2017 National Draft - 24th November 7pm

Roscoe_au

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Apologies if this has been asked, but wondering what the knock on Jack Higgins was? Thought he would have been a perfect fit for us at #16 and although Naughton at #9 looks great (and people who I have asked said the kid is a 200-game CHB) just a little perplexed at 2 back line players when outside speed and some goal kicking nous is what we seem to lack.

Makes me wonder WTF we were thinking when we gave Collins another 12 months. He needs to remove the digit from his ass and find a yard because at the moment he is in delist territory and the season hasn't even started.
 

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Dale4captain

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Apologies if this has been asked, but wondering what the knock on Jack Higgins was? Thought he would have been a perfect fit for us at #16 and although Naughton at #9 looks great (and people who I have asked said the kid is a 200-game CHB) just a little perplexed at 2 back line players when outside speed and some goal kicking nous is what we seem to lack.

Makes me wonder WTF we were thinking when we gave Collins another 12 months. He needs to remove the digit from his ass and find a yard because at the moment he is in delist territory and the season hasn't even started.
Collins is still 20 years old. That should put things into perspective.
 

bobby2

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Apologies if this has been asked, but wondering what the knock on Jack Higgins was? Thought he would have been a perfect fit for us at #16 and although Naughton at #9 looks great (and people who I have asked said the kid is a 200-game CHB) just a little perplexed at 2 back line players when outside speed and some goal kicking nous is what we seem to lack.

Makes me wonder WTF we were thinking when we gave Collins another 12 months. He needs to remove the digit from his ass and find a yard because at the moment he is in delist territory and the season hasn't even started.
Does there have to be a knock on Higgins? Maybe the club just rated him slightly lower than Richards, who will also provide outside speed in a position of need.
 

Yojimbo

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Collins is still 20 years old. That should put things into perspective.
How old is Lewis Young ? Is it fair to say he has vaulted Collins
in a single bound even though he could do with a few all you
can eat vouchers from some random steak place. Collins was
an all Australian at under 18's level, but were his attributes
fully transferable to senior football.
 

dogwatch

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How old is Lewis Young ? Is it fair to say he has vaulted Collins
in a single bound even though he could do with a few all you
can eat vouchers from some random steak place. Collins was
an all Australian at under 18's level, but were his attributes
fully transferable to senior football.
He's still 18.

He turns 19 on 20th December, 6 days after Collins turns 20.
 

Dannnnnnnnnn

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FWIW.

Joel Hamling was selected by the Cats at pick 32 in 2011. He went on to spend three years on their list without playing a game (or really coming close) and was delisted at age 21, about six months older than Collins will be next year. Despite Geelong needing key defenders for the future he was deemed unfit or unable to fill those roles at AFL level.

At age 22 he got his first taste of AFL football, playing 11 games in a season that ended in an elimination final. He played some ok football and showed some decent signs, but wasn't by any means an automatic selection or sure thing to make the grade.

At age 23 he was out of the side for the first half of the season before returning and playing some ordinary football for four or five games. After that it clicked: at the end of the season, his game came together and he played some terrific football, culminating in him playing a key role in a premiership. He then requested a trade to Fremantle.

"Oh, he won't be as good at Fremantle, our system was the reason for his spike in form;" "He won't perform as well in a bad team," went the normal cries post-trade. Well, they were wrong: he continues to go from strength to strength and look every bit of an AFL level key defender for Fremantle. His form simply spiked as a result of more experience, more knowledge, more confidence, and most importantly: more time.

SO much of a defender's skillset is learned. Natural talent for the position helps but it's absolutely not as necessary as it is to play other positions. It doesn't mean anybody could be a key defender, but it means that it can take some time for them to find their feet in the position. I'd be loathe to give up on a talented, young player in that position in such a short period of time. It really makes no sense.

I don't know if Collins will make it - I have concerns too. But fu** me, the guy isn't even 20 yet, plays a very physical game style, hasn't had a full preseason and hasn't got an AFL level tank. It is way too early to be making a call on him.
 

