2015 Trade/FA Discussion (cont. in Pt.2)

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DaZorko

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You see the difference though, right? We picked up Cornelius in the draft and Lisle essentially from another club's VFL list. Casboult has been a consistent senior AFL level forward for Carlton. We haven't recruited a forward of his calibre in a while. Not saying he's a superstar - although I reiterate that I do think he has a lot of room left to improve - but he is at the very least a proven mature AFL key forward role player.

Takes the best defender, can take a contested mark, straightens his side up and gives them something to kick to - he's exactly what we need in that regard. I'm not as hopeful that Freeman, Close & McStay will turn into gun full forwards as many on here are (going on the odds in the league we'd be doing very well if one did, let alone all three), but even if they do become great players able to lead a forward line it won't be for a number of years.

So again, I think there are four options:

1 - Levi Casboult
2 - Chris Dawes
3 - Jesse White
4 - A dysfunctional forward line for another season

And the most absurd thing is, we're not talking about giving up something insane for them. Pick 21's a good pick, but to get two proven AFL players with plenty of scope for improvement for it would be an incredible trade. As I said, I'm genuinely a bit surprised that anyone who has watched us well over the past few years and has watched these two well over the past few years could be unhappy with 21 for both of them. It's an astonishingly good trade for us. So good that I thought there had been a typo in the article.
Id take option number 4, and get Steve Johnson to sign a contract for a season and play as the Full Forward. If all those are our options we in big trouble. Freeman the kid just needs to stay on the park. If the club goes and gets Casboult we haven't learned our lesson at all and will finish bottom 4. Because at the end of the day, thats scraping at the bottom of the barrel. It will put us behind the competition, in a big way. I think even Melbourne relised that with Dawes and are trying to ship him out the door.
 

BRAB

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Id take option number 4, and get Steve Johnson to sign a contract for a season and play as the Full Forward. If all those are our options we in big trouble. Freeman the kid just needs to stay on the park. If the club goes and gets Casboult we haven't learned our lesson at all and will finish bottom 4. Because at the end of the day, thats scraping at the bottom of the barrel. It will put us behind the competition, in a big way. I think even Melbourne relised that with Dawes and are trying to ship him out the door.
So you think a dysfunctional forward line with a forward flanker as the full forward and a bunch of kids will keep us out of the bottom 4?
 

jackess

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Genuinely astonished that anyone who has watched our dysfunctional forward line in the past 18 months wouldn't think Casboult would be an enormous improvement.

Nothing frustrates me more on this forum than those who believe that any combination of McStay, Freeman, Schache and Close will be able to hold up our forward 50. We've only seen a few key forwards lead a forward line under the age of 23/24 over the past few seasons.

Hogan: One-off kind of player, unusually solid frame for someone of that age, and has had mature alternates in the forward line making it easier for him in Dawes and rotating ruckmen.

Cameron: Quite different to your usual key forward with his skill set. Certainly not comparable to any of our young keys.

Lynch: Had Dixon alongside him, and even then only really started to hold his own in that forward line rather than just show glimpses this season.

Also important to remember that those three examples are all elite talent, a level which despite their talents, McStay, Close and Freeman aren't at. They also played for sides not competing for the finals, so it's hard to know if they would have actually been able to lead a forward line when it matters.

Casboult is not Josh Kennedy or Tom Hawkins. But that's why he might be gettable. What he is is a key forward who can take a contested grab in the perfect age bracket to lead the forward line while Freeman, Close, McStay and Schache develop underneath him. He could finally give our forward line some structure - the main reason we've sent Merrett forward numerous times over the past few seasons.

I'm personally pretty bullish on Casboult's potential to develop further and become a very good key forward, but even if he is just a role player, he will be playing a role we currently have nobody else to play. It makes sense on so many levels. In some ways it reminds me of when Shulz went to Port.

I strongly believe we need a more mature key forward option this trade period, and if it's not Casboult then the other options are Jesse White and Chris Dawes.

The point I really want to make though is that McStay, Freeman, Schache and Close in any form will not be a good forward line next season. Likely not the year after that either. They're too young to hold up the forward 50 on their own - AFL precedent couldn't be much clearer on that. Browny was one of the best young key forwards to play the game, but he only went so well because of Lynch and Bradshaw.

We have some exciting young key forward prospects with the likelihood of adding another in November, but we need someone to lead that forward line until they're ready. Because they just quite simply aren't yet.
Does Casboult know how to play as a forward though? Seems to me he just relies on being a huge key forward and relying on taking big marks. He also offers little defensive pressure which is another big issue with our forward line. If Freeman can't get to same level of as Casboult this season we might as well give up on him.

He'd be handy but he's not worth a top 25 draft pick.
 

