2016/17 Summer of Cricket - AUS vs India 2nd test- 4th innings

DemonTim

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That's a different comparison, full forwards and Centre half forwards have different physical makeups. Cricket is just not getting out and scoring runs.

Almost all batsmen come into the test side at 5 or 6 and cut their teeth before they move up to 3 of there amazing. There isn't really such thing as a good number 6. A number 6 is either a temporary batsmen or a temporary number 3 or 4
Plenty of CHF and FF have the same build.

A number 6 needs to be able to face an old ball/pitch, and steer the direction of the innings. Khawaja struggles with the old ball, and when the ball starts with less predictable movement.

I'll let my mate know to get in contact, I'm sure they'll throw coin at you two, since apparently coaching is pretty simple and every batsmen can bat in every spot.

Khawaja is on better terms with the coaches and players too, if khawaja was a better choice at 6 than maxwell he would've played. But he's not.
 

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Cannon82

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Plenty of CHF and FF have the same build.

A number 6 needs to be able to face an old ball/pitch, and steer the direction of the innings. Khawaja struggles with the old ball, and when the ball starts with less predictable movement.

I'll let my mate know to get in contact, I'm sure they'll throw coin at you two, since apparently coaching is pretty simple and every batsmen can bat in every spot.

Khawaja is on better terms with the coaches and players too, if khawaja was a better choice at 6 than maxwell he would've played. But he's not.
Struggles with the old ball to the tune of five 50s and a ton in his last 10 test innings? Makes sense.

If you're going to sit there and throw the "my mate knows better" argument around, I hope you never disagree with anything a club or nation do, because the guys in charge will know best.
 

DemonTim

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Struggles with the old ball to the tune of five 50s and a ton in his last 10 test innings? Makes sense.

If you're going to sit there and throw the "my mate knows better" argument around, I hopeyou never disagree with anything a club or nation do, because the guys in charge will know best.
How much did he face of the old ball? He can't handle swing/spin on older pitches with an older ball. It's pretty well known. Where were his last 10 innings? Where did he make the runs? In what overs did he score and go out? How did he go out?

He's not even in charge, but he's provided evidence, and works daily in the field. If they had played maxwell at 3 and his justification was "because we felt like it" then your argument would work. But when there is evidence and logic provided it doesn't.
 

Cannon82

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How much did he face of the old ball? He can't handle swing/spin on older pitches with an older ball. It's pretty well known. Where were his last 10 innings? Where did he make the runs? In what overs did he score and go out? How did he go out?

He's not even in charge, but he's provided evidence, and works daily in the field. If they had played maxwell at 3 and his justification was "because we felt like it" then your argument would work. But when there is evidence and logic provided it doesn't.
The answers to all your queries are in the link, if you click on it. Does the ball only get old once Khawaja gets out?

Not my point. Were you happy with the Mitch Marsh selection? Because the guys who did that also work daily in the field and would have had justification for it.
 

DemonTim

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The answers to all your queries are in the link, if you click on it. Does the ball only get old once Khawaja gets out?

Not my point. Were you happy with the Mitch Marsh selection? Because the guys who did that also work daily in the field and would have had justification for it.
Again, that's not what was said. The justification was provided and logical. He explained the justification to me. I have never said "I trust them even if their justification is false". You're trying to palm it off as appeal to authority. When it's simply not, it's authority presenting logic. What was the justification behind marsh? I'll tell you if I agree to it then.

The link only gives his career stats actually. It answers exactly 0 of my queries.

If you're in such disagreement with the coaches at cricket Victoria can you provide evidence. Can you show khawaja plays the old ball well? That he plays spin well? That he is a better choice to bat at 6?

My best mates a district cricketer (well was. They may be relegated), and he said you're so far off the mark it's not funny. He said to ask if you'd pick langer at 6 over Hussey?
 

Sando22

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Hardly. If we're advocating horses for courses, which you appear to be, then this is exactly the same principle. And if you're a fan of horses for courses, you're not really advocating for a settled dressing room. Seems rather contradictory to me.
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Cannon82

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Again, that's not what was said. The justification was provided and logical. He explained the justification to me. I have never said "I trust them even if their justification is false". You're trying to palm it off as appeal to authority. When it's simply not, it's authority presenting logic. What was the justification behind marsh? I'll tell you if I agree to it then.