Norm De Guerre

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How old is Lewis Young ? Is it fair to say he has vaulted Collins
in a single bound even though he could do with a few all you
can eat vouchers from some random steak place. Collins was
an all Australian at under 18's level, but were his attributes
fully transferable to senior football.
Completely different players. Young had an amazing debut and follow up game where he was allowed to play as a loose man across half back, but when forced to play a more accountable game was more often than not caught completely out of position. That this happened to an 18 kpd doesn't come as a surprise and in no way diminishes the enormous upside that he has, but I wouldn't say that the has vaulted anybody just yet. His selection always smacked of a match committee that had put the cue in the rack for the season and was having a look at the future.

As for Collins, Ive watched him pretty closely and have always had/voiced concerns about his mobility and his ability to transfer what made him an AA at under 18's level. However, after seeing a bit of him late last year some of those concerns are starting to diminish. He will never be nor was he ever expected to be a rebounding full back, but for mine his mobility and willingness to move with the ball in hand and back himself against his direct opponent and mark the ball seems greatly improved.

Neither are sure things to make it in the long term (few are) hence the recruitment of further talls onto the list, but Im reasonably comfortable that Naughtons recruitment is not a reflection of where the coaching panel sees these 18/19 year olds (Collins in particular) going forward.

Anyways... this is a conversation for the other thread.
 
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TMoney22

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FWIW.

Joel Hamling was selected by the Cats at pick 32 in 2011. He went on to spend three years on their list without playing a game (or really coming close) and was delisted at age 21, about six months older than Collins will be next year. Despite Geelong needing key defenders for the future he was deemed unfit or unable to fill those roles at AFL level.

At age 22 he got his first taste of AFL football, playing 11 games in a season that ended in an elimination final. He played some ok football and showed some decent signs, but wasn't by any means an automatic selection or sure thing to make the grade.

At age 23 he was out of the side for the first half of the season before returning and playing some ordinary football for four or five games. After that it clicked: at the end of the season, his game came together and he played some terrific football, culminating in him playing a key role in a premiership. He then requested a trade to Fremantle.

"Oh, he won't be as good at Fremantle, our system was the reason for his spike in form;" "He won't perform as well in a bad team," went the normal cries post-trade. Well, they were wrong: he continues to go from strength to strength and look every bit of an AFL level key defender for Fremantle. His form simply spiked as a result of more experience, more knowledge, more confidence, and most importantly: more time.

SO much of a defender's skillset is learned. Natural talent for the position helps but it's absolutely not as necessary as it is to play other positions. It doesn't mean anybody could be a key defender, but it means that it can take some time for them to find their feet in the position. I'd be loathe to give up on a talented, young player in that position in such a short period of time. It really makes no sense.

I don't know if Collins will make it - I have concerns too. But **** me, the guy isn't even 20 yet, plays a very physical game style, hasn't had a full preseason and hasn't got an AFL level tank. It is way too early to be making a call on him.
So true.

In my armchair recruiters role i would never pick a KPD in the top 10 unless there was something very very special and the list already had guns in the midfield and forward line. It is easier for an average KPD to be more successful than an average mid or forward.

Can't look at the Noughton pick individually, i'm sure he will be a fine player, but have to look at it as a whole with letting Hamling go, getting Trengrove, resigning Roberts and Morris. Along with our other KPD's, that's probably 2 list spots that could have been used to bring in quality needs of speed and goal kicking.
 

Dannnnnnnnnn

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Interesting post on the Lions board:
As with a few others here, I was at the Vic Draft night, where Sam had our recruiter's ranking list. He read out sections of the list before names were called, predicting who we would pick according to the list, and was right every time, so we knew about Bailey and Starc about 10-15 minutes before they were called out.

Later in the night, we were free to peruse the list in detail.

Interesting points included:

- Hunter Clark was at 7
- Darcy Fogarty was at 5 (which surprised me because he sounded 'go homey')
- Confirming Bailey at 9, Starcevich at 10. Higgins at 12
- Wooller at 19.
- Ballenden 21. Payne 32.
- Richards, O'Brien, Ling and Constable not on list.
If accurate it really highlights just how varied club rankings are and can be. I think that fact gets missed a lot because of how similar so many amateur rankings are to each other (funny that).
 

