Resource 2017 AFL and AFLW Crowds and Ratings

[BringBackTorps]

errr....I didnt compare it to the mens.

AFLW is still very young and i watch a lot of womens sport. I think it can be way better. For example, my next line was



If anything, it is a comparison with other womens sport and what is to come in the future. It is comparing the average AFLW player with the best and seeing the massive gap between the 2.

Not once did i mention that AFLW team would lose to an under 14 regional side and then USE that as a way to deman the women and the league. Do you see the difference between the two?

The simple fact of this is that we have heard a lot of from current players playing AFLW say that they couldn't continue to play AR because there was nowhere for them to play. Even now, the footing of AR for women in my state is very very shaky(or in other words, poorly run) to use an example. the RL are going the slow route for example and trying to build from the bottom. But i already said that the AFL was correct with the steps it took regarding the founding of AFLW and women in the game.

EDIT: I will state again that i dont care much for womens/men comparisons when they dont play each other. Please read the above example when i do as an example and not an attack on the AFLW.

The AFLW in 2017 was in its first year -no one should predict/expect standards to be high.

You said "I think the average standard was very poor from the LITTLE I watched". An informed opinion...not. Your obvious reference was men's AF.

What was the average standard of W League players when it commenced? And in 2017?

Do you intend to directly answer my question above, in my previous post ie where /when have you castigated commentators from other codes who made derogatory comments about the AFLW, comparing it to men's AF?

 

[BringBackTorps]

There is plenty of gender based criticism of AFLW to be rejected. This does not make the AFLW above criticism. Criticism of absolute performance is both valid and necessary. Freo coach Cowan said AFLW disposal efficiency was low 50s, which is not good enough.

Saying AFLW performance was not good is valid, it's saying this is inherently because the players are female, not because of a lack of experience/high level training/depth etc.

I am not denying the AFLW skill standard can't be criticised, nor it should not be improved. IMO, the AFLW average skill level in its first year was OK.

We must be very careful & discriminating when criticising "absolute performance". There is a reason AF was invented as a winter game!
The AFLW was often played above 24 degrees -causing sweat/lotion running into & stinging eyes, which obviously affects skill levels & disposal efficiency. Strong heat also produces fatigue,which will affect skill levels.
In an aerial game played during the summer daytime, players could also be "blinded" more often going for a mark -affecting their marking skills (In summer, cf winter, the sun is more often not covered by clouds; & is higher in the sky, for longer).

Furthermore, one must also be very careful in comparing skill levels in female AF to other female non-contact sports, such as tennis & soccer. (And in AF, of course, one must be fully proficient in skills both with hands and feet - & using an oval shaped ball).
When an AF player (male or female) is constantly tackled/ bumped/pushed (& regular collisions also occur), the consequent fear/pain will have an effect (at least for a short time) on skill levels ;& the pain will also induce fatigue, which affects skill levels.

 

[Our Game]

The AFLW will take at least ten years before it reaches a top standard when the young girls come through the system and are better trained
No sport would have had great skills in its infancy. It takes sometimes decades to hone those skills and change the rules to make the games more appealing to both players and spectators.

 

[BobbyMorri]

R

The AFLW in 2017 was in its first year -no one should predict/expect standards to be high.

That a reason for it. A very good one. It still doesn't make it a good standard yet. See below for MORE detail on why I think that.

You said "I think the average standard was very poor from the LITTLE I watched". An informed opinion...not. Your obvious reference was men's AF.

What was the average standard of W League players when it commenced? And in 2017?

Do you intend to directly answer my question above, in my previous post ie where /when have you castigated commentators from other codes who made derogatory comments about the AFLW, comparing it to men's AF?

I loved the All-star game in 2014(?) at the dome. compare that to the first game of AFLW + plus a couple of others and it felt way different. Perhaps it is rose coloured glasses in 2015 but yeah. Then there was Darcy, who stood out as a massive star among the basic skills errors. That is the potential. I can read and others think the same. Things will improve(or have improved) and I have never said they wouldn't.

as for the men's comparison, I think I made it clear it wasn't. If you think that, then you really know nothing about me and learned nothing about this last week.

