Analysis 2017 List Management Discussion

[Malifice]

Here's what I think we can build our back-line around:

Certainties (Almost) - Marchbank, Macreadie, Byrne, Docherty, Plowman = 5
Others (Just for now) - Sheehan, Williamson, Pickett = 3
Possibilities: Glass-McCasker, Buckley = 2

We may yet need that one brute, but maybe not.
Maybe a flexible back-line is the way to go.

You're forgetting Weitering.

Im weirded out that people think that Weits is being groomed for a permanent role up forward.

Not even Carlton would draft a gun full back with pick 1, who looked dominant in a defensive post from his first year, and then play him as a mediocre forward.

He's playing there as coverage should Levi leave as a F/A, to provide a second tall up forward due to lack of any other options at present, and to buy McKay more time.

Hes a key defender. We need to draft a key forward (or McKay needs to come on) so JW can get back to dominating the backline again, winning multiple AA's from full back.

He doesnt need to play there at present because we can cover him with the glut of key defenders we have. That doesnt mean its going to be a permanent move up forward.

 

[ferrisb]

Here's what I think we can build our back-line around:

Certainties (Almost) - Marchbank, Macreadie, Byrne, Docherty, Plowman = 5
Others (Just for now) - Sheehan, Williamson, Pickett = 3
Possibilities: Glass-McCasker, Buckley = 2

We may yet need that one brute, but maybe not.
Maybe a flexible back-line is the way to go.

Don't forget we also have the most talented man-child CHB I have ever seen, currently running around in the fwd line.

Not sure where Weiter-bot ends up, but if it's in the backline he is a certainty and would be that extra brute you mentioned.

 

[Soapy V]

Here's what I think we can build our back-line around:

Certainties (Almost) - Marchbank, Macreadie, Byrne, Docherty, Plowman = 5
Others (Just for now) - Sheehan, Williamson, Pickett = 3
Possibilities: Glass-McCasker, Buckley = 2

We may yet need that one brute, but maybe not.
Maybe a flexible back-line is the way to go.

Totally agree. Still think Rowe has a couple of years left and is a great back up for the Hawkins types. Like to see Lamb have a go as a running defender. Tough, fit, great defensively and an underrated kick. Pickett of HB would be awesome if he can get fit

Still think Weitering will spend a lot of time back and then it looks even better

 

[G-TRAIN07]

Assume you're talking about Schache. Has shown nothing at AFL level but he's a key forward and as we know they take time.
Weitering, McKay, McCartin & Moore are young key forwards in the same boat.

Not saying we should go for him because I would not be keen on offering him 700k. But I also trust SOS.

I don't rate him as a player. I'm not seeing it

 

[HARKER]

You're forgetting Weitering.
Im weirded out that people think that Weits is being groomed for a permanent role up forward.
Not even Carlton would draft a gun full back with pick 1, who looked dominant in a defensive post from his first year, and then play him as a mediocre forward.

He's playing there as coverage should Levi leave as a F/A, to provide a second tall up forward due to lack of any other options at present, and to buy McKay more time.

Hes a key defender. We need to draft a key forward (or McKay needs to come on) so JW can get back to dominating the backline again, winning multiple AA's from full back.

He doesnt need to play there at present because we can cover him with the glut of key defenders we have. That doesnt mean its going to be a permanent move up forward.

He's not a full back and SOS saw him as being the better forward, ahead of Schache.

Let's not get into this discussion/argument again. Let it play out and it will become clearer as time goes on, for all.

 

[HARKER]

Totally agree. Still think Rowe has a couple of years left and is a great back up for the Hawkins types. Like to see Lamb have a go as a running defender. Tough, fit, great defensively and an underrated kick. Pickett of HB would be awesome if he can get fit

Still think Weitering will spend a lot of time back and then it looks even better

Give me a back-line with Weitering included and tell me how much better it is, than having Weitering forward.

Don't worry about it......don't want to go there again, for now.

