Analysis 2017 List Management Discussion - Part 3

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Nori

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At times our ball movement out of defence is both slow and predictable. Sure we have used the short kicking game to great effect to minimise costly turnovers. However it comes at a cost where we make it easy for the opposition to set up defensively. Someone like Saad will provide us with run and carry options we currently don't utilise effectively.

Having said that I wouldn't mind doing the reverse Liam Jones on him and converting him into a small forward. Great overhead and will trouble slow defences alongside Pickett when the ball hits the ground.Rockliff is another noted goal kicker and the three of them could possibly address our inability to convert our inside fifty chances alongside McKay and Curnow with pace and aggression. Thoughts?
I agree about the ball movement issue, but I reckon that's where an improved midfield will have the greatest benefit.

The club seems pretty confident the young forwards can get the jobs done, but they are going to need quicker rebound and better delivery to get separation.
 
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true blue19

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We still need to get as many games into the kids as we can. Even if we pick up Rockliff, Kennedy, Smith and Griffen. All the player below we need to play as many games as possible

B Williamson Marchbank Plowman
HB Docherty Weitering Pickett
C Cunningham Cripps SPS
HF Curnow Kerr Smith
F Silvagni McKay Fisher
R Kennedy
INT LeBois Polson Rayner Macreadie

I still think we need a young ruck or two and another inside beast.

One of the main thing we can learn from Richmond is "believe we are a good team that can win games"
 

PP34

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I think we might be surprised by carlton's improvement next year.

Apart from Richmond's well performed small forward line structure their biggest improvement came from their rejuvinated midfield. The addition of Caddy and Prestia and the career best form of Dusty and Cotchin made for a super competitive midfield combination.

Carlton are now ready to build out their midfield unit as well. If SOS can bring in 2-3 super talented midfielders I'm thinking a top 8 finish as early as next year is not completely out of the question.
I said to some mates 2019 I think is the year we can get back in the finals.

I still think that might be a bit overly optimistic though. Carlton really needs to find another gun midfielder.

Martin and Rance add so much extra to that Richmond team. I think we've found a future superstar like those two in Curnow and Cripps is on his way to becoming a very good midfielder.

Our defence is set, I just really think we need a line breaking sort of jet midfielder. You don't necessarily need one to win a flag but watching some of the recent top teams they've all had someone in the middle who can kill you in the middle and kick big goals. Fyfe, Dangerfield, Martin, Kennedy etc.

Our forward line is going to slow progress too. Richmond's forward line was very young but Riewoldt was huge for them. Curnow and McKay are still learning and the rest of our forward line ain't much. Think we've found a gem in Pickett as a small forward, another small would be really handy.
 

Bluey24

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I think we might be surprised by carlton's improvement next year.

Apart from Richmond's well performed small forward line structure their biggest improvement came from their rejuvinated midfield. The addition of Caddy and Prestia and the career best form of Dusty and Cotchin made for a super competitive midfield combination.

Carlton are now ready to build out their midfield unit as well. If SOS can bring in 2-3 super talented midfielders I'm thinking a top 8 finish as early as next year is not completely out of the question.
Something I haven't seen mentioned much is Richmond's relatively clean bill of health this year.........

They played like a team that's had a lot of opportunity to play together, gelling more and more across the season.

I think it played a huge part in their premiership :rainbow:
 

CJMB

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Relatively? It's been amazing.
19 players played in the VFL GF last week.
They only had one player that couldn't front on Saturday. One player with any real niggles. Amazing.
Whoever ran the Richmond S&C program possibly deserves more plaudits than they are currently receiving.
Probably helps not having too many big key forwards, older ruckmen or those senior/end-of-their-career ex-midfielders playing off the back flank (ie McVeigh, Hodge, Boyd, Deledio, etc) as those types tend to go down more regularly than others.
 

BlueJet

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Agree SHT.

Not that impressed with Doc as a mid - best left where he has been killing it.

See Willo as fabulous winger - Isaac Smith style (and he comes from the same area in VIC - so you know it makes sense!).

Find someone else to play inside MID.
Yep, it's just a comfortable 7 hour drive from Cootamundra to Ararat. ;)
 

HBF

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I must say the Crows "Gibbs trade thread" is hilarious.