The average standard of the W-league has improved. I reckon if I went in blind, I could still pick out the international players among the pack but it doesn't feel as stark nowadays. but you are trying to make a point which i have already stated a thousand times. what part of "AFLW is still very young/15 years time" do you not understand.

I am not that active on the AFLW forum and there are way more passionate people on here for AR women who would respond better and before I would. (regarding using the men to demean women sports) If something like that happens on the tennis forum, i would be the first to respond(though they often differ and are about equal prize money)

 

[jatz14]

The AFLW will take at least ten years before it reaches a top standard when the young girls come through the system and are better trained
No sport would have had great skills in its infancy. It takes sometimes decades to hone those skills and change the rules to make the games more appealing to both players and spectators.

Next year's draft is already being called something of a super draft.

I watched 10 min of the Vic Metro, Vic country u18 champs game yesterday. Intensity and pressure is less than AFLW standard, but marking and kicking imop is better.

One of the great interests of the coming season or 2 is getting a handle on how quickly it improves. I think it will surprise people.

Sent from my XT1068 using Tapatalk

 

[NoobPie]

Re the "top down" false dichotomy and comparisons with rugby league

....in the recently released ausplay survey update, there were 60k girls 14 an under playing Australian football July 16 to June 17 (pretty sure up from 50k in the previous release mid year). Rugby league has just 9k and rugby union just 1.3k.

Add to this, the jillaroos tv ratings in the rlwc are significantly lower than the aflw ratings

The afl brought the launch forward three years because the momentum towards it was irresistible. In 2020 they would have had a few more cohorts that had come up through youth development pathways but it still would have had a necessary rawness about it as the first full season with over 200 players

The nrl is talking another 6 years because they have noway near the participants and interest to achieve the success the aflw achieved now.

 

[BringBackTorps]

Re the "top down" false dichotomy and comparisons with rugby league

....in the recently released ausplay survey update, there were 60k girls 14 an under playing Australian football July 16 to June 17 (pretty sure up from 50k in the previous release mid year). Rugby league has just 9k and rugby union just 1.3k.

Add to this, the jillaroos tv ratings in the rlwc are significantly lower than the aflw ratings

The afl brought the launch forward three years because the momentum towards it was irresistible. In 2020 they would have had a few more cohorts that had come up through youth development pathways but it still would have had a necessary rawness about it as the first full season with over 200 players

The nrl is talking another 6 years because they have noway near the participants and interest to achieve the success the aflw achieved now.

I don't believe RL has 9000 U14 girls playing comp. CONTACT RL ;nor that RU has 1300 U14 girls playing comp. CONTACT RU. Gala Days & non-contact variants should not be included.

AFAIK, the Jillaroos played mainly during the day (non-Prime time) -thus explaining, possibly, their poor ratings. RLWC has rated very well.

IMO, the AFL was not very interested in GR female AF until c.2012.
Possibly, their prime motivation for female AF was not "... momentum ...was irresistible..." -GR Clubs were telling the AFL years before 2012 that organic female growth was occurring in schools. The AFL probably became very concerned about the huge growth of jnr. female soccer, & the long term strategic implications of these (future) mothers pushing their sons & daughters towards soccer.

One should not forget that our "expert" (sic) AFL Senior management team, being paid $8,000,000+ pa (by FAR the highest for a Not For Profit org. in Aust):-