CaptainMurphy

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Apologies if this has been asked, but wondering what the knock on Jack Higgins was? Thought he would have been a perfect fit for us at #16 and although Naughton at #9 looks great (and people who I have asked said the kid is a 200-game CHB) just a little perplexed at 2 back line players when outside speed and some goal kicking nous is what we seem to lack.

Makes me wonder WTF we were thinking when we gave Collins another 12 months. He needs to remove the digit from his ass and find a yard because at the moment he is in delist territory and the season hasn't even started.
Richards is much quicker than Higgins, and in my opinion (and obviously the club's) he's the better player. He definitely fits a need (speed and ball use) and was best available as well. No brainer selection.
 

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dogwatch

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Interesting post on the Lions board:

If accurate it really highlights just how varied club rankings are and can be. I think that fact gets missed a lot because of how similar so many amateur rankings are to each other (funny that).
I'd expect the Qld clubs in particular would place a fair weighting on how likely the player is to stick with them over the longer journey. That would throw up a few notable differences to Victorian clubs.

Richards was listed by a few phantoms as a top 10 pick and by nearly everyone as top 20, so to see the Lions didn't have him in their top 30 is pretty surprising. Perhaps they assumed he'd be gone by pick 30 and didn't bother finding a spot for him on the lower part of their list.
 

dogwatch

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Richards is much quicker than Higgins, and in my opinion (and obviously the club's) he's the better player. He definitely fits a need (speed and ball use) and was best available as well. No brainer selection.
Another Dalrymplesque feature of Richards is that he only came into high draft calculations in the last year or two (I think I read that he grew 15cm in a year). So he could still be on a significant improvement curve. It's also been suggested that Higgins has focussed so much on getting into the AFL (playing footy full time in 2017, etc) that he is already closer to his ceiling than many of his peers. Not sure what to make of that argument but there could be something in it.
 

Fossie 32

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THE Western Bulldogs have secured two left-footed defenders they ranked inside the draft’s top 10 after punting Jake Stringer to Essendon last month.

Recruiter Simon Dalrymple said the Dogs were “concerned” that the drop in talent at Friday night’s national draft would affect who was left at pick 16, the selection acquired after Stringer was traded.

But they pounced on 194cm intercepting defender Aaron Naughton at No.9 and then grabbed 185cm halfback dasher Ed Richards at No.16.


Aaron Naughton and Ed Richards will be the newest members of the kennel in 2018. Picture: Getty Images

“I was pessimistic (on Richards) because there were so many suitors between 10 and 15,” Dalrymple said.

“He was our next ranked player after Aaron.”

It’s understood the Dogs ranked Naughton at about No.6.

Richards was 45 minutes late to a meeting with Carlton last week, helping the Blues settle on Lochie O’Brien at No.10 instead of him.

But Dalrymple said the Carey Grammar student had an issue with his car that morning.

“From speaking to his teachers who have known him for five years, his character and his punctuality have been of the highest order,” Dalrymple said.

“We took the best player and he is also a good fit. He’ll work in well with Jason Johannisen, Shane Biggs, Bailey Williams and those guys after the retirements of Bob (Murphy) and (Matthew) Boydy.

“We’ve now restocked our back half of the ground for the future.”

Richards grew about 15cm in one year and plays with composure. The Heath Shaw-type is the grandson of Collingwood great Ron Richards and grand nephew of football icon Lou Richards.

“In Year 10 he was a tiny kid. But with that growth comes confidence and an ability to win your own ball a bit more and away you go,” Dalrymple said.

Naughton joins young key defenders Marcus Adams, Zaine Cordy, Fletcher Roberts, Kieran Collins and Lewis Young at Whitten Oval.

But Dalrymple said the Dogs simply had to take the best player at No.9.

“History is littered with examples of going too early on,” Dalrymple said.

“There’s a little bit of Easton Wood in him in the way he can intercept mark, and obviously he’s a bit bigger than Easton,” Dalrymple said.