Prolifically cocky and abusive towards Carlton Management, Players, posters up until about 4pm yesterday.

Today there are very few posters, and those are very nasty towards any Carlton posters who dare venture there and seriously sooking it up big time.

Appeals to the sadistic humour within me!!!
Starts at the top. Even Roo has publicly stated that he thought we would roll over and accept their trade last year.
 

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Sheephead

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Just me, but I'd skip this draft (ie the first round) and look to add more mature bodies and a future pick. I like Rayner, Cerra and Uniacke, but I liked Will Brodie too, I think our priority for the rebuild should be getting more numbers in and see where that places us for next year. Richmond have 2 Rolls Royce and 6-8 Commodores in their mid field/fwd line. We have a Rolls and a couple of Commodores. We need more cars for the lot.

If Gibbs wants to go, fine, it's time to cash in and move forward - take their late first (16) Gallucci, Poholke and O'Brien. 3 kids who aren't getting games but fill needs for us and are Victorian kids already in a system. There's no point dictating and wasting the opportunity to move forward strongly. They can use Gibbs we want more players.

Trade the 3 pick to GWS for Kennedy, Smith and Griffen plus their 2018 first (15-18) and a 2017 second (23) (they have 2 2nds). I think people are way undervaluing Kennedy and Smith and we need to pay up. A future pick is nothing to GWS and we get 2 quality for a prospective kid who has done nothing as yet.

Trade 16/Buckley/Graham to GCS for Saad/Shaw/24 (they have 3 2nds). 8 pick upgrade is greater for them than a later pick. We get 2 solid players for 2 who need a new home.

Trade Boekhorst/23 to FRE for Balic/Langdon/40. Balic is a good nugget that needs time at home just to get some polish. Langdon is a highly underrated Vic kid not getting mid time.

Heavily recruit Rockliff. Worth decent money to help stabilise the midfield while Charlie and Sammy develop.

Instead of putting eggs in one basket with Rayner or Cerra we have bought in 11 players to 'interview' for spots. One ruck, 3 wings, 1 HF/mid and 6 pure mids of different ages and styles.

Go to draft with 24/38/40 alone, but have 2 2018 firsts now waiting also. The two 3rds may pick up another player that falls free as well or trade up for a kid that drops. Would love taking a fly on Worpel. Just think people will rue letting him drop.
 

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Something I haven't seen mentioned much is Richmond's relatively clean bill of health this year.........

They played like a team that's had a lot of opportunity to play together, gelling more and more across the season.

I think it played a huge part in their premiership :rainbow:
They did use 38 players off their list which is the 3rd highest of all clubs, having everyone fit at the right time of year is very important.
 

harmesy 37

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I hope Gibbs stays. If he requests trade to Adelaide, all I want is for Carlton to play hardball. The equivalent of two good players is needed. Two first round draft picks is a minimum.

Not happy with the way players such as Zach Tuohy can walk out of Carlton and the club gets little in return. It has to be a win for Carlton if any other established player walks. Carlton built Zach Tuohy up from a nothing player from Ireland and to basically get Smedts (so far a dud) and swapping a 2nd rounder for a late 1st round pick for him is not a win for the Blues.

“It was sub-par, very sub-par. Almost insulting,” he said of the money Carlton offered Tuohy last year. He was offered a 3 year contract... and this is what he has to say about it? Would be interesting to know the exact difference Geelong offered him financially. I think it would be similar and it is a case he was trophy hunting, and I hope it comes back to haunt him and Gibbs should he think of trophy hunting as well. Trophies don't often end up at where you think they will.

Not one pundit from this year in the media experts or last year tipped Bulldogs or Tigers.
 

Jimmae

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Just looking at the timelines for list management, can someone explain why there are 3 periods of delisted player free agency trading?
The first DFA window occurs during the trade period. The second occurs after the trade period, and the third one occurs after the National Draft.

Each reflects the delisting periods, and also the flexibility needed in these times so clubs can respond to any major gaps in their list, or opportunities that come up to improve their list in the wake of changes immediately after the season, the trade period and the national draft.

