Analysis 2017 List Management Discussion

[TheHeatleyStand]

Liked your post BFL.

Wanted to pick up on a couple of things in your post:

Apart from Cripps, Hughes and Rogers made a number of poor choices at our first pick ... Boekhorst, Bootsma, Lucas, Watson, Menzel ... it goes on. One year they justified going for smaller players (Cripps and others) because they would take talls in the next year's draft, and they had chatted with Malthouse about it too ...

See: http://www.heraldsun.com.au/carlton...s/news-story/514e1172ead5291eb83125c8878ce0d1

And then the next year's trade they took Jacksch - the tall - and Whiley, our pick 7 given to GWS for pick 18 which was used for Boekhorst.

The Board did not react to our continued poor recruiting. It had appointed Malthouse mistakenly believing the list was on the cusp of top few and a premiership ('pinch one with Judd' I once read).

It was only when Kernahan moved on and MLG took the reins that the Board made decisive moves ...

Malthouse final nails ... This happened because he was simply the wrong coach for us and should never have been appointed. The Board dithered in sacking Malthouse, but then having finally realised that he was the wrong coach for us, went about getting the right coach for us.

Trigg, Silvagni and Bolton give me so much confidence that we are heading in the right direction ...

For too long our Board was very poor (it predated Kernahan's presidency).

Silvagni does stuff that Rogers and Hughes might not have imagined and if they did they certainly wouldn't have dared.

If you think the club was totally controlled by sticks and the rest of the board were there to make up the numbers you're severely mistaken
The total mismanagement of the club was a group effort and sticks was voted president unanimously six or seven years straight!
There's nothing to prove we're catching up at the moment

For sure we're improving but so is every club.
The way to make up ground is by being ground breaking with innovation..
Following other clubs won't cut it for ultimate success.

 

[TheHeatleyStand]

In football terms he reminds me a bit of Laurence Angwin.
Doubt he is that talented but did kick a weird goal last year that reminded me of him.
Round 15 in Perth of 2003 season when Angwin kicked 2 goals some of the play was life wtf? at the time in terms of watching a freak raw talent. Had serious X factor like few I seen before or since. Did not move like a normal 200 cm player.
Think he got injured the next week against Swans and only played one more game late in season.
The rest is history.
Not sure Karl ever got back his full CD and DVD collection again.

Think the big Orange guy got his head screwed on a bit better than young Laurence at that time.
But I am expecting his career to be as brief. Just do not see a specific role he has made for himself.
As a de-listed free agent it was worth a look though. He has a full year to show something he has not shown so far at two clubs. Good luck to the guy. Seems a good fella.

Angwin was a winner on the football field

 

[TheHeatleyStand]

Thank you. i like gorringe, wont be a star that youd expect from a high draft pick. but i believe he can be a handy utility for the next 5 years.

I'm with Harker on Gorange.. He lacks competitiveness and that's something he's never going to find!
Competitiveness is innate

 

[Soapy V]

I'm with Harker on Gorange.. He lacks competitiveness and that's something he's never going to find!
Competitiveness is innate

Hard to tell difference between competitive & confidence when we don't know them personally.

 

[therubbernub]

For sure we're improving but so is every club.
The way to make up ground is by being ground breaking with innovation..
Following other clubs won't cut it for ultimate success.

You make it sound so simple. It aint. Change for the sake of change is not a recipe for success. There are certain basics that need to be followed which we are now doing. I am happy that we are followers. We just need some luck and continued good management.

 

[GapInIkonPark]

If you think the club was totally controlled by sticks and the rest of the board were there to make up the numbers you're severely mistaken
The total mismanagement of the club was a group effort and sticks was voted president unanimously six or seven years straight!
There's nothing to prove we're catching up at the moment

For sure we're improving but so is every club.
The way to make up ground is by being ground breaking with innovation..
Following other clubs won't cut it for ultimate success.

The Board did not control. That is not what I said or meant.

Rather, the Board simply did nothing. Just let it keep going.

It predated Kernahan's presidency as I said in my post.

You say THS that 'There's nothing to prove we're catching up at the moment.'

Do you think we are heading in the right direction?

 

[agro]

We are heading in the right direction, but we are coming from very, very far back.

We are only now starting to embrace things such as proper recruiting processes, proper list management processes, proper player development processes.

These are processes that the Sydneys, Hawthorns, Geelongs have been doing for years.

We are not catching up as much as getting to square one.

 

[ShanDog]

There's no imaginary race happening where we need to 'catch and pass' a leader.

The club has been slow to adopt modern methods of management and is now addressing that. Positive results need not wait until we deem ourselves somehow 'ahead' of others.