DaZorko

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So you think a dysfunctional forward line with a forward flanker as the full forward and a bunch of kids will keep us out of the bottom 4?
It worked for the Bulldogs. We have Mcstay Close Freeman Schache. We also have Mayes if takes the next step can play and Stringer type role up forward. Would back ort smalls, to learn off Stevie J for a season and might help Green go another level.
 

Kevvo

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With or without Schache, if the same forward line as 2015 continues for another year, the wooden spoon is inevitable. Casboult is the perfect prospect.
I think that's over-pessimistic. I reckon you might see Freeman take a big step forward this year with or without Casboult, though I do like the sound of getting him.
 

cmt26

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"That is just not the player that Levi is though, unfortunately. He is not a magnet type Power Forward. He doesn't get involved in enough contests.

He just generally doesn't do enough of anything other than take some magnificent looking strong marks now and then.

He doesn't get it enough. He doesn't pressure enough on the way out. He doesn't direct the forward line enough. He doesn't tackle enough. He doesn't contribute to goals/scores enough.

And god help him if his improved converting was only temporary good fortune. He did improve it the 2nd half of this season. But it is still hard to have confidence in that action."

The above is a quote from a Carlton supporter on the main board that sums up how I feel about Casboult. For mine, he doesn't get involved enough, seems to take one or two big grabs and then disappear for the rest of the game. Is barely sighted with defensive pressure and seems quite lumbering/slow. I understand that our KPF cupboard is bare in terms of mature bodies, but I can't get excited about giving away a top 25 pick for him & Bell. Just feel like it's a move backwards at that price.

Generally strong teams are built on the back of 2-3 really strong drafts in consecutive years and then topped up with trading. I think the '13 crop of 6 (originally 7, I have minused Aish)(maybe add Jansen as well), McGrath & Andrews last year plus this years crop of Schache, Keays, Hipwood could be our building blocks for a very strong future. Id like to have another top 25 youngster amongst that group. Particularly in a weak draft year.

Happy to get Bell & Casboult for any amount of picks outside of that top 25. Just would prefer if we didn't overpay.
 
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I think that's over-pessimistic. I reckon you might see Freeman take a big step forward this year with or without Casboult, though I do like the sound of getting him.
I agree that Freeman may take a huge leap in performance, but he'd develop more effectively with a mature body next to him in the forward line. Whether that experienced mature body is Casboult or not is yet to be seen, but some people are so incredibly negative about Levi and I honestly don't understand it.

The Lions are crying out for a big bodied experienced forward but fans complain when only Casboult becomes a realistic option. Can't expect Roughead or Franklin to come to a club who came runners-up to the wooden spoon. Levi will come cheap as chips and would be a brilliant prospect imo.
 
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Does Casboult know how to play as a forward though? Seems to me he just relies on being a huge key forward and relying on taking big marks. He also offers little defensive pressure which is another big issue with our forward line. If Freeman can't get to same level of as Casboult this season we might as well give up on him.

He'd be handy but he's not worth a top 25 draft pick.
A huge key forward who relies on taking big marks-sounds horrible.
 

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Kevvo

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I agree that Freeman may take a huge leap in performance, but he'd develop more effectively with a mature body next to him in the forward line. Whether that experienced mature body is Casboult or not is yet to be seen, but some people are so incredibly negative about Levi and I honestly don't understand it.

The Lions are crying out for a big bodied experienced forward but fans complain when only Casboult becomes a realistic option. Can't expect Roughead or Franklin to come to a club who came runners-up to the wooden spoon. Levi will come cheap as chips and would be a brilliant prospect imo.
I agree that a senior forward would be great, and I'm relatively optimistic about getting Casboult. We don't disagree on that point. Where we disagree is that I think it's overstating the point to say that we are guaranteed the spoon if we don't get him. I think he'd be a nice get, not a critical one.
 
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bato

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Lol at Trade Week Radio guy (not sure who it is) trying to talk up a Casboult move to Freo. "They're looking for a key forward." and "I would pick Freo if I were him".
 

pulpdriver

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Freo won't be able to get McCarthy without selling the farm so it would make sense for them to target someone like Casboult but pretty confident we'll be able to offer Carlton something more reasonable in a trade. Can't see them having anything they would let go which would appeal to Carlton.
 

Bucking Beads

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Freo won't be able to get McCarthy without selling the farm so it would make sense for them to target someone like Casboult but pretty confident we'll be able to offer Carlton something more reasonable in a trade. Can't see them having anything they would let go which would appeal to Carlton.
It doesn't matter what we offer. Casboult has to want to come to us. He hasn't asked for a trade.
 

pulpdriver

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It doesn't matter what we offer. Casboult has to want to come to us. He hasn't asked for a trade.
Valid point but it seems like Carlton are happy to listen to offers for him and I'm guessing if he hasn't had his manager come out and say 'Levi is contracted and sees his future at Carlton etc' then Casboult is probably also considering his future and open to a move.
 

