List Mgmt. 2017 Trade and Free Agency Discussion - #Leverpulled and #Harleyrevved

[Topkent]

Could work. Though, depending on our strength down back, having the option of both TMac and Hogan forward is interesting. Hogan is nowhere near his best at present, but even having him lurking about in the forward 50 means he takes a decent defender away from the oppo. Having both him and TMac down there starts to be a real headache.

Yep agreed, just think with Weiderman hopefully developing it would be nice to have a bloke who can take the gorillas. I think the days of someone hogans size playing at FF are dead.
Don't mind him playing CHF into the future but I'm loving TMac forward and Hogan isn't above a development phase down back.

 

[Gysberts2Bate]

Tom Mcdonald is doing a better job for our structure forward than Hogan as the FF. Hogan might kick more goals but Tmac leads better, tackles and contests better.

Hogan could learn better leading and body use back as well. He was a CHB as a junior

You don't play someone who has one of the best records of any forward in their first 50 games ever in defence just for the heck of it.

 

[schmuttt]

I can understand where TK is coming from in regards to the playing in defence stuff, but I think sometimes we forget how young Hogan is.

 

[Topkent]

You don't play someone who has one of the best records of any forward in their first 50 games ever in defence just for the heck of it.

Who gives a s**t about his first 50 games. Doesn't mean he can't be developed. He ain't the next Wayne Carey. Still has alot to prove before he is even a good AFL forward.

If it was good enough for David Neitz to play in defence I think it's good enough for Hogan. He still has a lot of craft to learn and playing in defence is one good way to learn it.

I can understand where TK is coming from in regards to the playing in defence stuff, but I think sometimes we forget how young Hogan is.

22 right? Still young enough to learn different things. Some of our supporters need to give up on the notion of him being the hero FF because he won't be.

 

[Gysberts2Bate]

Who gives a s**t about his first 50 games. Doesn't mean he can't be developed. He ain't the next Wayne Carey. Still has alot to prove before he is even a good AFL forward.

If it was good enough for David Neitz to play in defence I think it's good enough for Hogan. He still has a lot of craft to learn and playing in defence is one good way to learn it.


22 right? Still young enough to learn different things. Some of our supporters need to give up on the notion of him being the hero FF because he won't be.

Idk I think his first 50 games are a pretty good indication of how good he can be as a forward. I'd be inclined to keep playing him as a forward to give him the chance to keep learning there.

 

[Pedantic]

Who gives a s**t about his first 50 games. Doesn't mean he can't be developed. He ain't the next Wayne Carey. Still has alot to prove before he is even a good AFL forward.

If it was good enough for David Neitz to play in defence I think it's good enough for Hogan. He still has a lot of craft to learn and playing in defence is one good way to learn it.


22 right? Still young enough to learn different things. Some of our supporters need to give up on the notion of him being the hero FF because he won't be.

What rubbish, he is already a good AFL forward. There are only about 10 blokes in the comp who can average 2+ goals a game over a whole season as a KPF and he's one of them.

 

[Topkent]

What rubbish, he is already a good AFL forward. There are only about 10 blokes in the comp who can average 2+ goals a game over a whole season as a KPF and he's one of them.

There is 18 teams and he isn't in the top 6 in the comp which makes him an average key forward in the AFL. Dont be sensitive to the wording.
I can only have my opinion on what I see of him and despite kicking 90ish goals in his first years he is far from the finished product.

Why are people defensive about the idea of him playing back? Doesn't mean he can't go forward again.
Tom Mcdonald has provided the same if not more structure to our forward line than Hogan and he also tackles chases and plays in the ruck. He also leads more than Hogan.
Hogan was drafted after being an AA chb.
We are crying out for someone who can take on the stronger blokes
Worse case scenario Hogan learns a little more from the better wrestling forwards because he sucks at it now.

 

[Gysberts2Bate]

There is 18 teams and he isn't in the top 6 in the comp which makes him an average key forward in the AFL. Dont be sensitive to the wording.
I can only have my opinion on what I see of him and despite kicking 90ish goals in his first years he is far from the finished product.

Why are people defensive about the idea of him playing back? Doesn't mean he can't go forward again.
Tom Mcdonald has provided the same if not more structure to our forward line than Hogan and he also tackles chases and plays in the ruck. He also leads more than Hogan.
Hogan was drafted after being an AA chb.
We are crying out for someone who can take on the stronger blokes
Worse case scenario Hogan learns a little more from the better wrestling forwards because he sucks at it now.

Because it's a waste of time and we already have OMac and Frost there and the coaches aren't going to give up a fully fit Hogan's three goals a game just so he can piss around in the backline when TMac is probably a better option there as well. Once Watts comes back the Watts-Hogan dynamic will be huge for us as well.

 

[Topkent]

Because it's a waste of time and we already have OMac and Frost there and the coaches aren't going to give up a fully fit Hogan's three goals a game just so he can piss around in the backline when TMac is probably a better option there as well. Once Watts comes back the Watts-Hogan dynamic will be huge for us as well.