 

[TheHeatleyStand]

The Board did not control. That is not what I said or meant.

Rather, the Board simply did nothing. Just let it keep going.

It predated Kernahan's presidency as I said in my post.

You say THS that 'There's nothing to prove we're catching up at the moment.'

Do you think we are heading in the right direction?

If i swim against Thorpe in his heyday I would be swimming in the right direction.
To go past people to you must innovate .
Copying has you heading in the right direction but you won't get ahead of the pack
Why?
Because you're following, right?

My question is what are we actually doing that's groundbreaking?

 

[TheHeatleyStand]

You make it sound so simple. It aint. Change for the sake of change is not a recipe for success. There are certain basics that need to be followed which we are now doing. I am happy that we are followers. We just need some luck and continued good management.

Who's saying change for the sake of change?
Innovation is what leads
You can bet your bottom dollar were following others innovations and others will continue to innovate..
That's the way the world has always been.
Groyndbreakers and pioneers and those that follow.

 

[BlueGum]

If i swim against Thorpe in his heyday I would be swimming in the right direction.
To go past people to you must innovate .
Copying has you heading in the right direction but you won't get ahead of the pack
Why?
Because you're following, right?

My question is what are we actually doing that's groundbreaking?

Not sure that we'll know without the benefit of hindsight, but I'd lay my money on the breakthrough coming with Bolt's learning and coaching model. He expects everyone to be involved and contributing - its that sort of involvement that will create the breakthroughs in game plan and commitment from players. Could be the things that will counter some other team's style of game. Or get creative ourselves and be hard to coach/play against.

I reckon SOS is doing similar things in list management and recruiting - leaving no stone unturned, no potential player in the open for others to see...

 

[GapInIkonPark]

If i swim against Thorpe in his heyday I would be swimming in the right direction.
To go past people to you must innovate .
Copying has you heading in the right direction but you won't get ahead of the pack
Why?
Because you're following, right ... My question is what are we actually doing that's groundbreaking?

Thanks for your reply THS. To use your analogy, we are swimming past Thorpe in his heyday, just that we are a lap behind with the 700 mark in front of us as we glance sideways and Thorpy charging towards the 750 mark.
IMO, our list is not good enough yet to worry about groundbreaking innovation to challenge the top few. We are heading in the right direction though ...

 

[HARKER]

Thanks for your reply THS. To use your analogy, we are swimming past Thorpe in his heyday, just that we are a lap behind with the 700 mark in front of us as we glance sideways and Thorpy charging towards the 750 mark.
IMO, our list is not good enough yet to worry about groundbreaking innovation to challenge the top few. We are heading in the right direction though ...

Two parts in that sentence.

The list may largely be good enough, although it isn't mature enough just yet.
I know other clubs supporters are thrilled for the young names they have on board, but other than GWS, we could match it with the best of them in the top end talent. It's amazing how good second and even third tiered players can be within the right system and the right spread of key talent.

The groundbreaking innovations come about through a club as a whole and for now, we do seem to be singing the same song.
Innovations are great but the unity of club and adherence to a plan is better.

We are playing catch-up and this is hard to do.
I know people will cite the Dogs for their win last year, but history shows us that for every romantic Premiership win, there will be many more that come about purely for good systems and processes, culture and quality of club. We're only beginning to crawl.

 

[therubbernub]

one teams innovation is another teams discarded coach

 

[HARKER]

Things can change and newbies still need to be proved, but even at this early stage, this doesn't look like a terrible start point for our squad.
A squad that could possibly all be together still, in five years time.

Docherty Weitering Plowman
Byrne Marchbank Pickett

Kreuzer Cripps Fisher
Cuningham Gibbs Boekhorst

Sumner CCurnow Petrevski-Seton
Silvagni McKay Poulson

Add in some good trades (Hopper), drafting (Ben Silvagni) and quality development into Macreadie, Williamson, LeBois, Glass-McCasker etc.
Get at least one real hit from Phillips, Smedts or Jaksch and there may just be something worth celebrating here.

 

[ShanDog]

Again with the race analogies.

It's not a race. There is no finish line. There are no lanes. Just good management and bad management.

 

[bmaurizio]

Again with the race analogies.

It's not a race. There is no finish line. There are no lanes. Just good management and bad management.

That's about if in a nutshell, the Blues have been badly managed fie years and finally it all came apart.
Bolton & Silvagni have made a huge difference and are a very positive influence and we're beginning to be a competitive outfit again.
Long way to go yet.

 

[HARKER]

Again with the race analogies.

It's not a race. There is no finish line. There are no lanes. Just good management and bad management.

It would be a race for Trigg and the board.
We've set our start line and want to see progress reports, ultimately culminating into a win.

