2016/17 Summer of Cricket - AUS vs India 2nd test- 4th innings

DemonTim

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Look we're going to have to agree to disagree.

Maxwell's attitude to his wicket and the way he plays is not, in my opinion, compatible with long term success in Test cricket. I'd still take a player with good technique who can improve, over a cowboy who has no other tools but to hit big.

As far as the averages go, the data is too incomplete to conclude anything. Maxwells scores are 4 years old, his dismissals when playing 6 (he opened for some of that tour) do not suggest he was trying to dig in or steady the ship. Khwaja's scores are terrible. But I believe the underlying player is a better long term prospect to improve and be more consistent.

Go dig out more stats if you like, but i think I've been fairly clear on what my opinions are and why i have them.
You're the one who said my stats showed something (I didn't even put any up at that point) they didn't.

Their stats are similar over there, ones stats against spin are worse, one failed there recently, one hasn't played there in four years

I'd prefer giving a guy a spot, who plays that spot, to give him the chance, than forcing a change, becuase someone who f’ed up over there recently "might get better"

As I said, it's just a dislike of Maxwell. You don't rate him and don't want him playing for Aus.
 

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Russian Demon

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You're the one who said my stats showed something (I didn't even put any up at that point) they didn't.

Their stats are similar over there, ones stats against spin are worse, one failed there recently, one hasn't played there in four years

I'd prefer giving a guy a spot, who plays that spot, to give him the chance, than forcing a change, becuase someone who ****** up over there recently "might get better"

As I said, it's just a dislike of Maxwell. You don't rate him and don't want him playing for Aus.
You're overestimating the effects of batsmen playing out of position and don't take into account the differences between short form and test cricket.


EDIT: If you're going to put something in quotation marks, then you need to actually quote what i said. Small point, but it stops sloppy assumptions.
 

DemonTim

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You're overestimating the effects of batsmen playing out of position and don't take into account the differences between short form and test cricket.


EDIT: If you're going to put something in quotation marks, then you need to actually quote what i said. Small point, but it stops sloppy assumptions.
I didn't attribute the quote, but it was a point of yours yes? That khawaja might improve and maxwell won't

I'm basing it on how players are actually coached. Everyone else just says 'nah mate. It's easy. Just shift positions'. Statistically and in reality it's not. Despite how many times people here claim it's easy.

So you basically feel maxwell won't improve, and don't want him given game time for that reason?
 

Russian Demon

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I didn't attribute the quote, but it was a point of yours yes? That khawaja might improve and maxwell won't

I'm basing it on how players are actually coached. Everyone else just says 'nah mate. It's easy. Just shift positions'. Statistically and in reality it's not. Despite how many times people here claim it's easy.

So you basically feel maxwell won't improve, and don't want him given game time for that reason?
Why put it in quotation marks then?

I feel that Maxwell doesn't have the right understanding of Test cricket to be part of a team. If he's going to play 6, he needs to be able to adjust to a bunch of different roles. Because playing at 6 changes depending on the match.

I didn't disagree that players are better when settled. I simply argued that in some cases its the lesser of two evils. And I argued that it is when Maxwell is concerned. The last part might be a stretch, but I'd rather have a test team playing the right way and losing short term, than throwing in glorified T20 players and us losing long term.
 

DemonTim

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Why put it in quotation marks then?

I feel that Maxwell doesn't have the right understanding of Test cricket to be part of a team. If he's going to play 6, he needs to be able to adjust to a bunch of different roles. Because playing at 6 changes depending on the match.

I didn't disagree that players are better when settled. I simply argued that in some cases its the lesser of two evils. And I argued that it is when Maxwell is concerned. The last part might be a stretch, but I'd rather have a test team playing the right way and losing short term, than throwing in glorified T20 players and us losing long term.
Because I clicked the wrong "/'? Are you really taking offense to a quotation mark that wasn't even directly attributed to you?

Wasn't this same s**t said about Warner? (Not comparing the two) so he's had 8 innings and made a ton in one, but we should write him off? Isn't his shield average at 6 in the mid twenties? What are the other players we are looking at to play 6 averages? Do you want the all rounder spot dropped?