. had underestimated how many females would want to play GR AF ;& how popular the AFLW would become.
. allocated the first AFLW Coll. vs. Carlton game to the small dump at Olympic Park
. then transferred it to Princess Park -not being aware that the crowd would be so great, people were packed in like sardines, thousands more locked out
. despite being aware of the crucial promotional value of OPEN, entertaining AFLW games (thus reduced to 16 on the field), "allowed" games to often degenerate into very low scoring, ugly 20-players-around-the ball, congested rugby/stoppages crap.
. gave the Broadcast Rights for the first 2 years for nil $ -probably not being aware how strongly the AFLW would resonate & attract strong ratings.
(C. Wilson said the first game's nos., peaking over 1,000,000 would have been worth c. $1,000,000 for sponsors)
. did not pressure Coll.FC into playing its home games at the mighty Vic. Park -which probably would have attracted pulsating crowds up to 15,000, with its big Grand Stands & excellent tiered Outer. An exhilirating, SENSATIONAL promotion for the AFLW. Instead, we have the small dump (for fans) of O./Park
. allocated too many day games in 2017 in the Aust. summer heat; & too many games starting around midday, or 5 pm Fri. -terrible for attendances.
. did nothing whilst Football Victoria would not permit teenage girls' comps. -forcing parents to take FV to court.
. allowed broadcasters to pan their telecasts over to the much less crowded Outers. The VFA previously, & now the 2017 RLWC & 2017 FFA Cup Final, had broadcasters positioned in the Outer, panning across to more crowded, "animated" Grand Stand sides -MUCH more vibrant/alluring visual optics for TV viewers.
. does not allow full strength beer at AFLW games. I have no problems with delineated Dry areas. Cold beer is more popular in hot weather -& many hate dishwater. The AFLW's strength/mojo should be its "Point Of Difference" -a stark, enticing contrast to winter AFL games. Offer real beer!

Rant over.

IIRC, there are less than 1000 adult female contact regd. RL players in Aust. Newcastle, RL heartland, has only 1 adult female team (plays in the Sydney comp.). Skills, probably, generally very low now.

 

[Our Game]

Next year's draft is already being called something of a super draft.

I watched 10 min of the Vic Metro, Vic country u18 champs game yesterday. Intensity and pressure is less than AFLW standard, but marking and kicking imop is better.

One of the great interests of the coming season or 2 is getting a handle on how quickly it improves. I think it will surprise people.

Sent from my XT1068 using Tapatalk

As more and more clubs/ teams are formed the talent pool will increase over time and thus the standard will rise.

I still believe this will take a few years to settle in and in the future the women will play a much more watchable and attractive game than now.

 

[The_Wookie]

I don't believe RL has 9000 U14 girls playing comp. CONTACT RL ;nor that RU has 1300 U14 girls playing comp. CONTACT RU. Gala Days & non-contact variants should not be included.

AFAIK, the Jillaroos played mainly during the day (non-Prime time) -thus explaining, possibly, their poor ratings. RLWC has rated very well.

IMO, the AFL was not very interested in GR female AF until c.2012.
Possibly, their prime motivation for female AF was not ".. momentum (was) irresistible..." -GR Clubs were telling the AFL years before 2012 that organic female growth was occurring in schools. The AFL probably became very concerned about the huge growth of jnr. female soccer, & the long term strategic implications of these (future) mothers pushing their sons & daughters towards soccer.

One should not forget that our "expert" (sic) AFL Senior management team, being paid $8,000,000+ pa (by FAR the highest for a Not For Profit org. in Aust):-

. had underestimated how many females would want to play GR AF ;& how popular the AFLW would become.
. allocated the first AFLW Coll. vs. Carlton game to the small dump at Olympic Park
. then transferred it to Princess Park -not being aware that the crowd would be so great, people were packed in like sardines, thousands more locked out

There are valid reasons for these. All the AFL had to compare with at the time was relatively low turnouts for womens sport. Womens soccer crowds for example are easily accommodated at venues similar to Collingwoods Olympic Park.

Moving to Princes Park was prudent and NO-ONE in their right mind foresaw a lockout prior to gameday.

. despite being aware of the crucial promotional value of OPEN, entertaining AFLW games (thus reduced to 16 on the field), "allowed" games to often degenerate into very low scoring, ugly 20-players-around-the ball, congested rugby/stoppages crap.