 

[LordLucifer]

You're forgetting Weitering.

Im weirded out that people think that Weits is being groomed for a permanent role up forward.

Not even Carlton would draft a gun full back with pick 1, who looked dominant in a defensive post from his first year, and then play him as a mediocre forward.

He's playing there as coverage should Levi leave as a F/A, to provide a second tall up forward due to lack of any other options at present, and to buy McKay more time.

Hes a key defender. We need to draft a key forward (or McKay needs to come on) so JW can get back to dominating the backline again, winning multiple AA's from full back.

He doesnt need to play there at present because we can cover him with the glut of key defenders we have. That doesnt mean its going to be a permanent move up forward.

I'm in total agreeance, have never felt strongly about Weitering being played as a permanent forward. I can understand the need to play him there now whilst we don't have the alternatives but I see his best role in defence.

It is noticeable to me the way he is playing CHF is very similar to the way Jarryd Roughead has at Hawthorn (both are same height) by pushing up and between both wings to be a link player and then dropping back into the 50m arc to provide a target.

In addition to Weitering being a permanent defender, I still see Jack Silvagni being played in defence also. He's a very smart player and one who is extremely disciplined which is crucial at that end of the ground. We know he can be played in attack as well so it will give us some serious versatility subject to the ebb & flow of a match. I also see Charlie Curnow being groomed as a midfielder who spends his rest time across half-forward.

If those three were to be played in the future as outlined, the heavy focus now should be on bringing in more mids, forwards and a ruck or two which would probably be no surprise to anyone, just a rethink on how many we need.

 

[Iamcarlton]

Someone posed the scenario to get a top 10 pick for Gibbs via a 3rd party. If for instance we could turn Gibbs into Schache, I can see why that would appeal.

Yeah i saw that and i guess i just dont like the idea of Schache dont see the need for it . Firstly because i feel he's not that good and dont think he will be that good . And Weigh up what our needs are and its definately not urgent we find another KF its not just 1 midfielder its 3 or 4 .

 

[Soapy V]

Give me a back-line with Weitering included and tell me how much better it is, than having Weitering forward.

Don't worry about it......don't want to go there again, for now.

but........................you're right. my stance on weitering is fairly clear

 

[HARKER]

In addition to Weitering being a permanent defender, I still see Jack Silvagni being played in defence also. He's a very smart player and one who is extremely disciplined which is crucial at that end of the ground. We know he can be played in attack as well so it will give us some serious versatility subject to the ebb & flow of a match. I also see Charlie Curnow being groomed as a midfielder who spends his rest time across half-forward.

We're going to have the best VFL back-line of all time. Don't forget..........Get Lever too.

 

[Malifice]

He's not a full back and SOS saw him as being the better forward, ahead of Schache.

Source?

 

[LordLucifer]

We're going to have the best VFL back-line of all time. Don't forget..........Get Lever too.

I'm dubious on the need to pick up a player like Lever. Might be a handy player but we are well stocked for defenders at present IMO.

Here's how I see it in the future :

B : Plowman, Macreadie, Marchbank
HB : J. Silvagni, Weitering, Docherty
C : Williamson, Cripps, TBA
HF : TBA, TBA, Polson
F : TBA, McKay, Fisher
R : TBA, C. Curnow, Petrevski-Seton
I/C : Byrne, TBA, TBA, TBA

Kerr & Cuningham yet to show their wares fully hence not included now.

 

[Malifice]

Give me a back-line with Weitering included and tell me how much better it is, than having Weitering forward.

JW (on exposed form to date) is a gun defender (years ahead of his age by position, who outright dominated games last year), and a mediocre forward. On exposed form.

How is this even a debate mate? He absolutely killed it as a defender last year, and (in 8 games as a forward) has done sweet F/A (he's kicked 7 goals in 8 games, and thats with Levi going well this year, and drawing the best defender).

The strong hint can be seen in the games we've been getting smashed and needed an extra defender. Bolton moves JW straight back into a defensive post.