So you're saying if we ignore what actually happened, and predict based on what he did in 2014, he shouldn't ever play for Aus?
Cricket Aus should terminate his contract then, yes?
 

Russian Demon

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Because I clicked the wrong "/'? Are you really taking offense to a quotation mark that wasn't even directly attributed to you?

Wasn't this same s**t said about Warner? (Not comparing the two) so he's had 8 innings and made a ton in one, but we should write him off? Isn't his shield average at 6 in the mid twenties? What are the other players we are looking at to play 6 averages? Do you want the all rounder spot dropped?

So you're saying if we ignore what actually happened, and predict based on what he did in 2014, he shouldn't ever play for Aus?
Cricket Aus should terminate his contract then, yes?
Calm down, I'm not taking offense at anything, I was only asking why in case I had missed something.

Warner isn't my favourite either for similar reasons, but he's successful enough often enough. He's also got the runs in the bank over a long period of time at Test level, and is supported by 4 guys below him who don't play in the same way and can pick up the slack when Warner goes out cheap. He's also been able to slow down and build an innings when his partners go out in quick succession. I think the selectors have acknowledged that Warner isn't a traditional opener in that regard. I agree when Warner came in he didn't look much chop. But we had the luxury of doing that when we had veterans batting deep in the order and were winning easily against New Zealand.

In terms of the all rounder.... yeah i think i would axe it. Personally i think an all rounder is a luxury you get when your batting and bowling line ups are both pretty good across the 5 players. The only ones who have every been truly worthwhile have been world class batters AND bowlers - Jaques Kallis for instance. Putting in somebody who is sub par at both just for the flexibility is to me a waste of a spot. But thats just my personal take.

And Maxwell? I'd tear his Test contract up tomorrow. He's shown at 1 day level he can't reign it in to control an innings, so why would anyone believe he can do it at test level? He'll be a rich man swinging the willow in 1 dayers and T20. Some people just don't have what it takes for a long career in tests.
 

DemonTim

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Calm down, I'm not taking offense at anything, I was only asking why in case I had missed something.

Warner isn't my favourite either for similar reasons, but he's successful enough often enough. He's also got the runs in the bank over a long period of time at Test level, and is supported by 4 guys below him who don't play in the same way and can pick up the slack when Warner goes out cheap. He's also been able to slow down and build an innings when his partners go out in quick succession. I think the selectors have acknowledged that Warner isn't a traditional opener in that regard. I agree when Warner came in he didn't look much chop. But we had the luxury of doing that when we had veterans batting deep in the order and were winning easily against New Zealand.

In terms of the all rounder.... yeah i think i would axe it. Personally i think an all rounder is a luxury you get when your batting and bowling line ups are both pretty good across the 5 players. The only ones who have every been truly worthwhile have been world class batters AND bowlers - Jaques Kallis for instance. Putting in somebody who is sub par at both just for the flexibility is to me a waste of a spot. But thats just my personal take.

And Maxwell? I'd tear his Test contract up tomorrow. He's shown at 1 day level he can't reign it in to control an innings, so why would anyone believe he can do it at test level? He'll be a rich man swinging the willow in 1 dayers and T20. Some people just don't have what it takes for a long career in tests.
I'm calm. Tone doesn't translate. It came off as you were pissy at a punctuation error

I'm not talking about Warner now. When he started his test career. The same s**t was said. He improved drastically over the years. If we took the logic you're using now Warner would never have played test cricket again

We are going to be keeping an all rounder. That much seems obvious. They work. Just not with smith as captain.

Why would we assume maxwell can't improve, but khawaja can? Khawaja has had a lot longer to fix his game overseas and against movement (as has Warner)
 

Russian Demon

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I'm calm. Tone doesn't translate. It came off as you were pissy at a punctuation error

I'm not talking about Warner now. When he started his test career. The same s**t was said. He improved drastically over the years. If we took the logic you're using now Warner would never have played test cricket again

We are going to be keeping an all rounder. That much seems obvious. They work. Just not with smith as captain.

