it'll have to be removed once people realise its still extremely hard underneath and the horse can still break its leg on it.

Who said anything about every fence in flemington? I'm talking about the entrance to the track where the width is quite small and people are close to the horse, if they spook they have no-where to go. This would not cost much, and is much more feasible than widening this space. I have suggested an easy solution while you are trying to make it seem like putting a man on the moon.

 

[dean33]

lol it sounds like you're really trying to pick apart something I've presented that is very basic, because your 'no brainer' solution was absurdly complicated and made no sense and was rightfully dismissed very quickly

Whats the reach of a human hand + long flag? About as far as it needs to be so a person and their belongings cant get to the horse. It might be 5 or 10 meters, I'm not sure, I dont have my measuring stick or a horse handy.

Who cares how many less people will get in? Isnt safety the concern here? I couldnt imagine changing the paths the horses use to get around the track will have that great of an effect on the grandstand or viewing areas though. Again I ask, are you familiar with Flemington and great expanding areas where no horse goes near that holds 100k people? This wont have an effect on crowd numbers or revnue.

And yes, it will be cheaper than padding all the metal fencing that the horses are near, especially considering it'll have to be removed once people realise its still extremely hard underneath and the horse can still break its leg on it.

I'm confused, which one is it?

 

[JuddsABlue]

Who said anything about every fence in flemington? I'm talking about the entrance to the track where the width is quite small and people are close to the horse, if they spook they have no-where to go. This would not cost much, and is much more feasible than widening this space. I have suggested an easy solution while you are trying to make it seem like putting a man on the moon.

lol you'll "pad up" that fence, then when a horse kicks in the mounting yard, you'll scream "why isnt the mounting yard padded as well?!! idiots!! its a no brainer!"

then theyll pad the mounting yard, then a horse will kick in the stalls and you'll scream the same thing

If they need to create a seperate barrier 1m in from that fence to keep people and horses away then thats easy done, padding every fence a horse might walk past (you dont seem to understand that 'padding' a fence itslef is a ludaris solution that wont help at all, a horse can still break its leg on a padded surface, they kick quite strong you know), is not a solution.

 

[The Passenger]

Uh hum, wouldn't it just be easier just to pad the horse?

have them run the 3200 in those big sumo suits that are normally reserved for footy show grand final edition?

 

[iluvparis]

I've heard that Admire Rakti was back in the stalls, and feeling a bit better, when Dean Yendall walked by and said, "That horse looks fine."

Thud.

Huge!