Just me, but I'd skip this draft (ie the first round) and look to add more mature bodies and a future pick. I like Rayner, Cerra and Uniacke, but I liked Will Brodie too, I think our priority for the rebuild should be getting more numbers in and see where that places us for next year. Richmond have 2 Rolls Royce and 6-8 Commodores in their mid field/fwd line. We have a Rolls and a couple of Commodores. We need more cars for the lot.

If Gibbs wants to go, fine, it's time to cash in and move forward - take their late first (16) Gallucci, Poholke and O'Brien. 3 kids who aren't getting games but fill needs for us and are Victorian kids already in a system. There's no point dictating and wasting the opportunity to move forward strongly. They can use Gibbs we want more players.

Trade the 3 pick to GWS for Kennedy, Smith and Griffen plus their 2018 first (15-18) and a 2017 second (23) (they have 2 2nds). I think people are way undervaluing Kennedy and Smith and we need to pay up. A future pick is nothing to GWS and we get 2 quality for a prospective kid who has done nothing as yet.

Trade 16/Buckley/Graham to GCS for Saad/Shaw/24 (they have 3 2nds). 8 pick upgrade is greater for them than a later pick. We get 2 solid players for 2 who need a new home.

Trade Boekhorst/23 to FRE for Balic/Langdon/40. Balic is a good nugget that needs time at home just to get some polish. Langdon is a highly underrated Vic kid not getting mid time.

Heavily recruit Rockliff. Worth decent money to help stabilise the midfield while Charlie and Sammy develop.

Instead of putting eggs in one basket with Rayner or Cerra we have bought in 11 players to 'interview' for spots. One ruck, 3 wings, 1 HF/mid and 6 pure mids of different ages and styles.

Go to draft with 24/38/40 alone, but have 2 2018 firsts now waiting also. The two 3rds may pick up another player that falls free as well or trade up for a kid that drops. Would love taking a fly on Worpel. Just think people will rue letting him drop.
GWS will never sign off on that proposed trade, and the GC trade is us downgrading a pick for garbage. I don't understand how you thought the Freo trade looked good either.

Can we stop talking about Shaw and Langdon, please? They are terrible.

Also, can we put you, Geoff and 4thchicken in a room and only let you out when you're prepared to analyse players before inserting them into a trade scenario?
 

Keyza

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Something I haven't seen mentioned much is Richmond's relatively clean bill of health this year.........

They played like a team that's had a lot of opportunity to play together, gelling more and more across the season.

I think it played a huge part in their premiership :rainbow:
Riohmond has had a good injury run for quite a few years now. Last year was one of the only times they had a few injuries and they missed the finals. I read on Saturday that of their best 8-9 players they only missed 5 games between them.
Good management has something to do with it but a lot of it is luck when it comes to collision injuries. Interestingly Rioli injured his ankle on Saturday and needs an operation. He has 6 months to get himself right ,talk about good timing.
 

Blue__Balls

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I hope Gibbs stays. If he requests trade to Adelaide, all I want is for Carlton to play hardball. The equivalent of two good players is needed. Two first round draft picks is a minimum.

Not happy with the way players such as Zach Tuohy can walk out of Carlton and the club gets little in return. It has to be a win for Carlton if any other established player walks. Carlton built Zach Tuohy up from a nothing player from Ireland and to basically get Smedts (so far a dud) and swapping a 2nd rounder for a late 1st round pick for him is not a win for the Blues.

“It was sub-par, very sub-par. Almost insulting,” he said of the money Carlton offered Tuohy last year. He was offered a 3 year contract... and this is what he has to say about it? Would be interesting to know the exact difference Geelong offered him financially. I think it would be similar and it is a case he was trophy hunting, and I hope it comes back to haunt him and Gibbs should he think of trophy hunting as well. Trophies don't often end up at where you think they will.

Not one pundit from this year in the media experts or last year tipped Bulldogs or Tigers.
And he huffed and he puffed...