He's a key defender. We just need him up forward at present because we dont have anyone else. I dont mind him being played up forward (it adds strings to his bow and helps his development, and leaves us with a backup forward going... well... forwards)

Getting in a key forward and moving JW back to a permanent defensive post is the plan. Its just at present we dont have that young gun key forward. McKay is still developing, Kerr is miles off. We are forced to expose JW to the forward line as coverage to plug a hole. We can afford to do it becuase we have a glut of key defenders, but in an ideal world we would have a key forward (McKay) up forwards, and Wietering down back more or less permanently (but able to swing up forward when Bolts needs him to go there).

 

[Malifice]

I'm dubious on the need to pick up a player like Lever. Might be a handy player but we are well stocked for defenders at present IMO.

Here's how I see it in the future :

B : Plowman, Macreadie, Marchbank
HB : J. Silvagni, Weitering, Docherty
C : Williamson, Cripps, TBA
HF : TBA, TBA, Polson
F : TBA, McKay, Fisher
R : TBA, C. Curnow, Petrevski-Seton
I/C : Byrne, TBA, TBA, TBA

Kerr & Cuningham yet to show their wares fully hence not included now.

Bit harsh on Pickett and Cuningham. Polson gets a nod but not those two?

Also, I know you have a hard on for tall blokes Sheik, but that backline is too tall. Way too tall. Pull SOSOS out and replace with Williamson or Byrne. Move SOSOS up forward.

 

[Soapy V]

I'm dubious on the need to pick up a player like Lever. Might be a handy player but we are well stocked for defenders at present IMO.

Here's how I see it in the future :

B : Plowman, Macreadie, Marchbank
HB : J. Silvagni, Weitering, Docherty
C : Williamson, Cripps, TBA
HF : TBA, TBA, Polson
F : TBA, McKay, Fisher
R : TBA, C. Curnow, Petrevski-Seton
I/C : Byrne, TBA, TBA, TBA

Kerr & Cuningham yet to show their wares fully hence not included now.

Nice. Not sure I see Jack as a defender especially with what we have. My youth side (2019) is:

B: Docherty Weitering Plowman
HB: Byrne Marchbank Williamson
C: Pickett Cripps SPS
HF: Polson McKay Silvagni
F: LeBois Kerr TBA
R: TBA Charlie Fisher
I/C: Cuningham Sumner Macreadie TBA

Add Hopper Balic Schache and another 6-8 talented kids.
Plus I expect Murphy Curnow Rowe Graham Kruezer Phillips and maybe even Simpson & Sheehan to be around and playing good football

 

[Zlatan]

The conversation about Weitering playing forward in this thread is certainly a lot different from the Carlton vs Fremantle thread..

 

[Malifice]

JW as a backman - career high disposals 26 (in his 3rd game) 17 kicks and 129 SC points (BOG followed by Sam Docherty with 119 SC points). 24 disposals and 14 marks against Brissy in round 11 (3rd best on).

Finished last year:

1st among rising stars in Total Marks in 2016

4th among rising stars in Total Contested Marks in 2016

3rd among rising stars in Total Rebound 50s in 2016

4th among rising stars in Total One Percenters in 2016

3rd among rising stars in Marks Per Game in 2016

5th among rising stars in Effective Disposals % Per Game in 2016

He's currently averaging 11 disposals, 4.8 marks, 1 tackle, 57 SC points, and under 1 goal a game (as a forward).

I get why we need to expose and train him as a forward, and I agree he will switch hit up there, but I seriously think some people have some very short memories here. Not even Carlton go out and draft a gun once in a generation key defender with pick 1, to play him permanently as a mediocre forward.

 

[passmark]

I'm not sure we can say Weitering isn't performing and doesn't have a future in the forward line.

He was terrific a couple of weeks ago and we really have no idea what his role entails. For all we know he's meeting all the criteria the MC want.