We have been monstered by marking forwards all year and people were saying we should get May and or Lever. We also have 0 depth behind those 3.
Hogan has never averaged 3 goals a game and with the out the back goals and zone defence in vogue his average isn't just going to increase every year if he doesn't learn different ways to kick goals. Tom Mcdonald is a far more rounded footballer and no doubt that has come from developing at either end of the ground

 

[TheCount]

I agree with Topkent that a run in the backline would probably do Jesse good ... but not right now ... give him a few games to get back up to speed and get comfortable with just playing again before throwing him in the deep end to learn something pretty foreign for him at this point.

 

[Gysberts2Bate]

We have been monstered by marking forwards all year and people were saying we should get May and or Lever. We also have 0 depth behind those 3.
Hogan has never averaged 3 goals a game and with the out the back goals and zone defence in vogue his average isn't just going to increase every year if he doesn't learn different ways to kick goals. Tom Mcdonald is a far more rounded footballer and no doubt that has come from developing at either end of the ground

I'm almost certain that playing forward is a better way to learn how to kick goals than playing as the third tall in defence, because you can bet that the coaching staff aren't going to play Hogan as a key defender ahead of Frost or Oscar. I don't think Hogan is going to magically come into the team and start playing at a high level as a defender after 5 years of playing as forward, and he will be a huge liability to the side if he's suddenly tried as our solution to the 'marking forwards' that have been killing us - or at least were two months ago but haven't been a concern since Ben Brown in round 9. It's not like Neitz who played as a defender his first three years in the AFL. Hogan has been trained as a forward and until his form slump at the end of last year he was tracking to kick 50-60 goals in 2016. He's also kicked three in three of his five games this year. That's a better indication of how good of a forward he is than baseless judgments about how he's somehow no longer fit to play there after he played some huge games for us when he was last in form.

 

[Cannon82]

I'm almost certain that playing forward is a better way to learn how to kick goals than playing as the third tall in defence, because you can bet that the coaching staff aren't going to play Hogan as a key defender ahead of Frost or Oscar.

Actually I think seeing the (lack of) movement of the forward line from the defender's perspective might help Hogan fine tune his own game. Seeing what the shoe is like on the other foot is something some players need to experience themselves. I'm a fan of moving players around to give them a feel for each role in the team.

 

[Captain Jack]

Actually I think seeing the (lack of) movement of the forward line from the defender's perspective might help Hogan fine tune his own game. Seeing what the shoe is like on the other foot is something some players need to experience themselves. I'm a fan of moving players around to give them a feel for each role in the team.

I agree, but why move him to the backline to achieve that? Get him up on the wing/on ball, as he did at times yesterday. He's a great field kick, moves well, provides a target up-field, and it gets him involved in the game - important especially during this period when he's getting back up to speed after the lay-off.

 

[LeverPuller]

JJ signs with the Dogs, here comes Lever to Melbourne...

 

[Proper Gander]

Actually I think seeing the (lack of) movement of the forward line from the defender's perspective might help Hogan fine tune his own game. Seeing what the shoe is like on the other foot is something some players need to experience themselves. I'm a fan of moving players around to give them a feel for each role in the team.

I like the idea of introducing a swingman option, or at least giving it a burl. Gives the coach just one more option up his sleeve, and is remarkably difficult to coach against that kind of movement.

 

[Cannon82]

I agree, but why move him to the backline to achieve that? Get him up on the wing/on ball, as he did at times yesterday. He's a great field kick, moves well, provides a target up-field, and it gets him involved in the game - important especially during this period when he's getting back up to speed after the lay-off.

Its much of a muchness. I think floating around the backline looking for a key forward to provide that outlet lead would be a bit of an eye opener. He already gets up the ground to the wing a bit, so it might not be that much of a change for him.

 

[Tulip]

ANB is going to be a really solid player. Having the chance to play all season has shown that. Definitely the best of our second tier at this stage (eg Harmes, Kent, Wagner, Bugg, JKH etc).

I'd be thrilled with either Lever or Z.Jones this trade period. Both fill a need.

 

[Tulip]

Who gives a s**t about his first 50 games. Doesn't mean he can't be developed. He ain't the next Wayne Carey. Still has alot to prove before he is even a good AFL forward.

You really post some weird s**t.

 

[Theseventhhamster]

Hogan would be a gun defender. Would also be a waste unless Oscar suddenly becomes a gun forward.

 

[Topkent]

You really post some weird s**t.

Two 40 goal seasons doesn't make him a finished product mate. There are a lot of things watching him that he still does poorly as a forward and he's still quite one dimensional. He doesn't get enough of it on the lead and relies a lot on the mark he took at the top of the square where he gets a clean run an jump.

He wouldn't be the first player that defenders worked out how to play

 

[LeverPuller]

Two 40 goal seasons doesn't make him a finished product mate. There are a lot of things watching him that he still does poorly as a forward and he's still quite one dimensional. He doesn't get enough of it on the lead and relies a lot on the mark he took at the top of the square where he gets a clean run an jump.

