List Mgmt. 2015 LIST Discussion - trades, free agency etc

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P_Crippy

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Oh. My. God.

It's the only thing that makes sense. Ever since Malthouse got sacked, KoR has been spending all his time on the BF board, as though whatever he was doing previously is no longer taking up his time...

King of Ruin IS Malthouse!
Hence all the posts that refuse to mention Nick Graham.
 

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therubbernub

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Because there isn't and should not be a direct correlation between salary and height?

Otherwise you get Warnock situations.

Betts is, right now, THE best small forward in the competition. Can win games off his own boot. He's third in the Coleman medal tally and only one goal off the bloke in second. To be honest, I'd be comfortable paying the bloke $600-800k the way he's playing.

Hendo is just starting to come good, along with the rest of the team, but isn't even our leading goalkicker. He gives us a bit of flexibility which counts for something, but should he be earning more than Casboult? Cripps? Bell? Armfield? It's a tough balance to find, but performance dictates value, not the other way around.
I agree eddie has been a big loss especially given his IMPROVEMENT/DEVELOPMENT since he left. My point is, that at the time, eddies form was inconsistent against stronger sides, and he was really a one position player. His midfield forays were ok but nothing special. I stand by my assertion, that at the time, he was asking too much money for a small mercurial forward that had inconsistencies. We also had at the time, garlett. No one could foresee the events that led to his moving.
Henderson on the other hand is far more key to our prospects. He is a flexible big player and imo should command more than a small forward
 

THE_GUN

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Good to see the blues up & about again and looking foward to Tiges v Blues game next week and hope we continue the tradition of getting 70,000+ at our games

Good luck this week against the Doggies, Hope you guys win ( kind of suits us as well )
 

Blue__Balls

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Good to see the blues up & about again and looking foward to Tiges v Blues game next week and hope we continue the tradition of getting 70,000+ at our games

Good luck this week against the Doggies, Hope you guys win ( kind of suits us as well )
Damnit!

Now I'm gonna be disappointed no matter what the result!

Thanks a lot.
 

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Farktherest

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Betts is, right now, THE best small forward in the competition. Can win games off his own boot. He's third in the Coleman medal tally and only one goal off the bloke in second. To be honest, I'd be comfortable paying the bloke $600-800k the way he's playing.
Yeah nah.

Betts is having a career best season, but even now we again have seen he goes missing in the really intense, physical games...just not flexible enough given he can only play small forward and don't think he stands up in tough physical games, which most finals are.

Would not pay him 600k.
 

Farktherest

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Because there isn't and should not be a direct correlation between salary and height?
Well actually, as we all know good key forwards are very important to a sides structure and are much harder to find than midfielders...so yeah, KPF's do tend to get a higher salary per output than a midfield counterpart.
 

Funk

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If people were allowed to do the job they've been charged with, then we'd have some hope.

All this chopping and changing on someone else's whims becomes a real problem. Anyway, I best move away from that before JaB comes at me again. :)
Nothing worse than a JaB coming at you.

That's what got EFC into all this trouble!

(Multiple JaBs actually)
 

Blue__Balls

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Well actually, as we all know good key forwards are very important to a sides structure and are much harder to find than midfielders...so yeah, KPF's do tend to get a higher salary per output than a midfield counterpart.
Not saying that good KPF's shouldn't be paid well - but your logic would imply that Liam Jones should be paid more than Chris Judd, simply because he's a KPF.

I'll repeat what I said before, Betts is coming third in the Coleman Medal, and is one goal off Buddy Franklin in second place. He's kicked 35 goals. If we had a tall forward who'd kicked 35 goals at this point in the season, you'd be happy to pay them substantially more than Eddie, just because they're taller? Pay should reflect performance, and while he does occasionally have quiet games, so does everyone.

Year - Goals Kicked
2009 - 38
2010 - 42
2011 - 50
2012 - 48
2013 - 27
2014 - 51
2015 - 35 (to round 13)

The guy is averaging 42 goals per season, and will increase that average this year. I don't care how tall he is, if he's kicking goals pay the man.

This post is making me sad now, so I'm gonna leave it on this note - no point paying a tall bloke more just cause he's tall, he's gotta be contributing enough to earn it.
 

andrew_

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Not saying that good KPF's shouldn't be paid well - but your logic would imply that Liam Jones should be paid more than Chris Judd, simply because he's a KPF.

I'll repeat what I said before, Betts is coming third in the Coleman Medal, and is one goal off Buddy Franklin in second place. He's kicked 35 goals. If we had a tall forward who'd kicked 35 goals at this point in the season, you'd be happy to pay them substantially more than Eddie, just because they're taller? Pay should reflect performance, and while he does occasionally have quiet games, so does everyone.

Year - Goals Kicked
2009 - 38
2010 - 42
2011 - 50
2012 - 48
2013 - 27
2014 - 51
2015 - 35 (to round 13)

The guy is averaging 42 goals per season, and will increase that average this year. I don't care how tall he is, if he's kicking goals pay the man.

This post is making me sad now, so I'm gonna leave it on this note - no point paying a tall bloke more just cause he's tall, he's gotta be contributing enough to earn it.
It really comes down to poor list management and the poison that was MM. It's simple really, if MM didn't take care of his own (Thomas) Betts would still be at the club. The man clearly carried too much weight at the club and convinced everyone that essentially a swap of Thomas for Betts was a good idea.
 

Farktherest

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Not saying that good KPF's shouldn't be paid well - but your logic would imply that Liam Jones should be paid more than Chris Judd, simply because he's a KPF.