Im not sure the AFL allowed this any more than it did flooding or other coaching based strategies.

. gave the Broadcast Rights for the first 2 years for nil $ -probably not being aware how strongly the AFLW would resonate & attract strong ratings.
(C. Wilson said the first game's nos., peaking over 1,000,000 would have been worth c. $1,000,000 for sponsors)

Hindsight is a magnificent thing. The AFL got the best broadcast deal for AFLW of any of the womens sports at the time. No cost to them, and all costs picked up by both FTA and Fox broadcasts with a guaranteed live FTA broadcast and all games broadcast live on Fox. No other womens comp could boast such a thing at the time. And other than Netballs odd little share the advertising revenue scheme with 9, none of the others - WBBL, WNBL, Wleague - were/are - gettng any money for their deals.

. did not pressure Coll.FC into playing its home games at the mighty Vic. Park -which probably would have attracted pulsating crowds up to 15,000, with its big Grand Stands & excellent tiered Outer. An exhilirating, SENSATIONAL promotion for the AFLW. Instead, we have the small dump (for fans) of O./Park

Given the Pies failed to sell out any of the events they did actually have at Olympic Park, this is magnificent guess work.

 

[Gigantor]

An attraction of the womens league is to go to older VFL grounds, so the pies should be thinking about Vic park, and when Richmond comes in, Punt rd will be a popular venue as well.

 

[NoobPie]

Interesting ratings from yesterday that put into context the massive advantage of the AFLW over the other football codes

The national teams of both the women's soccer and league teams played yesterday on FTA

the Jillaroos in their (to be fair, predictably one sided) WC semi final against Canada got just 61k and just 31k of that metro on 7 -mate

the Matildas, with an enormous amount of momentum and build-up coverage, got 76K on SBS main channel, including 56K metro. It didn't make the top 20 on fox with a 54K cut off

Compare this with the (from memory) ~200K per match average achieved across the 8 weeks of the first season (though admittedly not evenly distributed) of the AFL W with most of those games fox only.

Women's soccer cannot get any better than what they've had over the last couple of months outside of a successful world cup you'd think. Rugby League probably will, but is coming from a long way back. You'd think the best bet in the short to mid term would be to invest heavily in a women's SOO concept

 

[BringBackTorps]

There are valid reasons for these. All the AFL had to compare with at the time was relatively low turnouts for womens sport. Womens soccer crowds for example are easily accommodated at venues similar to Collingwoods Olympic Park.

Moving to Princes Park was prudent and NO-ONE in their right mind foresaw a lockout prior to gameday.



Im not sure the AFL allowed this any more than it did flooding or other coaching based strategies.



Hindsight is a magnificent thing. The AFL got the best broadcast deal for AFLW of any of the womens sports at the time. No cost to them, and all costs picked up by both FTA and Fox broadcasts with a guaranteed live FTA broadcast and all games broadcast live on Fox. No other womens comp could boast such a thing at the time. And other than Netballs odd little share the advertising revenue scheme with 9, none of the others - WBBL, WNBL, Wleague - were/are - gettng any money for their deals.



Given the Pies failed to sell out any of the events they did actually have at Olympic Park, this is magnificent guess work.

Netball & Women's tennis regularly attract good crowds; Matildas recently, as does sometimes, IIRC, the women's USA domestic soccer comp. Notwithstanding that, we now know from the 2017 AFLW that relatively large crowds are willing to attend.

Continuing to play games at the small, flat O./Park dump, therefore, whilst the much bigger & comfortable (seating, shade, tiers, proper toilets etc) & far more popular Vic. Park is empty, represents an appalling failure of Coll. FC & the AFL to promote female AF. Vic. Park is absolutely a "no-brainer" for the AFL "experts" -its legendary status would ensure close to sell-out 15,000 crowds.
This represents another example of the AFL being derelict in its duty to promote the game as effectively as possible. Many commentators have stated one reason for the good AFLW crowds is the charm & nostalgia of the old VFL/SANFL/WAFL grounds.
Fitzroy JFC play some games at Vic. Park -& attract c. double their usual crowd.
Also, plenty of pubs/cafes/restaurants nearby, Vic. Park station 80 mtrs away, as is some car parking within 30 min.walk.

