Analysis 2017 List Importance

[POBT]

Welcome to my annual exercise in self-promotion.

Last year, after a horror pre-season, I was too depressed to finalise this list. I think that, coming into round 1, a significant number of the players I had ranked as most important were either out injured, playing hurt or in a horrible form slump. Posting my list became an exercise in futility as it was clear that we'd already lost the blokes we could least afford to lose.

Unfortunately, this year has also been quite a sobering experience. While, I have thought all summer that we would be a bottom four side, I thought there was some chance we could avoid the wooden spoon and perhaps win a few more games than last year.

However, it was only as I went through this exercise that I realised just how under-developed our list is. There is no question in my mind that we're building up a stockpile of talent. Last year's draft haul (not listed below as they are yet to play a senior game) really adds to that, particularly in the midfield and flanker roles. However, we're far too reliant on young guys, particularly in key position roles. We've got an abundance of fringe types, whose careers are quite stagnant, still getting a game each week due to a lack of competition. And, probably also due to that lack of competition, some of our better 3rd-5th year players haven't made the most of their obvious talents.

So, I probably don't get too far out of the top 5 or so before I put question marks on players' capacity to perform consistently at senior level this year. Perhaps I am being overly pessimistic but it does seem to me that Fagan has a mountain to climb in terms of developing the list. I doubt that we'll get an immediate bounce in form but rather the list's improvement will be incremental and not necessarily noticeable for a while.

If there is a saving grace, it is that I see a few talented guys on the list who could really shape our season if they play at their best on a weekly basis. These guys are no longer the newbies and have had a few years in the system now to gain fitness, strength, confidence and know-how. We've seen them all play quality games, some more than others. I am a firm believer that players with a high ceiling must strive and be expected to reach those heights consistently. I will cite McStay, Cutler, Taylor, Mayes and Gardiner as the blokes that I have high expectations of this year. They all have the talent to be A or B+ grade players at senior level. All have had time in the system. They all should strive to have career best years. If they do, we will have a genuinely senior standard core for the really young guys to come into.

As always with this list, I only rank players with senior experience. I rate the players on a few things - their proven form in past seasons, their off season and pre season form, their capability (or "ceiling"), durability/resilience, leadership and their "replaceability" on our list.

This has been the hardest year to perform this task in terms of order. The list is very even but not necessarily in a good way. Young guys expected to carry too a heavy load, perpetual fringe types and solid but not spectacular seasoned players are hard to compare. Feel free to critique or comment. I'll try and explain my reasoning if it is not already obvious.

Enjoy (or don't, what do I care?)

 

[POBT]

1. Dayne Beams – As the captain and the best player, he is clearly the most important player on the list. He will carry a big load on his shoulders throughout the year. Our chances of even breaking even in the midfield each week relies on him playing and playing well.

2. Martin – He is probably the “most elite” player we have on the list, positionally speaking. Given we have limited backup in his role, he needs to play close to 22 games for us. Provides exceptional ground and aerial coverage when fit, which papers over a lot of cracks. A few more goals would be nice.

3. Zorko – He can accumulate and he can hurt the opposition. He gives a point of difference with his pace and also works harder back than a lot of our mids. He’ll bring energy and goals to the midfield too. He’s professional and found consistency last year. I have him higher than Rockliff as he is a two way runner who also hits the scoreboard from the midfield.

4.Andrews – Unfortunately, we are going to be heavily reliant on a 20yo to lead our defence and to take on quality forwards every week. Pre-season suggests Andrews has gone to another level again which is positive. I believe there is a big gap between him and our next best defender.

5. Rockliff – As a former All Australian who should still be at the peak of his powers, we need him winning clearances and moving the ball proactively. His tackling is first class but it is his defensive running which needs work. He’s clearly one of our few elite players but I see a few guys developing in the side who could play a similar, albeit less effective role.

6. Schache – I suspect he’ll be asked to lead the forward line again. Just like Andrews, that’s an unfair burden to place on a young bloke’s shoulders but that’s life up in Brisbane, unfortunately. I expect him to be a more impactful player than last year, however he needs to hit the scoreboard more regularly to justify this rating though.

