2016 Non-Crows AFL Discussion - Cont. in Part 2 (link in OP)

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Bovo

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I think it is fair to have a swipe at the AFL's handling of this situation. More so how it handled the EFC. They punished Essendon long before all the facts were available and now when a bigger and harsher penalty is due they are hiding behind their original punishment.

In regards to their handling of the players....I think they treated it more like a court of law. Without enough evidence how can they put their hand on their heart and say guilty? Even if they did find them guilty the punishment would have been a couple of months backdated from when they did not play in the preseason games. But you also have to put all this into perspective. How many sporting codes have been put in a position like this one? The AFL had never (and hopefully never again) been put in this position. This was over their head. Treating it like a law court was probably the only thing they knew.

WADA on the other hand is a seasoned systematic organisation whose primary job is to do what they did to Essendon as required. The AFL is not. It definitely shows the AFL has some maturing to do, but again you need to consider their experience in this matter....which was 0.

I feel for the fans in all of this.
 

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adelaidecrows

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It will be awkward when dyson heppell sues essendon and is playing for them next year
Players may choose to exercise their rights of walking out on the club using the same clause Ryder was going to use if Essendon refused to trade him. Put it this way, I would be surprised if anymore than 6 of the 12 Essendon players went back to the club. The club completely screwed them.
 

Jeffcrowe

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While I get everybody's negativity toward the AFL that loves to micro manage its own disasters to suit itself I don't really understand what people expect in terms of further punishment for Essendon

Sure it appears in some ways they have got off a little light with draft sanctions etc but realistically this is going to effect them for more than 10 years

They are going to be a basket case , they will be worse that Carlton were post salary cap / John Elliott sanctions , they will be more broke , no one will want to play there , good players won't go there , expect a further exodus of current players etc etc

This isn't done yet and he ramifications will be ongoing .... Previous admins fault and now the club needs to lie in its own bed and suffer the next decade but not sure if there is any more penalising that needs to be done as the club won't exist ... They have to be given a chance to come back from this for the half a million + bombers supporters out there who will be lost to football otherwise

Still can't believe that worsfold took the job on , never understood at the time and still don't .... At least there is no pressure to perform I guess
 

adelaidecrows

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I'm confused about Dustin when drug reports first came out I thought he didn't take any as he believed that he already had been playing well for a long time and didn't need anything extra.
Yet he was on the list.
Is it believe he didn't take all supplements and stopped early?

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I heard that too. However before the official naming of players I also heard Monfries had nothing to worry about either. I think people made a lot of assumptions. If recovery was part of the benefits of TB4 then it makes sense for old man fletch to put his hand up for a needle.
 

adelaidecrows

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Did I hear correctly this morning that Kochie said taking the Brownlow from Watson would be difficult because "they're such a well known family" ?
I didn't hear it or the context his comments were made but reading them dry from how you wrote it I don't think he meant he should keep it, he just means it would be a difficult thing to do in general.
 

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How long before an ex player comes out & reveals everything that went on back then in 2012 under the watchful eyes of the Essendon coaching/medical staff.
Kyle Reimers tried that and McVeigh and his mates in the media absolutely vilified him. There are too many powerful media people with Essendon connections.
 

Bovo

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While I get everybody's negativity toward the AFL that loves to micro manage its own disasters to suit itself I don't really understand what people expect in terms of further punishment for Essendon

Sure it appears in some ways they have got off a little light with draft sanctions etc but realistically this is going to effect them for more than 10 years

They are going to be a basket case , they will be worse that Carlton were post salary cap / John Elliott sanctions , they will be more broke , no one will want to play there , good players won't go there , expect a further exodus of current players etc etc

This isn't done yet and he ramifications will be ongoing .... Previous admins fault and now the club needs to lie in its own bed and suffer the next decade but not sure if there is any more penalising that needs to be done as the club won't exist ... They have to be given a chance to come back from this for the half a million + bombers supporters out there who will be lost to football otherwise

Still can't believe that worsfold took the job on , never understood at the time and still don't .... At least there is no pressure to perform I guess
At the point in time when the AFL originally punished Essendon they did not have all the facts. It was a slap on the wrist. This original punishment should have been harsher. How can the AFL play down a club that was injecting substances into young kids....who were naively being treated like lab rats? It is sooo unethical that it really makes me angry.