The link only gives his career stats actually. It answers exactly 0 of my queries.

If you're in such disagreement with the coaches at cricket Victoria can you provide evidence. Can you show khawaja plays the old ball well? That he plays spin well? That he is a better choice to bat at 6?

My best mates a district cricketer (well was. They may be relegated), and he said you're so far off the mark it's not funny. He said to ask if you'd pick langer at 6 over Hussey?
Link comes up as per the picture below for me. Tells you where, when, how many, how long, etc. You pick some arbitrary figure for when the ball is old, and apply it to that innings list. Let me know how you go. I'd say the ball will be "old" after two odd hours, depending on the deck.

All you've said is "my coaching mate / cricket mate" said this. Whatever vast array of evidence and authority you received isn't transferring through your posts.

Batting List.JPG
 

DemonTim

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Mate just sent me a good link. Langer only once batted below 4, and that was at 7. His average at 4 was his worst.

Khawaja has batted at 6 3 times with a high score of 26 and an average of 20.

Clarke shouldn't be in the list since he played his best crickey at 5th statistically. And played the most innings there.

Hussey played his best cricket at 5/6 statistically (and only opened 8 times in his career). Spent most of his career at 4.

Ponting is the only one who slightly supports you. But outside opening he played his most innings at 6. (Also played at 7 and 9 and his stats are s**t for it.
 

DemonTim

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Link comes up as per the picture below for me. Tells you where, when, how many, how long, etc. You pick some arbitrary figure for when the ball is old, and apply it to that innings list. Let me know how you go. I'd say the ball will be "old" after two odd hours, depending on the deck.

All you've said is "my coaching mate / cricket mate" said this. Whatever vast array of evidence and authority you received isn't transferring through your posts.

View attachment 347942
He said that khawaja doesn't play spin well, struggles with the old ball and once the deck worsens because he can't handle the unpredictable movement. Your response is "yeah but look at his last 10 innings".

As above statistically he's very very down when batting lower in the order.

Even that screenshot doesn't show who bowled, when he went out, etc. it does show that his highest score on the sub continent is 26 though...and that his only big scores bar one are in Australia (and that was in NZ) Your stats don't even back you up...
 

Cannon82

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He said that khawaja doesn't play spin well, struggles with the old ball and once the deck worsens because he can't handle the unpredictable movement. Your response is "yeah but look at his last 10 innings".

As above statistically he's very very down when batting lower in the order.

Even that screenshot doesn't show who bowled, when he went out, etc. it does show that his highest score on the sub continent is 26 though...and that his only big scores bar one are in Australia (and that was in NZ) Your stats don't even back you up...
If you want to look at the finer details, click on his profile, go down to the stats area and pull up 'batting innings list' from the Test statistics list. You can click on every test he's played in and have a look for yourself, if you're so inclined.

Three innings for Australia at 6, all in Sri Lanka: 21, 26 and 13*. Just the six years ago, that tour was. "Very, very down" with his average of 30, eh? Had a bad couple of tests in Sri Lanka at the end of last year, but looking at those two tests, he certainly wasn't alone there. Davey Warner still seems to have gotten picked.

My "stats" show he's batted for a long time in a lot of his last 10 innings. Must've been some good quality rocks not getting old in all that time. A bloke averaging 48 in tests with a fairly drab strike rate is useless against spin and can't face old nuts. Show me a batsman who does like worsening decks and unpredictable movement. Your mate is a treasure. What are my stats supposed to be showing, by the way? My argument this whole time is he's in our best 6 bats on form and so should be playing, or at least given the opportunity to fail before getting unceremoniously turfed.
 
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DemonTim

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If you want to look at the finer details, click on his profile, go down to the stats area and pull up 'batting innings list' from the Test statistics list. You can click on every test he's played in and have a look for yourself, if you're so inclined.

Three innings for Australia at 6, all in Sri Lanka: 21, 26 and 13*. Just the six years ago, that tour was. "Very, very down" with his average of 30, eh? Had a bad couple of tests in Sri Lanka at the end of last year, but looking at those two tests, he certainly wasn't alone there. Davey Warner still seems to have gotten picked.