7. Christensen – I think he’s a real make or break player for us. There’s a level of talent there that we don’t have a lot of but getting him at peak fitness and uninjured is proving to be a real challenge. A genuine wildcard player who brings ball winning, skill and goals to our midfield/half forward mix. He’s got to (a) get on the field and (b) improve his defensive running though.

8. Robinson – To use a cliché, I reckon he’s now a spiritual leader. If nothing else, young sides need a big, aggressive and vocal teammate to act as hired muscle and motivator. Then Robbo also brings a defensive ethic, a willingness to hit in at the contest and an ability to play multiple roles. He’d have been higher had Fagan kept him in the midfield.

9. McStay – I personally think there’s a level of untapped talent with McStay that is unsurpassed on our list. The big “if” is whether Fagan can unlock the talent and whether McStay can switch on mentally to make the most of what he’s capable of. Other than desire, I believe there’s absolutely no reason why he is not a top 10 player on our list. Another wildcard player who could either play 22 games or languish in the reserves – it really depends on his attitude.

10. Cutler – I think we all saw an enormous future for Cutler last year. However, there are lots of non-negotiables in being a regular senior footballer and I’m not sure he always ticks those off. Being in the right place structurally, protecting your teammates etc. A bit like McStay, the question is whether he wants to fix those weaknesses. On talent, he’s right up there and one of a few young blokes on our list that could reach All Australian level within 2-3 years if he puts it all together.





11. Rich – This is probably churlishness from me more than anything else but I’m tired of writing “If Rich can play at his best every week…” in these previews. I think we need to judge him on what he has done rather than what he could do. What he has done is play the occasional brilliant quarter and the occasional very good game. His best is sublime but it is rare and often not sustained across four quarters. He is clearly now icing on a cake which is still being baked which makes him far less important than if we were in a more advanced stage of our development.

12. Bell – We certainly didn’t see the best of Bell last year and I think supporters’ opinions of him soured as a result. However, I don’t think we should underplay what a really big body, a decent ability to kick goals and enormous engine could do for this side. He may not have any polish as a footballer but I think he could be effective for us if he gets some continuity in his footy.

13. Gardiner – A real riser in the pre-season, I now have him pencilled into the best 18 and a likely improver if he gets continuity. I’ve seen signs that he recognises he can’t just be a pure stopper in defence. He looks more willing to win the footy and then move it on proactively. His flexibility as a defender will also be important. Good signs.

14. Frost – I think Frost being ranked this high proves (a) how weak we are defensively and (b) how young we are. If nothing else, he brings a known ability to compete at this level. Notwithstanding that, Frost does have some genuine AFL standard attributes that actually combine quite well with our other defensive mainstays in Andrews and Gardiner. It has become a bit of a cliché, but if he can do a job on the opposition’s best forward most weeks, it will help enormously.

15. Close – Close has probably been the standout performer in the preseason. He’ll play key forward in round 1, after starting the preseason behind a few. Physically and endurance wise, he’s right up there. What he brings in terms of workrate and physical maturity is important with our young tall forwards.

16. Bewick – He’s been another standout pre-season performer having been named in the best twice out of three JLT games played. I think it is fair to say now that he’s a regular senior player rather than a fringe one. He has definitely developed a stronger presence in the contest and his workrate is very high. Credit to him for those improvements but he’s still got to demonstrate consistency across a full season. In a side with a few too many slow and poor runners, Bewick brings excellent ground coverage which gets him this high on the list.

17. Hipwood – Whether he plays every game or not will depend on how his body copes but he looks to be a lock in a 3 tall forward line at this stage. I don’t think anyone doubts the talent or the endeavour but his engine still isn’t where it needs to be and he’s going to be sore most weeks. He’ll be top 3 on this list within 3 years though.