A few commentators (eg on SEN) did predict there was a possibility Princes Park would be a lockout -due to the historic nature of the first AFLW game.

It is the responsibility of the AFL to change/introduce Rules to create more aesthetic/popular game styles. A multitude of AF experts have stated the 4-man unlimited (previously) interchange is the cause of the cancer of flooding/congestion/scrappy play.
Why did the AFL rule that AFLW teams would have only 16 on the field? It did not go far enough. It was very predictible that some AFLW players now (but will improve) have inadequate disposal efficiency skills to ameliorate the effects of flooding.

Women's tennis, swimming, & golf rate well, AFAIK.
The WB v. Melb women's game in 2016 also peaked over 1,000,000 viewers; & the 2015 afternoon game c.400,000 (outrating an Ess. V. Adelaide AFL game the day before).
Why weren't mutually agreed "contingency"arrangements made with the Broadcasters that if 2017 & 2018 Ratings (perhaps on a sliding scale) reached certain high levels, then payments should be made for the Rights?

 

[BringBackTorps]

An attraction of the womens league is to go to older VFL grounds, so the pies should be thinking about Vic park, and when Richmond comes in, Punt rd will be a popular venue as well.

Punt Rd oval has recently been enlarged -lucky to fit 1500 in the Outer now; but the big, old beautiful Grand Stand remains & area in front of that. I suspect it might only hold c.6,000 total now.

 

[BobbyMorri]

Thing is, a full 10K crowd looks far better than an empty 15K if you get my drift. Then you get people wanting more.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Punt Rd oval has recently been enlarged -lucky to fit 1500 in the Outer now; but the big, old beautiful Grand Stand remains & area in front of that. I suspect it might only hold c.6,000 total now.

Official is 6k, but they locked out at 5k for the training session.

An increase in capacity to better accomodate vfl/aflw is part of our upgrade plan to the vic govt, so we should.hear soon how much the increase will be

 

[BringBackTorps]

Official is 6k, but they locked out at 5k for the training session.

An increase in capacity to better accomodate vfl/aflw is part of our upgrade plan to the vic govt, so we should.hear soon how much the increase will be

With the 5,000 "lockout" crowd, were people "packed in like sardines"? Room to move around then fairly easily?
What is your estimate of the current ground if, in future, the crowd was "packed in like sardines"?
Is the Grand Stand safe to be filled to capacity? Its capacity now?
(Some grounds have allowed their old Grand Stands to become derelict -& are thus not used/restricted).

And more brief info. on the proposal, please, to increase capacity at Punt Rd? Proposed capacity? Who will fund it, & estimate of funding required?
(Yarra is now a marginal seat -so you will probably get funding!)

Space is becoming scarce in some areas of Melb. for GR AF. Any plans to make Punt Rd open for community AF games when not required by RFC for training etc?

 

[Ned_Flanders]

With the 5,000 "lockout" crowd, were people "packed in like sardines"? Room to move around then fairly easily?
What is your estimate of the current ground if, in future, the crowd was "packed in like sardines"?
Is the Grand Stand safe to be filled to capacity? Its capacity now?
(Some grounds have allowed their old Grand Stands to become derelict -& are thus not used/restricted).

And more brief info. on the proposal, please, to increase capacity at Punt Rd? Proposed capacity? Who will fund it, & estimate of funding required?
(Yarra is now a marginal seat -so you will probably get funding!)

Space is becoming scarce in some areas of Melb. for GR AF. Any plans to make Punt Rd open for community AF games when not required by RFC for training etc?

1) i wasnt there, but apparently pretty cramped. Ohs is a big issue restricting numbers too

2) club has released little.in terms of details other than an 8k redevelopment is hoped for. I know the degree of the upgrade will depend upon the level of funding the govt gives, and apparently an aflw team was an important factor in this. Outside this, we have the jack dyer fund which raises money for major works at the club, and the gf $3m windfall wouldnt have hurt either.