He wouldn't be the first player that defenders worked out how to play

Given he's played 50 games of footy and 25 of those have been with at least one of massive contract pressure or a dying father, I think he gets a pass. He kicked 40 last year despite being not as good with contract s**t being in the papers almost every day, he's had one okay game and one rubbish game in Rounds 1 and 2 before losing his old man the day on ANZAC Day and then being diagnosed with cancer himself.

He's also been the centre of attention and double- or triple-teamed for much of year 2 and even yesterday he was copping 3-on-1s because Carlton were scared as s**t of him ripping them a new one, and it allowed Tommy Mac to get off the chain and kick four. I'm happy to leave him there and actually try and develop some chemistry with TMac, because in fact it might just be the making of Hoges. If he can start to use that monstrous run-rate and tank that we actually know he has, he can be huge as a Cloke-style CHF while we use TMac deep. That's a much better setup and doesn't * with a backline that's actually finally got two KPDs that are AFL standard.

Not to mention, you are forgetting among all of this that Hogan is not quick by any standard, and he's not particularly tall - Oscar is actually taller than him. What sort of matchups do you envisage? If it were the Crows, does he go to Jenkins who he is probably slower than and definitely shorter than? Or does he go to Tex who he is definitely slower than? Given how quick a number of KPFs are - Buddy, NRoo, JRoo, Hipwood to name some off the top - I think he'll get burnt badly on that side.

Just because TMac has come like a bolt from the blue doesn't mean we just toss Hogan in the backline. I'd actually love for them to develop some chemistry, and then once Weid comes on that bit more we use TMac as an all-round swingman who we can drop in anywhere to make an impact. Put Hogan in his true role, full ground CHF a la Cloke a couple of years back. Run Weid out of the square. When you need an impact, you line up with all of Weid-TMac-Hogan in F50 and stretch defences. If you are getting towelled, TMac drops back as the extra man.

 

[Tulip]

Two 40 goal seasons doesn't make him a finished product mate. There are a lot of things watching him that he still does poorly as a forward and he's still quite one dimensional. He doesn't get enough of it on the lead and relies a lot on the mark he took at the top of the square where he gets a clean run an jump.

He wouldn't be the first player that defenders worked out how to play

I didn't say he's the finished product, but he's pretty clearly a 'good AFL player'

 

[Blackas87]

Hogan, TMac, Watts forward line.

Lever, OMac, Frost back line.

 

[Topkent]

Given he's played 50 games of footy and 25 of those have been with at least one of massive contract pressure or a dying father, I think he gets a pass. He kicked 40 last year despite being not as good with contract s**t being in the papers almost every day, he's had one okay game and one rubbish game in Rounds 1 and 2 before losing his old man the day on ANZAC Day and then being diagnosed with cancer himself.

He's also been the centre of attention and double- or triple-teamed for much of year 2 and even yesterday he was copping 3-on-1s because Carlton were scared as s**t of him ripping them a new one, and it allowed Tommy Mac to get off the chain and kick four. I'm happy to leave him there and actually try and develop some chemistry with TMac, because in fact it might just be the making of Hoges. If he can start to use that monstrous run-rate and tank that we actually know he has, he can be huge as a Cloke-style CHF while we use TMac deep. That's a much better setup and doesn't **** with a backline that's actually finally got two KPDs that are AFL standard.

Not to mention, you are forgetting among all of this that Hogan is not quick by any standard, and he's not particularly tall - Oscar is actually taller than him. What sort of matchups do you envisage? If it were the Crows, does he go to Jenkins who he is probably slower than and definitely shorter than? Or does he go to Tex who he is definitely slower than? Given how quick a number of KPFs are - Buddy, NRoo, JRoo, Hipwood to name some off the top - I think he'll get burnt badly on that side.

Just because TMac has come like a bolt from the blue doesn't mean we just toss Hogan in the backline. I'd actually love for them to develop some chemistry, and then once Weid comes on that bit more we use TMac as an all-round swingman who we can drop in anywhere to make an impact. Put Hogan in his true role, full ground CHF a la Cloke a couple of years back. Run Weid out of the square. When you need an impact, you line up with all of Weid-TMac-Hogan in F50 and stretch defences. If you are getting towelled, TMac drops back as the extra man.

Just to be clear here I'm not saying he has played poorly, but he's a pretty limited forward at the moment and I think his first year he surprised everyone and has been worked out now.
I wasn't talking about him going back next week either just floated the idea. If Omac goes down next week I'd like to see them give Hogan the job back there and if he's too slow and short for that he won't be a very effective forward either then because defenders are getting taller and quicker.

 

[schmuttt]

ANB is going to be a really solid player. Having the chance to play all season has shown that. Definitely the best of our second tier at this stage (eg Harmes, Kent, Wagner, Bugg, JKH etc).

I'd be thrilled with either Lever or Z.Jones this trade period. Both fill a need.

I agree with this, I've really warmed to Zak Jones.