18. Mayes – Just quietly, he’s had a reasonably OK preseason. I don’t know that he’s caught the eye too often but a regular 20 decent touches off half back is nothing to sneeze at. He’s taking a long time but he might just be on the edge of becoming a consistent performer at senior level. His kicking is not necessarily a standout but he does get the ball to the right place more often than not (quite unusual on our list!).

19. Taylor – He’s another one developing a slightly harder edge to his game. He had to because he was a liability at times last year with his inability to stop the ball in tackles. I actually think we’ll see Taylor become a much improved footballer as the year goes on. The Hawthorn style often relied on quickness of ball movement and Taylor is one who may thrive on that type of structure.

20. Harwood – I’m generally a Harwood fan and so am intrigued about what he might offer this year. I think we tend to underrate clean hands a bit and Harwood rarely fumbles the ground ball. When that means the difference between securing possession under pressure or allowing a turnover inside defensive 50, it becomes a pretty vital attribute. However, the 1-3 clangers a game, the inability to lock down on a high quality small forward and the quite lengthy injury history puts a lot of question marks on him. His maturity is an asset which makes him a quite crucial piece in the puzzle if he can stay fit.



21. Smith – He may not play a senior game all year and I’d still argue that this rating is justified. His senior games last year probably rank as the most pleasant surprise of what was a pretty unpleasant year. Guys who step up as the quality of footy increases are worth keeping tabs on. As our only senior backup to Martin, I think he’s quite important to the side’s fortunes.

22. Mathieson – He’s a fan favourite but I don’t know that he’s a coaches’ favourite just yet. In a side with a lot of one-paced footballers with slightly limited engines, he’s possibly the worst. On pure footy talent and on ball-winning, he’s clearly top 22 but the modern game places demands on players in terms of running and coverage. In this respect, it is what Matho does when we don’t have the footy which is what he needs to work on. I personally think his ability to win the hard ball should have him in the side and I’ve based this ranking on that.

23. Robertson – Another really pleasing pre-season performer. Sometimes, all you want from young blokes is that you can see they’ve worked hard on their weaknesses. It looks to me that Robbo has benefited from a move behind the footy where the game is more simple. As a result, a lot of the hesitancy in his game has gone. He’ll play round 1 and deserves first crack at it across half back. There is a lot of competition in the squad for this spot and guys like Dawson, Claye Beams and Paparone would have designs on this role.

24. Lester – He’s never going to be quick and he’s never going to cover the ground all that well. One on one, he’s probably one of our better players and the flexibility he offers within the gameday 22 shouldn’t be undervalued. However, to date, he hasn’t put together 22 games of AFL standard footy in any season. While his professionalism and leadership are obviously recognised internally, he does need to improve on field.

25. Bastinac – Is he the most disappointing player in the preseason? He’s either unhappy, bereft of confidence or disinterested. Perhaps, it is a combination of all three. Regardless, we certainly didn’t recruit him to play reserves, which is where he could/should be heading shortly. He’s capable of much better.

26. Walker – The move to defence in the reserves is interesting as his prospects in our forward line were looking increasingly dim. The big advantage he has as a forward is that he can pinch hit in the ruck. But he’s behind several if we’re looking at marks and goals. He should be much higher than this based on how long he’s spent in AFL systems. This rating assumes he will provide adequate coverage for our KPFs, KPDs and rucks.

27. Paparone – A real question mark on a guy who was once a bit of a mainstay at senior level. At his best, Paparone plays as a medium running defender who works hard to cover the space behind the zone. Or does he play his best as a wingman, with a licence to run the lines? Or does he play his best as a roaming half forward? Buggered if I know. He’s probably played his most consistent footy as a wide runner in the defensive half of the structure but guys like Bewick and Robertson have gone ahead of him for the moment. His long injury layoff is a factor too.

28. Keays – A bit of a punching bag this off-season in terms of his performances in the forward half. In terms of the positives, he is a hard worker who covers the ground well and is happy to hit in either at the man or the ball. However, that’s probably where his contributions at senior level end at the moment. He’s not getting a lot of the footy and, when he does, he’s not using it particularly well. Having said all that, I think he’ll probably play at least 10-12 games this year because he I reckon he does the right thing in terms of structures.