We can say that it's not a race but it has to be............because others already in full stride.
Can go on using analogies but if we have to be at the ready, steady and good-to-go, at all times......oops another one

 

[Old navy]

Two parts in that sentence.

The list may largely be good enough, although it isn't mature enough just yet.
I know other clubs supporters are thrilled for the young names they have on board, but other than GWS, we could match it with the best of them in the top end talent. It's amazing how good second and even third tiered players can be within the right system and the right spread of key talent.

The groundbreaking innovations come about through a club as a whole and for now, we do seem to be singing the same song.
Innovations are great but the unity of club and adherence to a plan is better.

We are playing catch-up and this is hard to do.
I know people will cite the Dogs for their win last year, but history shows us that for every romantic Premiership win, there will be many more that come about purely for good systems and processes, culture and quality of club. We're only beginning to crawl.

Good post Harkers. Spot on in regards to our top end young talent being up there with the best in the league.
Think that we aren't that far behind other teams that are 2 or 3 years further advanced into rebuilds.
The 2015 draft has the potential to be massive for us, we traded out players that had currency but for one reason or another were not seen to be part of our future and it netted us a bunch of high end picks further forcing our club to really imbrace the draft, for a change.
As luck would have it the 2015 draft is loaded with talls, giving us an opportunity to really rebuild our spine, we also get a bit of a free hit with Jack and we're are off to a dame good start.
2016 draft and trade period has me pumped, because the players we've recruited point to the brand of footy we are looking to play.
IMO it looks like Bolton has requested players who are, skillful, competitive, have pace and can move the footy quickly.

Think if we stay the course in two years time we may have one of the best young list in the comp, it's actually pretty staggering how much we manage to turn our list around in such a short time, our list was in woeful shape at the end of the 2015 season, its nowhere near the finished producted, but every game we watch this year will have plenty for us to look forward to, going to be awesome watching our young talent develope.
We've all gotten excited about the club at other stages before, but this time it doesn't just feels different, it feels like we're doing things right.

 

[TerryWallet]

Look left.....see my join date....we have been stagnating at best, and hence getting further and further behind the competition, since that date...and earlier.

In light of this, this Board has been full of pessimism and negativity by the realists....and full of daydreaming and delusion by the dreamers.

The post season 2015 period was the time both camps could genuinely come together. We have done everything right since then and we are definately heading in the right direction, and improving.

Off-field, we have shown admirable competance and seem to be pulling in the same direction.

On-field, we are building a genuine quality young team. The sooner the leadership can be transitioned to the leaders of the new group, we will be off and away. As everyone knows, we have one more developing, learning year to get through and then we can at least wave goodbye to the bottom 6 and have a side/club that the Top 8 teams no longer can have a 10% mental break in the week they play us.

Edit: pretty much what OldNavy posted at the same time above.

 

[ShanDog]

It would be a race for Trigg and the board.
We've set our start line and want to see progress reports, ultimately culminating into a win.

We can say that it's not a race but it has to be............because others already in full stride.
Can go on using analogies but if we have to be at the ready, steady and good-to-go, at all times......oops another one

Youre tryin to piss me off arent ya.

 

[BlueRenaissance]

It would be a race for Trigg and the board.
We've set our start line and want to see progress reports, ultimately culminating into a win.

We can say that it's not a race but it has to be............because others already in full stride.
Can go on using analogies but if we have to be at the ready, steady and good-to-go, at all times......oops another one

Agree. Even though we don't want it to be, it is a race as football department careers are on the line. Malthouse went for instant success at the expense of the long term safe progress of the club. Buckley is now doing it at Collingwood.

The club president, coach, and recruitment dept are held accountable in the short term meaning it is def a race to produce results. Eventually Bolton will be force to produce if all doesn't go to plan. When that time comes, he will do his career a favour, not Carlton. I got nothing against that as that is reality. I just believe in his ability so am happy. I didnt believe in Malthouse's ability at that time of his life so railed against him throwing parts of our future away.

The Football Ops head is supposed to look after the club but these a very grey lines. If KJ worked out we wouldn't point the finger at all at Malthouse. Look over at the tigers to see if is not a race..and geelong.

 

[Jabba73]

Again with the race analogies.

It's not a race. There is no finish line. There are no lanes. Just good management and bad management.

Racist

 

[thylacine60]

against Tim & Sam.......

 

[ShanDog]

STOP SAYING ITS A RACE ITS NOT A ******* RACE THAT DOESNT MAKE ANY ACTUAL SENSE IF YOU THINK ABOUT IT FOR MORE THAN TWO ******* SECONDS oh FFS forget it. Yay racing...