The ramifications of Essendons pigheaded denials of wrongdoing has caused the latter of your statement. They brought it on themselves. However the AFL should punish further based on all the facts.

Your argument could be compared to when two young kids drink and drive and have an accident. One kid (none driver) dies. Other kid has to live with the mistake forever and will be punishing himself internally. Court will still get involved and send driver to jail on top of his own guilt.

It is not about destroying the Bombers it is about the AFL being an authoritive body and making the tough calls.

For a moment forget everything that has happened now and just go back to the original punishment the AFL gave the Bombers. Do you believe that it was the correct?
 

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NikkiNoo

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Time to try again.

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I just edited to add that there are too many powerful media people who are Essendon connected. One of the top Murdoch executives is a bestie with James Hird. The head of Fox Footy - Essendon coterie member.
 

adelaidecrows

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Kyle Reimers tried that and McVeigh and his mates in the media absolutely vilified him.
Reimers would have a case for defamation IMO.

I suspect a player or two will write a tell all book once all the involved players careers are over and they are out of the AFL industry for good.
 

NikkiNoo

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Reimers would have a case for defamation IMO.

I suspect a player or two will write a tell all book once all the involved players careers are over and they are out of the AFL industry for good.
Not if they wanted to be accepted back to Essendon. I hope it does happen, but there is definitely some covering up going on / people are afraid to reveal stuff amongst Essendon. Only look at how they started trying to blame Dank. He came out into the media, made a few seemingly innocuous statements and Essendon immediately changed the message. Anytime he gets raised about being the only one responsible and being 'rogue', it is very likely that he is the one who leaks a little something to the press to shut them up again. Xavier Campbell found that out when he said something and then a few days later there were media reports about Campbell being injected with substances, that require a doctor's prescription, within the club. Not a good look for the new CEO.
 

Pdub

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Wowee

How did this get forgotten about!!

http://m.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/the-science-of-stephen-dank-20130823-2shhd.html

Even Dank admitted he gave them TB4 and the AFL tribunal wasn't satisfied
The Tribunal had to determine exactly which individuals took the drug and which ones didn't without any doubt, they were never asked to look into whether or not it was given to the group. The tribunal was about punishment to individual players, they were asked "did this player take an illegal substance?" for every player on the essendon list individually. They couldn't seperate the innocent from the guilty so everyone was found not guilty.
 

Rorys458

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My view is that Essendon have been punished, rightly or wrongly and they shouldn't get done twice. No doubt the AFL acted as they did to try and kill the issue but also to genuinely protect the finals in 2014. No doubt in objective terms Essendon's punishment is light but as some has pointed out, this incident will smash the club for years to come and I don't think anyone genuinely think Essendon going to the wall would be a good thing.

A club belongs to its supporters and admins and players are just custodians. No doubt the 2012-15 Essendon administration have acted appallingly and should be punished significantly. There needs to be light at the end of the tunnell for the Essendon supporters though, they will cop a massive whack from this, but hope of a new dawn eventually needs to be there.

This has been such a sorry saga. I still can't belive there are apologists out there for Dank and his dangerous and illegal drug cheating regime. Robbo's sympathy for Hird for example, is just mind boggling. The man has almost destroyed his football club and still plays the victim.
 

Elite Crow

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Only the end of it but on the Today show they said Hird has a speaking engagement charging $35 to hear his side on what happened.

I don't know if this was prearranged but it's off.
 

adelaidecrows

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Not if they wanted to be accepted back to Essendon. I hope it does happen, but there is definitely some covering up going on / people are afraid to reveal stuff amongst Essendon. Only look at how they started trying to blame Dank. He came out into the media, made a few seemingly innocuous statements and Essendon immediately changed the message. Anytime he gets raised about being the only one responsible and being 'rogue', it is very likely that he is the one who leaks a little something to the press to shut them up again. Xavier Campbell found that out when he said something and then a few days later there were media reports about Campbell being injected with substances, that require a doctor's prescription, within the club. Not a good look for the new CEO.
I did state once all players involved careers are over. The reality is money makes the world go round. It is not inconceivable for one of the 34 to be offered huge dollars with a ghost writer to produce a tell all book. I also wouldn't be surprised if it ends up being the biggest name, Jobe Watson and one appears at the end of this year. I agree with everything you are saying but that wont stop a book.
 

6BTS

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I have strong opinions relating to my ill feelings towards the AFL, ASADA Chief Ben McDevitt, ASADA, WADA, the Court of Arbitration for Sport, the AFL Tribunal, Dank, Hird, Essendon board.