29. William – It is a shame he’s been injury affected because he probably needs to get miles in his legs. One of the factors I regard highly when doing this list is “uniqueness’ and William brings things to a side that not many others do. He’ll have opponents playing scared at NEAFL level this year with his physicality and intent. That’s highly valuable in a side which probably has a few weak links in terms of muscle. I think Fagan will give him another run in the seniors as the year rolls on.

30. Barrett – An interesting and potentially exciting pick up on the rookie list. There is a level of sameness in terms of what he brings to our midfield and half forward group in that he’s a bit one paced and not all that penetrative with his kicking. However, he does seem to work hard all game and, a bit like Keays, I don’t know that he lets you down defensively. A round 1 spot wouldn’t surprise and he’s young enough to keep improving with senior exposure.



31. Dawson – I am a Dawson fan and it was pleasing to hear positive reports out of the reserves practice matches. I think he’s got a really solid all round game without too many obvious deficiencies. I think his workrate and focus could improve and, once that happens, he should be able to move into the senior ranks. I probably rate him higher than this ranking suggests but I see him as a 2018 prospect.

32. Hammelman – Another whipping boy! In all seriousness, there’s more bad than good to his game right now. But let’s remember he had no right to play senior footy last year and even the fact that he’s getting JLT game time probably says more about our depth than anything else. But I still maintain that he’s got something to his game and, while I have him a long way down on this year’s list, I reckon he’s now a 50/50 prospect to get a contract extension, which is an improvement on 12 months ago.

33. C Beams – I hope I’m wrong but I think he’s a guy who always lacked natural pace and athleticism and now his injury history has really exacerbated that problem. I don’t think his career will go much longer than this year, which is a shame because he did have talent. His kicking and our current lack of small defenders is what will get him games.

34. Freeman – Talented but lazy? I think there are a few signs that he might be working on the latter. Sometimes, I think it is body language more than effort but, nonetheless, I think it is generally accepted that Freeman’s workrate is below par. I’d like to see him spend time in both the ruck and at half forward in the reserves before he gets another crack.

35. Jansen – There seem to be a few critical gaps in Jansen’s game right now. He doesn’t cover the ground to a senior standard and he really doesn’t get enough of the footy, either at reserves or senior level. He really needs to spend at least a month dominating NEAFL level before we even think about giving him another senior game.

36. Clayton – I have to admit that I’m probably struggling to see where he fits in at senior level. He does a few nice things, particularly with his movement, but I just don’t have him reaching the standard required to play consistent senior football.

 

[jackess]

Hard to fault but I think you could argue that Andrews and Frost could be swapped. Andrews has more pressure as a leader but it's Frost that plays on the deeper forward and Andrews who plays further up the field. I think Frost will spend more time on Kennedy, J Riewoldt, Roughead and a lot of the more dangerous forwards.

 

[M Malice]

broadly agree with your order, if i could go off on a bit of a tangent. top 10 going forward towards our next flag-

Josh Schache- power key forward.
Harris Andrews- key intercepting defender.
Eric Hipwood- power key back or forward.
Hugh McCluggage- silky smooth outside mid.
Sam Skinner- number 1 brute key defender.
Rhys Matheison- inside beast mode.
Cedric Cox- run out of the back or small forward.
Tom Cutler- run out of the back.

and our 2 first rounders at the end of this year. obvious we need mids eg. inside bull + outside class/small pressure forward type IMO.

 

[irel]

Impressive summation POBT. My opinion is that McStay and Cuttler much too high for exactly the reasons you provide, McStay appears to lack desire, focus and intensity which are IMO essential for a top 10 player and Cuttler's questionable adherence to the non-negotiables.

I would have Lester and Paparone much higher. Lester gets a bad wrap here but his value to the team can not be underestimated. Paparone I just can't wait to see what Fagan can do with him. Seems like the quintessential Hawthorn prototype player. Recovery from injury during a crucial period of Fagan's early tenure has set him back a bit. But if he comes back healthy and injury free I believe he will impress.