Ironmonger

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Casboult to Freo makes sense, really. Their second round pick would be #35, I think, which seems about right.

Possibly Carlton could package that with Bell and trade it to us for pick 21, so ultimately it probably wouldn't matter much to them whether he goes to us or the Dockers.

I won't lose too much sleep if we miss out on Casboult. As others have said, he'd be a useful short term fix, but fingers crossed he'll get passed by at least two of Freeman, Close, Schache, Hipwood or McStay in the next two or three years.
 

Bucking Beads

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Valid point but it seems like Carlton are happy to listen to offers for him and I'm guessing if he hasn't had his manager come out and say 'Levi is contracted and sees his future at Carlton etc' then Casboult is probably also considering his future and open to a move.
Casboult is apparently open to a trade. It is happy at Carlton. If it comes down to a choice between us or a finals bound team I'd say it's an easy decision for him.
 

Panthera

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"That is just not the player that Levi is though, unfortunately. He is not a magnet type Power Forward. He doesn't get involved in enough contests.

He just generally doesn't do enough of anything other than take some magnificent looking strong marks now and then.

He doesn't get it enough. He doesn't pressure enough on the way out. He doesn't direct the forward line enough. He doesn't tackle enough. He doesn't contribute to goals/scores enough.

And god help him if his improved converting was only temporary good fortune. He did improve it the 2nd half of this season. But it is still hard to have confidence in that action."

The above is a quote from a Carlton supporter on the main board that sums up how I feel about Casboult. For mine, he doesn't get involved enough, seems to take one or two big grabs and then disappear for the rest of the game. Is barely sighted with defensive pressure and seems quite lumbering/slow. I understand that our KPF cupboard is bare in terms of mature bodies, but I can't get excited about giving away a top 25 pick for him & Bell. Just feel like it's a move backwards at that price.

Generally strong teams are built on the back of 2-3 really strong drafts in consecutive years and then topped up with trading. I think the '13 crop of 6 (originally 7, I have minused Aish)(maybe add Jansen as well), McGrath & Andrews last year plus this years crop of Schache, Keays, Hipwood could be our building blocks for a very strong future. Id like to have another top 25 youngster amongst that group. Particularly in a weak draft year.

Happy to get Bell & Casboult for any amount of picks outside of that top 25. Just would prefer if we didn't overpay.
Agree to some extent, but he has played in a horrid team with not a lot of midfield muscle throughout his career. And whilst we are not world beaters - we should now be experienced enough to send the ball into the forward line, on average 50 times per game next season. What Casboult would potentially bring to the team is to take away the opposition's advantage of having a gorilla defender on a Freeman, Close, McStay etc. In any case, all three of those blokes should be up around the 100kg mark by the start of the new season and will be able to hold their own better.

He can take a mark, can now kick OK and knock over a pack or two - I think he's actually the perfect player to assist in bringing through our younger forwards, as well as ensuring that we don't get outmarked in our own F50 as often as we have been over the past couple of seasons.

Happy to use the Leuey compo pick to nab Casboult and Bell :thumbsu:
 

bato

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Can someone actually confirm it wasn't a typo on The Age?

How is it even possible to grab two good players with one second rounder? Can't say I have ever seen that happen before.
 

jackess

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Casboult to Freo makes sense, really. Their second round pick would be #35, I think, which seems about right.

Possibly Carlton could package that with Bell and trade it to us for pick 21, so ultimately it probably wouldn't matter much to them whether he goes to us or the Dockers.

I won't lose too much sleep if we miss out on Casboult. As others have said, he'd be a useful short term fix, but fingers crossed he'll get passed by at least two of Freeman, Close, Schache, Hipwood or McStay in the next two or three years.
This sums up my thinking especially with the club taking a long term view.
 

cmt26

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Agree to some extent, but he has played in a horrid team with not a lot of midfield muscle throughout his career. And whilst we are not world beaters - we should now be experienced enough to send the ball into the forward line, on average 50 times per game next season. What Casboult would potentially bring to the team is to take away the opposition's advantage of having a gorilla defender on a Freeman, Close, McStay etc. In any case, all three of those blokes should be up around the 100kg mark by the start of the new season and will be able to hold their own better.

He can take a mark, can now kick OK and knock over a pack or two - I think he's actually the perfect player to assist in bringing through our younger forwards, as well as ensuring that we don't get outmarked in our own F50 as often as we have been over the past couple of seasons.

Happy to use the Leuey compo pick to nab Casboult and Bell :thumbsu:
I get that he adds a mature body to our forward line which would aid the development of McStay, Freeman and Schache considerably.

My concern is more about overpaying for him and where he is rated as a footballer. If you look at Chris Dawes now, I think it's not a bad comparison to fast forward 3 years and expect to see Casboult in the same position.

Happy to get him, on the basis that we don't overpay by giving up a top 25 pick.
 
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