Why would we assume maxwell can't improve, but khawaja can? Khawaja has had a lot longer to fix his game overseas and against movement (as has Warner)
Like i said i was trying to understand why you were using quotation marks and not copying the text i wrote. I only ever see it done like that on the main board when people are trying to be condescending.

Maybe you're right with Khawaja, to be honest it wouldn't surprise me. But i see an ability to adapt and be patient in Khawaja that I don't in Maxwell. And whilst test scores may have gone up due to the more aggressive play, i remember watching tests by Australia in recent where players didn't have the patience to build their innings and we lost where we maybe didn't need to. Personally, I'd rather us take players who have that and try to build the right culture that gives longer term success. There are plenty of other problems, like you said, Smith's captaincy - obviously hates Maxwell as much as I do - bowlers breaking down ect.

I know a lot gets lost in text, but as far as I'm concerned we're just discussing a selection in cricket that we have differing opinions on.
 

DemonTim

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Like i said i was trying to understand why you were using quotation marks and not copying the text i wrote. I only ever see it done like that on the main board when people are trying to be condescending.

Maybe you're right with Khawaja, to be honest it wouldn't surprise me. But i see an ability to adapt and be patient in Khawaja that I don't in Maxwell. And whilst test scores may have gone up due to the more aggressive play, i remember watching tests by Australia in recent where players didn't have the patience to build their innings and we lost where we maybe didn't need to. Personally, I'd rather us take players who have that and try to build the right culture that gives longer term success. There are plenty of other problems, like you said, Smith's captaincy - obviously hates Maxwell as much as I do - bowlers breaking down ect.

I know a lot gets lost in text, but as far as I'm concerned we're just discussing a selection in cricket that we have differing opinions on.
But that was the main issue with Warner. People said when he started in tests that he'd never make it. No patience, only fits short form etc etc etc. if we go by everything you've said Warner never makes it, and is ditched

My main issue has been people saying it's simple to play players out of position. Which is just factually wrong and goes against how they are coached and managed.
 

Russian Demon

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But that was the main issue with Warner. People said when he started in tests that he'd never make it. No patience, only fits short form etc etc etc. if we go by everything you've said Warner never makes it, and is ditched

My main issue has been people saying it's simple to play players out of position. Which is just factually wrong and goes against how they are coached and managed.

Yep, definitely not simple, and usually not desirable. But sometimes necessary.

Warner is a pretty rare specimen in Test cricket. In another age, he would have been shown the door.
 

DemonTim

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Yep, definitely not simple, and usually not desirable. But sometimes necessary.

Warner is a pretty rare specimen in Test cricket. In another age, he would have been shown the door.
Yep, but I think patience is required at times. Most of our current test players have had deficiences they needed to work on

Maxwell just comes across as a ******* so people don't want him given the chance.
 

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Russian Demon

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Yep, but I think patience is required at times. Most of our current test players have had deficiences they needed to work on

Maxwell just comes across as a ******* so people don't want him given the chance.
Thats true.... but part of that nature is why he can't do what I think is the most important thing in a Test team.... mould your game depending on circumstances.
 

DemonTim

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Thats true.... but part of that nature is why he can't do what I think is the most important thing in a Test team.... mould your game depending on circumstances.
He's a smug prick and s**ts me, but one thing he does is work on his mistakes, when he's not overseas he's training at an indoor centre in melb from about 3:30am before heading to vics training. He's putting in the effort, it'll just depend on whether he can make the changes needed.

I don't know too many test players who were great at picking the circumstances that early on (renshaw is one, but he plays his game the same every time)
 

Topkent

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To sort of change tact
Steve Smith rolled into the side at 8 and clubbed a half century in a losing ashes test in Australia and that was the day i knew he would make it
It was unorthodox and I certainly wouldn't have guessed he'd average 60 but it showed he had a brilliant eye
Same as maxwell, just needs to work on a defensive technique that allows him to attack the right balls like smith's shuffle across the stumps
 

Klyntonius

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I just can't agree with this, you say ponting moved up the order because he was the teams best batsmen. He moved up to a harder position. No one moves down to 6 because of its difficulty
You can't use a FF and FB as an analogy because they have literally the opposite jobs.
Why is 3 the hardest position if all positions are the same? And it's only logical to play your best batsman in the hardest spot.
I use FF and FB as the analogy because they have specific skillsets, the same as batsmen. And they have the same job - beat their opponent.