 

[Jman78]

Like the list, but with modern footy Could Mayes and Bewick move up a touch simply due to needing clean skills out of defence? Just food for thought

 

[POBT]

Impressive summation POBT. My opinion is that McStay and Cuttler much too high for exactly the reasons you provide, McStay appears to lack desire, focus and intensity which are IMO essential for a top 10 player and Cuttler's questionable adherence to the non-negotiables.

I would have Lester and Paparone much higher. Lester gets a bad wrap here but his value to the team can not be underestimated. Paparone I just can't wait to see what Fagan can do with him. Seems like the quintessential Hawthorn prototype player. Recovery from injury during a crucial period of Fagan's early tenure has set him back a bit. But if he comes back healthy and injury free I believe he will impress.

Fair calls irel. I really like the potential within McStay and Cutler who both have A grade levels of talent. I think we should have high expectations of them. They both (McStay in particular) strike me as boom or bust types for us this year. Sometimes, the most talented guys are the ones who are late to realise the commitment and intensity required. A guy like Steve Johnson got a game every week on talent but needed a few kicks up the arse before he truly reached his potential. I don't know that McStay and Cutler are exactly the same but I think that, if and when it clicks for them, they could be quite outstanding in their roles.

On Lester, I do struggle with what he will bring to the side in the long term and this rating reflects that. I don't think we can ignore the fact that he does get dropped most years which is quite instructive given how poor we've been.

With Paparone, he's one that I think an injury asterisk is probably appropriate. I do like to give guys a bit of a break in terms of expectations after a long injury layoff and Paparone has had a really delayed start to the year.

 

[POBT]

Like the list, but with modern footy Could Mayes and Bewick move up a touch simply due to needing clean skills out of defence? Just food for thought

Fair comments. Looking at my list, I think I have (unintentionally) prioritised key position players capable of playing a role at senior level. That has meant that the running players have dropped down the list a touch.

I'm somewhat wary of Bewick. He has the tendency to put together a good patch of form and then suddenly struggle for a few weeks. While I think he has really turned himself around since about mid 2016, I guess I've had high expectations of him before which he hasn't lived up to.

Mayes was really hard to rate. Is he building a substantial body of work that would make him quite an important player for us? Or is he still on the fringe of senior selection with the added risk that a couple of the younger guys on the list might end up being better?

 

[Fatcat08]

Impressive summation POBT. My opinion is that McStay and Cuttler much too high for exactly the reasons you provide, McStay appears to lack desire, focus and intensity which are IMO essential for a top 10 player and Cuttler's questionable adherence to the non-negotiables.

I would have Lester and Paparone much higher. Lester gets a bad wrap here but his value to the team can not be underestimated. Paparone I just can't wait to see what Fagan can do with him. Seems like the quintessential Hawthorn prototype player. Recovery from injury during a crucial period of Fagan's early tenure has set him back a bit. But if he comes back healthy and injury free I believe he will impress.

I think they're both that high due to the fact that if they both play to their potential then their affect on the team this year would be much higher than Lester and Paps. If they can play to potential they're transformative players in our side. That would tend to mean they're more important, even if they aren't better players at this stage.

 

[lionshine]

Great job mate. Not the easiest of tasks but I found myself agreeing with the majority of the list. I like your write up for William and the fact that you highlighted his potential "Uniqueness" that he could bring to the table. I am excited to watch him develop this year and I think he'll get some senior games if he can put together some consistency in the NEAFL.

Mr Ripper mentioned in the reserves thread his impressive play up forward during the reserves practice matches and he stated that he was reminiscent of Byron Pickett(A taller version perhaps?). Would love if he developed that same level of physicality and could impact games in a similar manner.

 

[Nunez]

I think Mayes will switch it on this year in defence. I've always thought he'd be better as a forward once again, but in my reclusive lifestyle finding a lot of time to watch old games, I feel the work Mayes has done going from defence-wing has been better than his forward games. I did watch games from his first season where he swung forward for the bulk and did some impressive stuff, but he also did a lot of impressive things that season drifting into the defensive side of the ground.