3) no plans on making it a public park. The facility is gearing its community focus to the kgi and the transition school it now operates, and the courses rfc is running with swinburne

 

[BringBackTorps]

1) i wasnt there, but apparently pretty cramped. Ohs is a big issue restricting numbers too

2) club has released little.in terms of details other than an 8k redevelopment is hoped for. I know the degree of the upgrade will depend upon the level of funding the govt gives, and apparently an aflw team was an important factor in this. Outside this, we have the jack dyer fund which raises money for major works at the club, and the gf $3m windfall wouldnt have hurt either.

3) no plans on making it a public park. The facility is gearing its community focus to the kgi and the transition school it now operates, and the courses rfc is running with swinburne

If only an increase from 6,000 - 8,000, then it is a complete WASTE of money. Why limit the AFLW to 8,000? RFC should wait on their redev. until they can make an informed decision on how big AFLW crowds are likely to become.

AFLW, when the skills improve over the next 10 years, will attract average crowds far greater than the average 6,500 in 2017. RFC will be forced to move games to nearby Vic. Park, capacity 15,000.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

If only an increase from 6,000 - 8,000, then it is a complete WASTE of money. Why limit the AFLW to 8,000? RFC should wait on their redev. until they can make an informed decision on how big AFLW crowds are likely to become.

AFLW, when the skills improve over the next 10 years, will attract average crowds far greater than the average 6,500 in 2017. RFC will be forced to move games to nearby Vic. Park, capacity 15,000.

Lets see if those crowds hold when its not free anymore

 

[Our Game]

Lets see if those crowds hold when its not free anymore

Now theres the rub.

 

[bombersfan4000]

Lets see if those crowds hold when its not free anymore

I’m sure they will as the popularity of rhe game grows and skills improve it will find its niece market

 

[Gigantor]

A packed Punt Rd Oval for every Rich home game would be pretty good.

 

[Our Game]

A packed Punt Rd Oval for every Rich home game would be pretty good.

They dont even pack it out when the VFL team is playing!

 

[BringBackTorps]

They dont even pack it out when the VFL team is playing!

VFL games are played in the AFL season, often concurrently with AFL games - no clear air.

One of the main attractions for the footy-starved public, who are yearning for their "footy fix", is that the AFLW is played well after the AFL season has finished. The AFLW has a big Point Of Difference -which it should cultivate even more.
As skills rise in the AFLW, crowds will certainly rise from the average of 6,500 in 2017. And many AFLW games were played in ridiculous fan-unfriendly times in 2017 ie about 5pm Friday, about 11 am/midday weekends, too many mid afternoon games sometimes played in strong heat -do we want to give players & fans skin cancer/heat stroke/dehydration?
( Schedule has improved for 2018 somewhat)

 

[Rob]

VFL games are played in the AFL season, often concurrently with AFL games - no clear air.

One of the main attractions for the footy-starved public, who are yearning for their "footy fix", is that the AFLW is played well after the AFL season has finished. The AFLW has a big Point Of Difference -which it should cultivate even more.
As skills rise in the AFLW, crowds will certainly rise from the average of 6,500 in 2017. And many AFLW games were played in ridiculous fan-unfriendly times in 2017 ie about 5pm Friday, about 11 am/midday weekends, too many mid afternoon games sometimes played in strong heat -do we want to give players & fans skin cancer/heat stroke/dehydration?
( Schedule has improved for 2018 somewhat)

Not sure you can assume that at all. There was still a big novelty factor in the AFLW last season that's going to diminish as the years go by, and more teams is likely going to dilute the averages further as well. I agree the AFL have to start scheduling for crowds more - the times for WA games this season is ridiculous. They just have to be night games going forward if they want to maximise crowds, 2pm starts in Perth in February/March is suicide.