It sounds like you don't rate Ussie about as much as i don't rate Maxwell.

I agree Ussie can't play spin very well. As you pointed out the numbers reflect that. However like said above, the nuumbers don't support Maxwell either... in fact they are more damning. Add to that that his style is an all or nothing style. If a grinding innings needed to be played, he would throw his wicket away regardless of the team position.

In terms of batting order, yes there are different skill sets which make some better at certain positions than others. And generally higher order can only really be handled consistently by more skillful players. But its not that hard to switch around if you have the skills. Ussie can play at 6 - on average he'll be worse if the top order fires, but better if they collapse as he's a proper batsman - but Maxwell sure as hell can't open.

Gilly went from number 7 to opening in times of great need in Tests. He could have opened for Australia full time had we not had 2 of the greatest openers in a generation.
I don't think Maxwell should have been on the tour much less selected for a test match so I agree wholeheartedly that his opportunity was undeserved. Be that as it may, he took the opportunity presented to him and made the most of it. My hope now is that he's like Michael Clarke and Steve Smith and proves the selectors faith was well founded despite prior records suggesting they weren't worthy rather than following in the footsteps of Mitch Marsh and Nic Maddinson.



No one seems to be able to answer why if Khawaja is so diabolical against spin (which I've never disagreed with) why he was even brought on tour then
Same reason Mitch Marsh was selected I guess. Selectors throwing darts at a board.
 

Klyntonius

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To sort of change tact
Steve Smith rolled into the side at 8 and clubbed a half century in a losing ashes test in Australia and that was the day i knew he would make it
It was unorthodox and I certainly wouldn't have guessed he'd average 60 but it showed he had a brilliant eye
Same as maxwell, just needs to work on a defensive technique that allows him to attack the right balls like smith's shuffle across the stumps
Yeah, I had Smith pegged as nothing more than a pie chucking slogger but he's worked and improved to become the world's leading batsman. I see Maxwell very much as I saw Smith, hopefully he follows Smudge's lead and becomes a very good player for Australia.
 

Cannon82

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Why is 3 the hardest position if all positions are the same? And it's only logical to play your best batsman in the hardest spot.
Top 3 is "the hardest" because you face the new rock in normal conditions. The most talented bats or those with the best temperaments get those fun gigs as they're best equipped to deal with the moving pill.

What's the difference in the skillset between 3 and 5? Don't play at it if you don't need to, play straight, put the loose ones away. The way you approach your innings is (should be) the same no matter where you bat. If you're 4/20, lower order bats are expected to do what the openers do, and ditto if it's 0/100 the openers are expected to start cashing in and scoring more freely.
 

Russian Demon

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Why is 3 the hardest position if all positions are the same? And it's only logical to play your best batsman in the hardest spot.
I use FF and FB as the analogy because they have specific skillsets, the same as batsmen. And they have the same job - beat their opponent.





I don't think Maxwell should have been on the tour much less selected for a test match so I agree wholeheartedly that his opportunity was undeserved. Be that as it may, he took the opportunity presented to him and made the most of it. My hope now is that he's like Michael Clarke and Steve Smith and proves the selectors faith was well founded despite prior records suggesting they weren't worthy rather than following in the footsteps of Mitch Marsh and Nic Maddinson.





Same reason Mitch Marsh was selected I guess. Selectors throwing darts at a board.

If Maxwell is half the player Smith, Warner or Clarke are, I will eat my hat. Hes a FIGJAM who doesn't get it at test level. I'm not saying he doesn't work hard. He's just too much of a moron to get it.
 

Klyntonius

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Top 3 is "the hardest" because you face the new rock in normal conditions. The most talented bats or those with the best temperaments get those fun gigs as they're best equipped to deal with the moving pill.

What's the difference in the skillset between 3 and 5? Don't play at it if you don't need to, play straight, put the loose ones away. The way you approach your innings is (should be) the same no matter where you bat. If you're 4/20, lower order bats are expected to do what the openers do, and ditto if it's 0/100 the openers are expected to start cashing in and scoring more freely.
No difference in playing different positions.