Mayes is someone who could/should/will be an ideal playmaker coming from defense. The biggest thing he needed to improve was defensive pressure, but he's shown a lot of improvement on that side as his confidence has risen.

Watch out for Sam this year.

 

[Fatcat08]

I think that Mayes will be one of the beneficiaries of what appears to be a slightly more nurturing coaching environment. He's a confidence player and that will help him

 

[Jman78]

Fair comments. Looking at my list, I think I have (unintentionally) prioritised key position players capable of playing a role at senior level. That has meant that the running players have dropped down the list a touch.

I'm somewhat wary of Bewick. He has the tendency to put together a good patch of form and then suddenly struggle for a few weeks. While I think he has really turned himself around since about mid 2016, I guess I've had high expectations of him before which he hasn't lived up to.

Mayes was really hard to rate. Is he building a substantial body of work that would make him quite an important player for us? Or is he still on the fringe of senior selection with the added risk that a couple of the younger guys on the list might end up being better?

Very true, although Bewick is a smokey in my SC team so he better perform. He seems to have really built himself up a bit... at least I hope so anyway!

 

[Nunez]

Interesting reading your list after the first two rounds. A few surprises but feel you've assessed the list fairly well. Hipwood shocking everyone.

 

[LongLion]

I think that Mayes will be one of the beneficiaries of what appears to be a slightly more nurturing coaching environment. He's a confidence player and that will help him

Mayes starting the year witha a lot more confidence and RUN. Keeps going he will start to achieve to our expectations

 

[POBT]

Interesting reading your list after the first two rounds. A few surprises but feel you've assessed the list fairly well. Hipwood shocking everyone.

It is probably a bit early to be judging but I reckon it is becoming increasingly clear that our competitiveness will rely on keeping our big name players fit and driving improvement in our 3-6 year cohort.

 

[POBT]

Mayes starting the year witha a lot more confidence and RUN. Keeps going he will start to achieve to our expectations

I've been really impressed with Mayes across the JLT and now rounds 1 and 2. He seems to be a more confident and determined footballer.

 

[Kevvo]

I've been really impressed with Mayes across the JLT and now rounds 1 and 2. He seems to be a more confident and determined footballer.

Yeah, agreed. In particular I've noticed him running hard and consistently to provide a return option after he's disposed of the ball. I feel like we're moving the ball much more effectively out of defense this year and I think his running plays a significant role in that.

 

[AFLQLD]

A couple of things have become apparent to me after the first three rounds. We still rely very heavily on our more experienced players and will for some time. We have barely begun the transition to the next wave of players coming through. I thought about our top ten players that are most critical to make the team function well:

Beams (1) is our best player and he and Rockliff (2) are the keys to our midfield performing. Along with Martin (3), and to a slightly lesser extent Zorko (4) they are the midfield engine that needs to be running well for us to create opportunities.

Andrews (5) and Hipwood (6) are probably the next two critical players - a big task for still developing footballers but they are just so vital for our future. They are young but already established in the team. Andrews is now the key to our defence working well. Hipwood is a danger up forward, more so than Schache and Close (although Close is becoming more important)

Robinson (7) would be next since he is often the spark for something positive that leads to a goal, a turnover or forcing a contest. I would add Christensen (7.5) in here if he was currently available.

The next three might be surprising for some but I feel they are becoming an integral part of the machinery of the team: Mayes (8), Cutler (9) and Taylor (10). I think Taylor in particular plays a much overlooked role in linking defense and attack - he is still rough and ready at it but he is one of the few in the team who regularly changes the angles and forces defenders to adjust, creating space for others. As the team gets better, so will his value. Mayes and Cutler are only just coming into their own but their broad progress this year has been good, while still having some poor individual moments.

Next in line would be Rich (11) who I hope might be higher be season's end but he needs real consistency before that can happen. His moments in games tend to still be cameo appearances (although the effort and involvement against Saints was a huge improvement).