I think I'll keep them to myself since I know what people are like here, but I will say this. The whole affair was handled badly and these WADA and ASADA muppets are desperately trying to pat each other on the back, declare this is a great moment in the fight for justice against drugs in sport and take enjoyment out of penalizing 34 players with a penalty similar to drug cheats who inject steroids for athletic competition like the Olympics by using circumstantial evidence. Justice was not done, what happened yesterday was vengeance.

They've left a massive stain on the reputation of Australian Rules Football and i bet they were all clinking champagne glasses together and laughing at dinner last night.
 

Barneythecrab

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Didn't we used to laugh at the "rabble" that is the NRL and bleet about how much substance and how well run our competition is. What a joke. Everyone involved in the AFL tribunals original decision needs to be publically named and then sacked. Gill and his cronies also need to go. This competition is a disgrace.
I don't feel like I can actually trust the AFL to make the correct and honest descions for the future of our sport. It seriously puts a massive dampener on the game at this level for me. Do they receive kick backs from team presidents to influence decision making i.e. Draft compensation, draw allocations, game time slots, major game day promotions, allocations of games such as Anzac Day etc etc. I would never leave the crowd but it honestly makes me feel like concentrating back onto the sanfl. I guess that is the problem. The AFL know we won't desert our clubs.
 

Redleg Crow

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Don't forget they get the opportunity to put games into all their kids which will hold them in good stead when the drug cheats return along with the number 1 pick. I also believe that Jab will return in 2017. Unlikely to get a gig in the media now or possibly even as an assistant. You don't turn down potentially $600k unless you can get it somewhere else.

FFS some Club bosses need to challenge this.
Not sure the opportunity to get games into their young kids is such an advantage. All clubs can do that, they don't because it means - like Essendon - they'll finish last. So it's only an advantage if you think playing 12 young players and coming last one year is worth it in the long run.
 

Jeffcrowe

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At the point in time when the AFL originally punished Essendon they did not have all the facts. It was a slap on the wrist. This original punishment should have been harsher. How can the AFL play down a club that was injecting substances into young kids....who were naively being treated like lab rats? It is sooo unethical that it really makes me angry.

The ramifications of Essendons pigheaded denials of wrongdoing has caused the latter of your statement. They brought it on themselves. However the AFL should punish further based on all the facts.

Your argument could be compared to when two young kids drink and drive and have an accident. One kid (none driver) dies. Other kid has to live with the mistake forever and will be punishing himself internally. Court will still get involved and send driver to jail on top of his own guilt.

It is not about destroying the Bombers it is about the AFL being an authoritive body and making the tough calls.

For a moment forget everything that has happened now and just go back to the original punishment the AFL gave the Bombers. Do you believe that it was the correct?
Of course it wasn't !!! Not suggesting it was , but don't worry Essendon will be punished .... They will be a basket case for many years

And yes the AFL was doing its usual micro management of such issues and not such a v good job of it ...., no doubt without all the facts they were timid and concerned re vilifying certain culprits and potential law suits , this is where they should have left it to the ' experts' like ASADA and kept things independent

My point is Essendon will not get off lightly now so don't worry about that , it will take a full generation until they are a force again if at all
 

rocket18

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They are going to be a basket case , they will be worse that Carlton were post salary cap / John Elliott sanctions , they will be more broke , no one will want to play there , good players won't go there , expect a further exodus of current players etc etc
A lot of people have expressed this sentiment, I really don't understand it.

Sure they are going to be ordinary this year but the 12 players are all available for 2017, fresh injury free ready to go. 1 or 2 may retire but most of them will rejoin Essendon - they are well and truly "welded on", if they were going to flip it would have happened already.

They also will have pick 1 and 19 in next years draft plus the 2 top 10 picks they had this year. Their one year of draft sanctions is long gone.

Players have already gone to them in the last few years with the black cloud overhead, now it is done and dusted they will have no trouble attracting players.

How exactly will they be worse than Carlton??
 

Jeffcrowe

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Not sure the opportunity to get games into their young kids is such an advantage. All clubs can do that, they don't because it means - like Essendon - they'll finish last. So it's only an advantage if you think playing 12 young players and coming last one year is worth it in the long run.
Could fast track a few careers and make those players stronger than what they would have been , could also end just as many careers prematurely
 
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