My "stats" show he's batted for a long time in a lot of his last 10 innings. Must've been some good quality rocks not getting old in all that time. A bloke averaging 48 in tests with a fairly drab strike rate is useless against spin and can't face old nuts. Show me a batsman who does like worsening decks and unpredictable movement. Your mate is a treasure. What are my stats supposed to be showing, by the way? My argument this whole time is he's in our best 6 bats on form and so should be playing, or at least given the opportunity to fail before getting unceremonially turfed.
Jesus Christ. Victim complex? You get that this happens every test yeah. A player gets left out. Why take maxwell in your eyes? Don't need him, since you just bat khawaja in any spot.

You're the one making claims about him being robbed, now you're telling me to check his stats to confirm your theory?

His average at 6 is 20. 3 innings for 60 runs. 20 is "very very down" on an average of 48, yes.

The blokes on a contract with cricket australia, and gets played in places he doesn't struggle. Yeah Warner struggles with spin too, that's been pointed out, but you realise Warner has a lot more credits in the bank and is a lot better than any replacement.

Obviously batsmen PREFER easier decks with predictable movement. No one is saying any batsmen would choose it. Just that some can actually play it, and others can't. Khawaja can't. Coaches say this, anyone who has any semblance of cricket knowledge agrees. Are you claiming there's some other reason he's not selected? Marsh was in because they stupidly thought he could play spin well, because he occasionally has.

So khawaja should have gotten a chance, to bat out of position, even though we had another guy there who bats in that position over there. A guy who plays spin well, but khawaja should be in, despite that being a shortcoming of his. Because unless you play khawaja in a position he doesn't play, you're "dumping him".

"Guys. Don't play maxwell in his batting position. Let's play khawaja out of position and give him the chance to fu** up playing out of position, otherwise it's unfair"

Let's ignore that khawaja averages half when playing overseas, and let's ignore the times he played in relevant areas for the discussion. Let's just focus on how he scored well batting at 3 in Australia, that makes sense to play him at 6 outside Australia.

Maybe you could post some more about ex cricketers who don't even match your argument.
 

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Cannon82

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Jesus Christ. Victim complex? You get that this happens every test yeah. A player gets left out. Why take maxwell in your eyes? Don't need him, since you just bat khawaja in any spot.

You're the one making claims about him being robbed, now you're telling me to check his stats to confirm your theory?

His average at 6 is 20. 3 innings for 60 runs. 20 is "very very down" on an average of 48, yes.

The blokes on a contract with cricket australia, and gets played in places he doesn't struggle. Yeah Warner struggles with spin too, that's been pointed out, but you realise Warner has a lot more credits in the bank and is a lot better than any replacement.

Obviously batsmen PREFER easier decks with predictable movement. No one is saying any batsmen would choose it. Just that some can actually play it, and others can't. Khawaja can't. Coaches say this, anyone who has any semblance of cricket knowledge agrees. Are you claiming there's some other reason he's not selected? Marsh was in because they stupidly thought he could play spin well, because he occasionally has.

So khawaja should have gotten a chance, to bat out of position, even though we had another guy there who bats in that position over there. A guy who plays spin well, but khawaja should be in, despite that being a shortcoming of his. Because unless you play khawaja in a position he doesn't play, you're "dumping him".

"Guys. Don't play maxwell in his batting position. Let's play khawaja out of position and give him the chance to **** up playing out of position, otherwise it's unfair"

Let's ignore that khawaja averages half when playing overseas, and let's ignore the times he played in relevant areas for the discussion. Let's just focus on how he scored well batting at 3 in Australia, that makes sense to play him at 6 outside Australia.

Maybe you could post some more about ex cricketers who don't even match your argument.
Khawaja at 3, S.Marsh to 6. I don't know why you keep getting me confused on that argument.

60 / 2 = 30. There's a not out there.

I'd have been more interested in your Maxwell argument if you'd made it before the test. Brave words now.
 

Sando22

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Khawaja at 3, S.Marsh to 6. I don't know why you keep getting me confused on that argument.

60 / 2 = 30. There's a not out there.

I'd have been more interested in your Maxwell argument if you'd made it before the test. Brave words now.
But Marsh is a better no. 3 in India so no.
 