 

[a mayes ing]

Spot on imo.
With Mayes, l actually think he is doing really well. He had a few errors last week but he was providing a lot of run i thought and tried to crete things. Rather that than just long bombing it down the line.

Taylor also, he gets a bit of a bad time but seriously, apart from some really stupid individual stuff, he tries to take the game on and usually is a good kick to a leading player.
I personally am not sure if Hippy should be "already established" as he is so inconsistent, as he should be due to his age. I know he will be a gun but atm he doesn't impact the game enough so l don't see any reason why he shouldn't be played in the 2's every now and then. Due to both him and Schache being so weak in the core, they were easily outmarked by the more experienced defenders.

I would also like to have mathieson somewhere up high. He brings so much spark to team and really gets them up and going, loved that shotgun thing from the goal he got last year. Bit of character, don't see anyone else doing it unfortunately and it seems that people have told him not to do it which is disappointing,

 

[Forward We Go]

Spot on imo.
With Mayes, l actually think he is doing really well. He had a few errors last week but he was providing a lot of run i thought and tried to crete things. Rather that than just long bombing it down the line.

Taylor also, he gets a bit of a bad time but seriously, apart from some really stupid individual stuff, he tries to take the game on and usually is a good kick to a leading player.
I personally am not sure if Hippy should be "already established" as he is so inconsistent, as he should be due to his age. I know he will be a gun but atm he doesn't impact the game enough so l don't see any reason why he shouldn't be played in the 2's every now and then. Due to both him and Schache being so weak in the core, they were easily outmarked by the more experienced defenders.

I would also like to have mathieson somewhere up high. He brings so much spark to team and really gets them up and going, loved that shotgun thing from the goal he got last year. Bit of character, don't see anyone else doing it unfortunately and it seems that people have told him not to do it which is disappointing,

Agree with most of what you say up above in bold however there is some MAJOR points that also need mentioning regarding both Hippy & Schache.
a) Both were quiet and both had little impact on the game on Saturday. Main Reason: More than 90% of the time the ball was delivered into the forward line by a big/high mongrel kick. Carlisle & Brown must have thought it was their lucky day as MUCH BIGGER defenders than their opposition match up's. If we want them in the game more, the delivery needs to be different to how they did it on Sunday .They (The Saints Defenders) are more experienced defenders correct, but they are also much more mature bodies with more muscle than our 2 teenagers. We need to be smarter and work the ball to our best advantage. Our boys need to separate more and not be subjected to bombs coming down giving them NO hope of taking a grab.
b) Often our boys did bring the ball to ground which also asks the question of who was at their feet ready to pounce on the ground balls? StKilda brought the ball out of our forward line far too easy and too often. Our smaller forwards need to be ready to compete better when the ball hits the ground.
c) Providing our young guns are fit and not getting tired/fatigued/cooked, I believe they stay in the seniors to get as many games & experience under their belts. Every game they will learn something important that will help them for the future. The quicker these guys get 50-60 games under their belt, the quicker they become established weapons in our forward line. I don't support playing them unless they show effort and improvement, but I do support them being selected & getting them experience under Fagan & his new exciting style that will be our future. I believe they will get better quicker playing seniors rather than playing NEAFL and that's what we all want.
d) Agree that Rhys's "shotgun thing" was entertaining but the AFL instructed our club to discourage that happening again. This was NOT a club directive.

 

[a mayes ing]