“If he could only play on one type of player that would restrict him and his rating would’ve gone down, because we rate versatility really highly in our assessment criteria.

“He’s got the ability to intercept mark and read the cues along with his athleticism and competitiveness.

“We do have some promising key defenders, but it’s a competitive environment so the water level there is rising.”

Naughton turns 18 on Thursday but could debut next season after playing WAFL seniors this year.

The Dogs drafted Gippsland Power midfielder Callum Porter at No.74, who has won nine best-and-fairests.

“He’s a terrific country boy who loves his footy and Gippsland were glowing in their character assessment,” Dalrymple said.

“Talking to him last night I don’t think I’ve ever had a boy that, when I’ve rung to congratulate them, say to me that this is only the start and that I’m coming here to work and won’t let you down.

“It means so much to him and he’ll leave no stone unturned to make it a career.”

The Dogs will select one rookie tomorrow.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/teams/western-bulldogs/western-bulldogs-happy-with-draft-haul-in-young-guns-aaron-naughton-and-ed-richards/news-story/55313223eb07380369a19fbd8f70efa8


Sounds like we got lucky with Richards. He was 45 minutes late to his interview with Carlton, they were strongly linked to him.
Eds car problems. = Essendon fax machine and Westy
 

Norm De Guerre

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Another Dalrymplesque feature of Richards is that he only came into high draft calculations in the last year or two (I think I read that he grew 15cm in a year). So he could still be on a significant improvement curve. It's also been suggested that Higgins has focussed so much on getting into the AFL (playing footy full time in 2017, etc) that he is already closer to his ceiling than many of his peers. Not sure what to make of that argument but there could be something in it.
I'll take Dalrymple's bottom age/late bloomer fetish over the previous incumbents one for skinny athletes any day of the week!
 

Yojimbo

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Completely different players. Young had an amazing debut and follow up game where he was allowed to play as a loose man across half back, but when forced to play a more accountable game was more often than not caught completely out of position. That this happened to an 18 kpd doesn't come as a surprise and in no way diminishes the enormous upside that he has, but I wouldn't say that the has vaulted anybody just yet. His selection always smacked of a match committee that had put the cue in the rack for the season and was having a look at the future.

As for Collins, Ive watched him pretty closely and have always had concerns about his mobility and his ability to transfer what made him an AA at under 18's level. However, after seeing a bit of him late last year some of those concerns are starting to diminish. He will never be nor was he ever expected to be a rebounding full back, but for mine his mobility and willingness to move with the ball in hand and back himself against his direct opponent and mark the ball seems greatly improved.

Neither are sure things to make it in the long term (few are) hence the recruitment of further talls onto the list, but Im reasonably comfortable that Naughtons recruitment is not a reflection of where the coaching panel sees these 18/19 year olds (Collins in particular) going forward.

Anyways... this is a conversation for the other thread.
Great post and assessment, Norm. :thumbsu:
 

maddog37

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I'd expect the Qld clubs in particular would place a fair weighting on how likely the player is to stick with them over the longer journey. That would throw up a few notable differences to Victorian clubs.

Richards was listed by a few phantoms as a top 10 pick and by nearly everyone as top 20, so to see the Lions didn't have him in their top 30 is pretty surprising. Perhaps they assumed he'd be gone by pick 30 and didn't bother finding a spot for him on the lower part of their list.

Richards family ties would have made him a massive flight risk for the Bears.
 

Dannnnnnnnnn

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Richards was listed by a few phantoms as a top 10 pick and by nearly everyone as top 20, so to see the Lions didn't have him in their top 30 is pretty surprising.
This is kind of my point though. The phantoms we see are far too similar to each other. There is so much groupthink that goes on. You look at the Suns who make everybody go, "Wait, who?" with a top 20 pick and the Swans who shock everyone by taking Ling about 10 places earlier than anybody expected, Allen "falling" to 21, Murphy to 39, etc etc. Recruiter rankings vary so much, in a way that really isn't represented by the media's/amateur watchers' mocks.