Michael Clarke: Position - Avg - Innings
4 - 30.61 - 62
5 - 60.81 - 110

Greg Blewett
3 - 27.69 - 26
6 - 39.38 - 28

AB de Villiers
1/2 - 36.14 - 35
5 - 61.43 - 71
6 - 52.04 - 50

Simon Katich
1/2 - 50.48 - 61
6 - 36.05 - 21

You're talking in theory, not reality. It's very hard to find batsmen who have played multiple positions with any regularity at all, let alone successfully. The ones who have been successful are considered amongst the greatest f all time. It's not as easy as you think.


If Maxwell is half the player Smith, Warner or Clarke are, I will eat my hat. Hes a FIGJAM who doesn't get it at test level. I'm not saying he doesn't work hard. He's just too much of a moron to get it.
I don't like him much either, especially after his sook this summer, nor am I convinced he will be anything like those guys. I hope he does make it though because we need a decent number 6 bat.
 

Cannon82

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No difference in playing different positions.

Michael Clarke: Position - Avg - Innings
4 - 30.61 - 62
5 - 60.81 - 110

Greg Blewett
3 - 27.69 - 26
6 - 39.38 - 28

AB de Villiers
1/2 - 36.14 - 35
5 - 61.43 - 71
6 - 52.04 - 50

Simon Katich
1/2 - 50.48 - 61
6 - 36.05 - 21

You're talking in theory, not reality. It's very hard to find batsmen who have played multiple positions with any regularity at all, let alone successfully. The ones who have been successful are considered amongst the greatest f all time. It's not as easy as you think.
No one is saying you should be able to average 50 opening the batting if you average 50 at 6. Batting in the top 3 is harder because generally they're facing the new rock against fresh bowlers. You'd expect the average to increase further down with a few more not outs and more favourable batting conditions. I'd expect someone to average 10 or so less batting further up the order. Doesn't mean they're not doing a job.

Hussey's stats - moved around the order to accommodate others despite being arguably our best bat during that period.
1st position 2005-2005 2 2 1 60 31* 60.00 147 40.81 0 0 0 5 0
2nd position 2005-2008 5 6 0 327 137 54.50 683 47.87 1 1 0 40 0
4th position 2006-2010 37 62 7 2531 146 46.01 5461 46.34 7 14 7 291 8
5th position 2005-2013 25 38 5 1978 195 59.93 3729 53.04 6 9 3 214 17
6th position 2005-2012 18 26 2 1242 150* 51.75 2243 55.37 5 4 2 125 13
7th position 2012-2012 3 3 1 97 54 48.50 173 56.06 0 1 0 10 1

Katich's stats - he came back in his second stint a better player. Let's not pretend that's purely down to his position in the order.
2nd position 2008-2010 33 61 3 2928 157 50.48 5935 49.33 8 17 2 335 6
3rd position 2004-2004 3 5 1 259 99 64.75 515 50.29 0 2 0 29 0
4th position 2004-2004 1 1 0 9 9 9.00 47 19.14 0 0 0 0 0
5th position 2004-2005 4 7 0 39 17 5.57 112 34.82 0 0 2 3 0
6th position 2001-2005 13 21 2 685 125 36.05 1292 53.01 1 5 0 89 1
7th position 2003-2005 4 4 0 268 118 67.00 582 46.04 1 1 0 34 2

De Villiers' stats - likewise the bloke hit his straps in his mid to late 20s and piled on the runs.
1st position 2004-2007 16 18 0 689 114 38.27 1335 51.61 2 4 0 90 3
2nd position 2004-2008 16 17 0 576 178 33.88 1171 49.18 1 2 0 76 1
3rd position 2010-2012 2 2 0 93 68 46.50 78 119.23 0 1 0 9 1
4th position 2009-2016 7 11 0 423 88 38.45 1044 40.51 0 2 3 54 3
5th position 2006-2015 51 71 10 3747 278* 61.42 6742 55.57 13 15 3 405 41
6th position 2005-2013 40 50 4 2394 217* 52.04 4394 54.48 5 14 1 276 7
7th position 2004-2008 5 5 1 90 46 22.50 155 58.06 0 0 0 12 1
8th position 2004-2005 2 2 1 62 52* 62.00 103 60.19 0 1 0 11 0
 