DemonTim

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Khawaja at 3, S.Marsh to 6. I don't know why you keep getting me confused on that argument.

60 / 2 = 30. There's a not out there.

I'd have been more interested in your Maxwell argument if you'd made it before the test. Brave words now.
I did make it before the test. I don't post every one of my thoughts on here. Said maxwell should've been in before marsh.

We are talking actual scores. He's MADE an average of 20 batting at 6. I dislike that not outs count for runs but not as "played". It's statistically stupid.

So we lose the all rounder spot completely, move the batting line up, just to fit khawaja in

Yeah. You either just love khawaja or hate maxwell. You're sooking that khawaja didn't get a chance. But when the actual spot that maxwell plays opens up, you want the team shifted so he doesn't get in.
 

DemonTim

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But Marsh is a better no. 3 in India so no.
It's a man crush.

Khawaja is great, in certain places and in certain positions. Just like maxwell, and Warner, and every other damn Australian cricketer. As they did (and seems 99% and the end result agree with) you play the person for the position and conditions

His argument makes zero sense "it's unfair. Move the team to give khawaja a chance at playing. Otherwise it's not right for him to be there" and "nah fu** maxwell. Who cares if he plays that position"
 

DemonTim

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Nope, I think he's got half-arsed footwork and a predilection for loosely wafting at deliveries outside off. Should be in the team on form though.

"Unfair". Well done to you if that's all you've taken out of this.
You've implied it numerous times

You wanted the side shifted around to fit him in and ignore any form except his most recent Australian form. Refuse to accept criticism of him, and just brush anything off as appeals to authority. Couple that with your suggestions of positions ex cricketers played and it's painting a clear picture
 

Cannon82

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I'd pick the current best 6 bats. Khawaja is in there. Really don't know why that is such a strange concept for you blokes. I can respect the fact you may disagree, but this idea that you are "right" is tosh. Bang on if you it makes you feel better.

Good on Maxwell for getting his ton, but he has 82 runs in 7 other test digs and 39 in 4 digs in India before this match. His first class average this year is 26. Wonderful player of spin, pace and everything in-between indeed. Add in the shocking revelation that a Victorian coach thinks a Victorian player should be in the Australian team and you've made a very compelling case indeed.
 

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I think a lot in the general public think:
Can bat = can bat anywhere in the team

It's not even slightly true
I agree. Batting is highly specialised. They're openers, top order and middle order and aside from the odd anomaly, few excel outside of their specialised position. Swap Matthew Hayden and Steve Waugh and both their performances suffer. I've seen statistics on game coverages so often showing different batsmen's averages at various places in the batting order and almost all are significantly stronger in one or two positions only. The only common exception to this is the explosive middle order bat who opens in the short forms.



It's no different to footy really
Spencer gets named emergency a fair bit. That doesn't mean he's good enough to play. But if something bad happens to Gawn we have to settle on that
A better comparison, I think, is dropping a bloke because he's no good in wet conditions. If he's no good then it's pointless having him as an emergency for a role that he can't fill competently. If Khawaja is as bad against spin as he's made out to be (and I'm not saying he isn't) then he should have been left home for someone who is a backup who can fill the role competently. That fits the horses for courses criteria more logically - and explains why he's on the tour with the logic Cricket Australia seemingly use for selection. :drunk:
 

DemonTim

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I'd pick the current best 6 bats. Khawaja is in there. Really don't know why that is such a strange concept for you blokes. I can respect the fact you may disagree, but this idea that you are "right" is tosh. Bang on if you it makes you feel better.

Good on Maxwell for getting his ton, but he has 82 runs in 7 other test digs and 39 in 4 digs in India before this match. His first class average this year is 26. Wonderful player of spin, pace and everything in-between indeed. Add in the shocking revelation that a Victorian coach thinks a Victorian player should be in the Australian team and you've made a very compelling case indeed.
It's much better than "but if you ignore everything except for his good scores and move the entire team around, fire 6 people, and play in a different continent then khawaja deserves to have the opportunity to fail again"

The Victorian coach actually wanted stoinis. Maxwell isn't exactly well liked around there at the moment. Any batter can bat at any point in the order
 

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