I'll repeat what I said before, Betts is coming third in the Coleman Medal, and is one goal off Buddy Franklin in second place. He's kicked 35 goals. If we had a tall forward who'd kicked 35 goals at this point in the season, you'd be happy to pay them substantially more than Eddie, just because they're taller? Pay should reflect performance, and while he does occasionally have quiet games, so does everyone.

Year - Goals Kicked
2009 - 38
2010 - 42
2011 - 50
2012 - 48
2013 - 27
2014 - 51
2015 - 35 (to round 13)

The guy is averaging 42 goals per season, and will increase that average this year. I don't care how tall he is, if he's kicking goals pay the man.

This post is making me sad now, so I'm gonna leave it on this note - no point paying a tall bloke more just cause he's tall, he's gotta be contributing enough to earn it.
Thats not what I'm saying at all. Obviously that would just be stupid. Im saying that hypothetically, if you had a tall key forward and a midfielder of equal standing and performance output, you might still have to pay the key forward more simply because they are rarer to find and young tall forwards take longer to develop than young midfielders - which leads to more big money offers from rivals. The big money that was splashed around for guys like Tippett, Rance, Cloke, Carlisle and even Hendo himself from other clubs is proof of that. Big money relative to their performance output.

Boyd is a good example too, offered big money from the dogs and apparently ours was close to 1 million per year as well, despite only being in his second year and showing nothing at senior level yet. His perceived value was mainly because he was a key position forward who 'you could build your forward line around for the next 10 years'. No club would ever offer that to a 2nd year midfielder who has shown nothing (except GWS and Scully, but GWS were cashed up and desperate to attract some players).

Betts is a good player no doubt. But i think a lot of people agreed at the time that 600k was too much to pay for a guy who could only play small forward, and in my opinion, goes missing too often in high intensity, physical games.
 

Farktherest

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It really comes down to poor list management and the poison that was MM. It's simple really, if MM didn't take care of his own (Thomas) Betts would still be at the club. The man clearly carried too much weight at the club and convinced everyone that essentially a swap of Thomas for Betts was a good idea.
Would have been interesting if Thomas didn't hurt his shoulder, which was a new impact injury.

He did do some nice things last year, was having a really good game against Geelong last year before, again, getting injured and subbed off.
Not even close to enough for his pay packet, but they were good signs for this year. Unfortunately he got injured again.
 
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Betts is averaging three goals a game in losses this year.

He'll finish his career nearing an average of 2 goals a game, which is elite territory for small forwards, and much of that played in our woeful years.

600k is 6% of the salary cap. Not that expensive when you look at our list.

Anyway, it's done now, and obviously Mick's coaching left him cold. I'm happy to see him play good footy in a decent side. But history will always say that he should have been a one club player.
 

Blue__Balls

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Thats not what I'm saying at all. Obviously that would just be stupid. Im saying that hypothetically, if you had a tall key forward and a midfielder of equal standing and performance output, you might still have to pay the key forward more simply because they are rarer to find and young tall forwards take longer to develop than young midfielders - which leads to more big money offers from rivals. The big money that was splashed around for guys like Tippett, Rance, Cloke, Carlisle and even Hendo himself from other clubs is proof of that. Big money relative to their performance output.

Boyd is a good example too, offered big money from the dogs and apparently ours was close to 1 million per year as well, despite only being in his second year and showing nothing at senior level yet. His perceived value was mainly because he was a key position forward who 'you could build your forward line around for the next 10 years'. No club would ever offer that to a 2nd year midfielder who has shown nothing (except GWS and Scully, but GWS were cashed up and desperate to attract some players).

Betts is a good player no doubt. But i think a lot of people agreed at the time that 600k was too much to pay for a guy who could only play small forward, and in my opinion, goes missing too often in high intensity, physical games.
Had to go back and reread what started this tangent - I'd completely forgotten.

I think we're both in agreement that it's not worth quibbling over $50k a year for Hendo. If $50k more than what our current offer is will get the job done, we should just go with it.

My point is that we shouldn't be paying Hendo big money just cause he's a tall, he does need to earn it. I think he's starting to do that now, and I hope the club see that and reward him for it. The interesting consideration is how Levi compares to Henderson in the salary department. He's kicked more goals, plays multiple roles, and has improved dramatically as the season has gone on.

If Levi is on $350k at the moment, and Hendo $500k, does upping Hendo to $600k mean Levi will be expecting a substantial increase as well? Should they be earning the same? Is one more valuable than the other, and if so, by how much?
 

mediumsizered

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Eddie wanted to go back to SA for family reasons, his fathers health was an issue for him, it wasn't all,about money or mick
Don't let the facts get in the way of a good story Bluesque . If some would just accept that Betts was gone no matter what transpired, & not just because of his father either.
 

BluStreak

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The whole pay structure should reflect the value of the position being played. KPP would have a higher salary ceiling than say Midfield.
It should be proportionate to the key factors involved in the responsibility required, skill set etc to play that position.
There are then other factors that should be considered, for instance dual position, seniority, performance over a set period, Leadership responsibilities, incentives etc.
This would mean that you have a team who know that based on the position they play they are in a set pay range.
They can then add to this by performance and development.
 

Coona Blues

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Anybody else liking the Kreuzer/Wood combo atm?

Two hard working rucks with plenty of heart that allow us to keep a decent forward structure as well.
Like both players and the "combo".
Going forward it is hard to fathom the overall benefit of playing both, long term, when ball movement is the prime focus
of the game and one Levi Casboult is such a solid back up ruckman.
 
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