Agree with most of what you say up above in bold however there is some MAJOR points that also need mentioning regarding both Hippy & Schache.
a) Both were quiet and both had little impact on the game on Saturday. Main Reason: More than 90% of the time the ball was delivered into the forward line by a big/high mongrel kick. Carlisle & Brown must have thought it was their lucky day as MUCH BIGGER defenders than their opposition match up's. If we want them in the game more, the delivery needs to be different to how they did it on Sunday .They (The Saints Defenders) are more experienced defenders correct, but they are also much more mature bodies with more muscle than our 2 teenagers. We need to be smarter and work the ball to our best advantage. Our boys need to separate more and not be subjected to bombs coming down giving them NO hope of taking a grab.
b) Often our boys did bring the ball to ground which also asks the question of who was at their feet ready to pounce on the ground balls? StKilda brought the ball out of our forward line far too easy and too often. Our smaller forwards need to be ready to compete better when the ball hits the ground.
c) Providing our young guns are fit and not getting tired/fatigued/cooked, I believe they stay in the seniors to get as many games & experience under their belts. Every game they will learn something important that will help them for the future. The quicker these guys get 50-60 games under their belt, the quicker they become established weapons in our forward line. I don't support playing them unless they show effort and improvement, but I do support them being selected & getting them experience under Fagan & his new exciting style that will be our future. I believe they will get better quicker playing seniors rather than playing NEAFL and that's what we all want.
d) Agree that Rhys's "shotgun thing" was entertaining but the AFL instructed our club to discourage that happening again. This was NOT a club directive.

Just a few things, you said they brought the ball ground to a lot, l have to disagree here. Time after time they got outmarked. Partly it was because of terrible kicking by the mids and partly becuase they were getting pushed under the ball, but it was very clear especially in the 1st half.

The other things is we need to be really careful about just thinking that if they get to 50/60 games then they will be good. We need to be competetive and win games so that they understand how to win and not drop their heads. I think the main issue with Leppa is that he played the kids so much (due to injuries etc.) that we lost pretty much every game by a big margin and they didn't develop properly. When they did get to 50 games, they were not as good as well all hoped they would.

 

[blynd_freddie]

Love these bi-annual posts of yours POBT

I respect the time and thought that you put into them and will ask I for a little more time to construct a thoughtful opinionated reply.

From the OP;

As always with this list, I only rank players with senior experience. I rate the players on a few things - their proven form in past seasons, their off season and pre season form, their capability (or "ceiling"), durability/resilience, leadership and their "replaceability" on our list.

Not sure "their capability (or "ceiling") crystal balling fits in with 'proven form' but it would certainly increase the opportunity for additional discussion if you were to offer/suggest numerically how high you rated their possible career ceiling.

 

[blynd_freddie]

As always with this list, I only rank players with senior experience. I rate the players on a few things - their proven form in past seasons, their off season and pre season form, their capability (or "ceiling"), durability/resilience, leadership and their "replaceability" on our list.

This has been the hardest year to perform this task in terms of order. The list is very even but not necessarily in a good way. Young guys expected to carry too a heavy load, perpetual fringe types and solid but not spectacular seasoned players are hard to compare. Feel free to critique or comment. I'll try and explain my reasoning if it is not already obvious.

- POBT

For me I’m looking at experience first – broke the players up into 3 groups 100+ [only 7 players], 50-100 [8 players] and 0-50 [20 players] and as you have only listed the 35 players on the list that have played a senior game.

To show how hard this is – Bastinac, until last week was our equal most experienced player, Squizzy is our 14th most experienced player!
I have also to a degree, weighted goals per game percentages into my rankings – we have 7 players are currently averaging more than a goal a game, 3 of them make up my top 3.

Backmen… geez we struggle. I have ranked 5 backmen in the top 11 BUT… I am being a little cheeky suggesting Rich is Mid/Def?

Top 10 – variances to POB's
Hipwood at #3 – hard match up, kicks goals – after only 13 career games [frightfully low sample guide I know] is only 0.03% behind our leading goals per games kicker]
Martin at #7 – would rate higher if he kicked more goals, think either/or Smith/McInernay ‘could’ fill the role but would rather not have to test the theory!
Bastinac at #14 might also raise some eyebrows and being dropped for round 3 might suggest I’m off the mark a far bit but I’ll stick with experience.

Those outside the ‘best 22’??? – Beams C, Walker, Harwood and the one that I struggled most with… Paparone.
Barrett, Mathieson, Keays and Jansen all need to show me better kicking, marking and thinking skills before they push for a top 20 spot. Actually there are a few in there that have been given a little leniency re the thinking!

okay - gotta run have a music gig to catch.

 

[Nunez]

Interesting reading your list post season POBT . A few surprises here and there.