Add to that our low inside 50 count.

Happy for them to play him wherever they see fit.

 

[Cliffords Blues]

Exactly!

PS I believe our defence has the potential to rival our greatest. Add Byrne, maybe Sheehan and it looks incredible. May just need a small defender with some run. With a dominant midfield I can't see it being beaten

Zak Jones?

 

[Soapy V]

Zak Jones?

Yes! I reckon he is exactly what we need

 

[JohnnyFontane90]

You're forgetting Weitering.

Im weirded out that people think that Weits is being groomed for a permanent role up forward.

Not even Carlton would draft a gun full back with pick 1, who looked dominant in a defensive post from his first year, and then play him as a mediocre forward.

He's playing there as coverage should Levi leave as a F/A, to provide a second tall up forward due to lack of any other options at present, and to buy McKay more time.

Hes a key defender. We need to draft a key forward (or McKay needs to come on) so JW can get back to dominating the backline again, winning multiple AA's from full back.

He doesnt need to play there at present because we can cover him with the glut of key defenders we have. That doesnt mean its going to be a permanent move up forward.

we took weitering because he was by far the best prospect available in the draft.

he's probably a better player as a defender, but he's more than capable as a forward. he's not a number 1 forward mind you so mckay (or someone else) needs to come on regardless of what weitering does but i think as a 2 forward he can be as good as anyone. so far he's averaging more goals a game than franklin, roughead and tom lynch in their second year and this is when we rank second last in inside 50s in the comp behind brisbane who's key forward prospects are also struggling with consistency.

i think he's too skillful with the ball to be played in defense, particularly with the depth we have there.

 

[Malifice]

I'm not sure we can say Weitering isn't performing and doesn't have a future in the forward line.

I dont think anyone is saying he's not performing. The point is he was performing much better as a key defender.

We need to expose him up forward, and seeing as this is a junk year (like next year) more or less we might as well expose him now. Im all in favor of him getting some time up forward, and I fully expect him to be used as a surprise forward over his career to throw coaches and defensive units off. Its a pretty common ploy with key defenders; throw them forward from time to time.

We're also just seeing if he can be a gun forward. You never know. We need one (badly). The fact he's playing up forward, and there is talk of Schache (and going by SOS' track record at GWS drafting in 4 key forwards in Patton, Cameron, Boyd and McCarthy) tells me that SOS is acutely aware of our need to find another key forward somewhere.

Its a stop gap and development thing. People are looking at it like its going to be a permanent move forward and its not (well... unless he starts booting bags of 3+ regularly).

Rowe, White and Simpson leave us soon. He'll be moving down back again in a year or two more or less permanently to make the odd surprise swing up forward.

 

[TBellicious]

The club sees Jacob as a backman in the long run

 

[Cliffords Blues]

Yes! I reckon he is exactly what we need

Hard nut, could go through midfield as well.
two birds, one stone.

 

[Iamcarlton]

You're forgetting Weitering.

Im weirded out that people think that Weits is being groomed for a permanent role up forward.

Not even Carlton would draft a gun full back with pick 1, who looked dominant in a defensive post from his first year, and then play him as a mediocre forward.

He's playing there as coverage should Levi leave as a F/A, to provide a second tall up forward due to lack of any other options at present, and to buy McKay more time.

Hes a key defender. We need to draft a key forward (or McKay needs to come on) so JW can get back to dominating the backline again, winning multiple AA's from full back.

He doesnt need to play there at present because we can cover him with the glut of key defenders we have. That doesnt mean its going to be a permanent move up forward.

So what your saying is we should deny him the chance to play as a forward in his second year after what 30 games in a learning environment as that is what our side is for many of our players . Doesnt make a lot of sense to me to pigeon hole a player that way in only his second year but thats just me and imo is very shortsighted . We are not winning premierships anytime soon so why that attitude or is it that your just trying to support your argument about obtaining a Key forward ? . Btw who has said he will be a permanent forward ?