I'm not having a go at the people who do the phantoms, my point is just that the lack of diversity in rankings makes people think it's much more of an exact science, in my opinion.
 

VitalDread

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Apologies if this has been asked, but wondering what the knock on Jack Higgins was? Thought he would have been a perfect fit for us at #16 and although Naughton at #9 looks great (and people who I have asked said the kid is a 200-game CHB) just a little perplexed at 2 back line players when outside speed and some goal kicking nous is what we seem to lack.

Makes me wonder WTF we were thinking when we gave Collins another 12 months. He needs to remove the digit from his ass and find a yard because at the moment he is in delist territory and the season hasn't even started.
Feel like it was more of a need to draft a half back instead of a small forward.
 

CaptainMurphy

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Interesting post on the Lions board:

If accurate it really highlights just how varied club rankings are and can be. I think that fact gets missed a lot because of how similar so many amateur rankings are to each other (funny that).
Interesting indeed, I've rated the Lions drafting recently.

I always liked the sound of Wooller too.
 

Wizard17

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Can get good small forwards late in the draft or as rookies. No need to go too early.

Needed a half back who can take over from Moyd and Murph. Wood's not exactly getting any younger.
 

King Harold

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FWIW.

Joel Hamling was selected by the Cats at pick 32 in 2011. He went on to spend three years on their list without playing a game (or really coming close) and was delisted at age 21, about six months older than Collins will be next year. Despite Geelong needing key defenders for the future he was deemed unfit or unable to fill those roles at AFL level.

At age 22 he got his first taste of AFL football, playing 11 games in a season that ended in an elimination final. He played some ok football and showed some decent signs, but wasn't by any means an automatic selection or sure thing to make the grade.

At age 23 he was out of the side for the first half of the season before returning and playing some ordinary football for four or five games. After that it clicked: at the end of the season, his game came together and he played some terrific football, culminating in him playing a key role in a premiership. He then requested a trade to Fremantle.

"Oh, he won't be as good at Fremantle, our system was the reason for his spike in form;" "He won't perform as well in a bad team," went the normal cries post-trade. Well, they were wrong: he continues to go from strength to strength and look every bit of an AFL level key defender for Fremantle. His form simply spiked as a result of more experience, more knowledge, more confidence, and most importantly: more time.

SO much of a defender's skillset is learned. Natural talent for the position helps but it's absolutely not as necessary as it is to play other positions. It doesn't mean anybody could be a key defender, but it means that it can take some time for them to find their feet in the position. I'd be loathe to give up on a talented, young player in that position in such a short period of time. It really makes no sense.

I don't know if Collins will make it - I have concerns too. But **** me, the guy isn't even 20 yet, plays a very physical game style, hasn't had a full preseason and hasn't got an AFL level tank. It is way too early to be making a call on him.
Very , very good post Dannnnn :thumbsu:
Amazed how quickly people will write off big blokes like him.
 

stefoid

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Two things caught my eye in that interview transcript:

1. But Dalrymple said the Dogs simply had to take the best player at No.9.
“History is littered with examples of going too early on,” Dalrymple said.


I wouldn't be surprised if he's STILL smarting over that selection of Christian Howard ahead of Nat Fyfe. Don't worry Simon, we should learn from our mistakes and move on ... and you've done just that. You're more than forgiven. On reflection it might have been quite influential in shaping how Dalrymple now goes about his business.​
He still takes players that demonstrate no ability to handle themselves under pressure - that other SA rookie, and Hamilton, for instance.

hmm, do we need to sack the talent scouts we have in SA?
 

immortalmike

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I'm a big fan of drafting best available especially when there is a perceived gulf in class. If Dalrymple thinks Naughton is Lever/Hurley/name star key back here reincarnate then he had to be picked.

Now if he's not and there were better players available then that's a discussion worth having. But drafting for needs gets you Christian Howard over Nat Fyfe (we needed speed and skills not another inside mid), it makes you miss out on superstars for role players.

I believe we have a coach that has already shown that he can fit a gameplan around what we have rather than what we haven't got. Quality wins flags, perfectly balanced lists rarely do.
 
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