Klyntonius

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No one is saying you should be able to average 50 opening the batting if you average 50 at 6. Batting in the top 3 is harder because generally they're facing the new rock against fresh bowlers. You'd expect the average to increase further down with a few more not outs and more favourable batting conditions. I'd expect someone to average 10 or so less batting further up the order. Doesn't mean they're not doing a job.

Hussey's stats - moved around the order to accommodate others despite being arguably our best bat during that period.
1st position 2005-2005 2 2 1 60 31* 60.00 147 40.81 0 0 0 5 0
2nd position 2005-2008 5 6 0 327 137 54.50 683 47.87 1 1 0 40 0
4th position 2006-2010 37 62 7 2531 146 46.01 5461 46.34 7 14 7 291 8
5th position 2005-2013 25 38 5 1978 195 59.93 3729 53.04 6 9 3 214 17
6th position 2005-2012 18 26 2 1242 150* 51.75 2243 55.37 5 4 2 125 13
7th position 2012-2012 3 3 1 97 54 48.50 173 56.06 0 1 0 10 1

Katich's stats - he came back in his second stint a better player. Let's not pretend that's purely down to his position in the order.
2nd position 2008-2010 33 61 3 2928 157 50.48 5935 49.33 8 17 2 335 6
3rd position 2004-2004 3 5 1 259 99 64.75 515 50.29 0 2 0 29 0
4th position 2004-2004 1 1 0 9 9 9.00 47 19.14 0 0 0 0 0
5th position 2004-2005 4 7 0 39 17 5.57 112 34.82 0 0 2 3 0
6th position 2001-2005 13 21 2 685 125 36.05 1292 53.01 1 5 0 89 1
7th position 2003-2005 4 4 0 268 118 67.00 582 46.04 1 1 0 34 2

De Villiers' stats - likewise the bloke hit his straps in his mid to late 20s and piled on the runs.
1st position 2004-2007 16 18 0 689 114 38.27 1335 51.61 2 4 0 90 3
2nd position 2004-2008 16 17 0 576 178 33.88 1171 49.18 1 2 0 76 1
3rd position 2010-2012 2 2 0 93 68 46.50 78 119.23 0 1 0 9 1
4th position 2009-2016 7 11 0 423 88 38.45 1044 40.51 0 2 3 54 3
5th position 2006-2015 51 71 10 3747 278* 61.42 6742 55.57 13 15 3 405 41
6th position 2005-2013 40 50 4 2394 217* 52.04 4394 54.48 5 14 1 276 7
7th position 2004-2008 5 5 1 90 46 22.50 155 58.06 0 0 0 12 1
8th position 2004-2005 2 2 1 62 52* 62.00 103 60.19 0 1 0 11 0
- I mentioned Hussey's as an anomaly already.

- Yeah, you're right about Katich. I thought he moved to opener in Shield but it appears he still played in the middle order there ( first class info I found difficult to find) so he did a phenomenal job to adjust from the middle to opener so well, especially that late in his career.

- AB averaged 66 @ 5 (only 4 innings) and nearly 48 @ 6 (26 innings) from 04-08 so he's always been a superior middle order batsman.
 

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Fourth test is shaping up as another cracker. Australia in front by 52 runs but India still 4 wickets in hand. Lyon returns to form as the chief destroyer with 4 wickets and 1 each for the quicks. Based on the last test, India could yet eke out a lead and put us under real pressure but hopefully we can skittle 'em early and see our top order fire and build a good second innings lead.

Also, the Shield final is under way between Victoria and South Australia in Alice Springs. The Vics have got off to a good start chasing their third straight title, finishing day one 3 for 322. They had an opening partnership of 224 with Marcus Harris tonning up and Travis Dean scoring 94. Chadd Sayers continues his stellar season with 2 wickets for South Australia.
 

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