Two first round picks for Gibbs is the maximum, not the minimum. A mid range first rounder (ie. Pick 10) probably gets it done by itself, though we'd undoubtedly ask for a little something extra if we can get away with it. A later first rounder would need to be packaged up with something else (ie. Picks 17 and 27). If we can use those returns to improve our side, we should swallow our pride and pull the trigger. On-trading 17, plus our Pick 38, for Kennedy, Smith and a salary dump is good trading, and we take 27 to the draft for someone like Tim Kelly. Gibbs & 38 = Kennedy, Smith, Kelly & Griffen gets the tick of approval from me.

Tuohy didn't walk, he was pushed. Widely accepted that we identified him as a tradeable asset and lowballed his contract to give him a nudge out the door. Used him to secure the first rounder that GWS wanted for Marchbank and Pickett, and if we'd pushed Geelong for a higher pick GWS would still have been taking it off us.

Winning individual trades is a very simplistic approach. Once you'd identified your target (ie. Marchbank and Pickett in 2016, Kennedy and Smith in 2017?) the next step is to do what you need to do to get your players across. Look at our list and picks now, and compare them to what we have after the trade period - that's when you can assess whether we've come out ahead.
 

Keyza

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I hope Gibbs stays. If he requests trade to Adelaide, all I want is for Carlton to play hardball. The equivalent of two good players is needed. Two first round draft picks is a minimum.

Not happy with the way players such as Zach Tuohy can walk out of Carlton and the club gets little in return. It has to be a win for Carlton if any other established player walks. Carlton built Zach Tuohy up from a nothing player from Ireland and to basically get Smedts (so far a dud) and swapping a 2nd rounder for a late 1st round pick for him is not a win for the Blues.

“It was sub-par, very sub-par. Almost insulting,” he said of the money Carlton offered Tuohy last year. He was offered a 3 year contract... and this is what he has to say about it? Would be interesting to know the exact difference Geelong offered him financially. I think it would be similar and it is a case he was trophy hunting, and I hope it comes back to haunt him and Gibbs should he think of trophy hunting as well. Trophies don't often end up at where you think they will.

Not one pundit from this year in the media experts or last year tipped Bulldogs or Tigers.
I was disappointed with Tuohy too. No need to bad mouth a club that gave you such a great opportunity and taught you how to play AFL. I have no idea what he was offered, Trigg said it was a healthy 3 year deal. In isolation the Tuohy deal may not look that great but it got us Marchbank and Pickett and allowed us to retain our first pick, which was SPS.
 

Red Bull

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And he huffed and he puffed...


Two first round picks for Gibbs is the maximum, not the minimum. A mid range first rounder (ie. Pick 10) probably gets it done by itself, though we'd undoubtedly ask for a little something extra if we can get away with it. A later first rounder would need to be packaged up with something else (ie. Picks 17 and 27). If we can use those returns to improve our side, we should swallow our pride and pull the trigger. On-trading 17, plus our Pick 38, for Kennedy, Smith and a salary dump is good trading, and we take 27 to the draft for someone like Tim Kelly. Gibbs & 38 = Kennedy, Smith, Kelly & Griffen gets the tick of approval from me.

Tuohy didn't walk, he was pushed. Widely accepted that we identified him as a tradeable asset and lowballed his contract to give him a nudge out the door. Used him to secure the first rounder that GWS wanted for Marchbank and Pickett, and if we'd pushed Geelong for a higher pick GWS would still have been taking it off us.

Winning individual trades is a very simplistic approach. Once you'd identified your target (ie. Marchbank and Pickett in 2016, Kennedy and Smith in 2017?) the next step is to do what you need to do to get your players across. Look at our list and picks now, and compare them to what we have after the trade period - that's when you can assess whether we've come out ahead.
Great post :thumbsu:
 

CJMB

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I was disappointed with Tuohy too. No need to bad mouth a club that gave you such a great opportunity and taught you how to play AFL. I have no idea what he was offered, Trigg said it was a healthy 3 year deal. In isolation the Tuohy deal may not look that great but it got us Marchbank and Pickett and allowed us to retain our first pick, which was SPS.
Hard to call without knowing the actual figures. Trigg (or anyone at Carlton) is always going to say that the offer was fair but the reality is there may have been a sizeable discrepancy between our offer and what Geelong had on the table. If it was $100k a year difference over three years (plus the opportunity to play in finals) would you really blame Tuohy for moving on? That's a lot of cash for a young man with a family.
 
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