List Mgmt. 2017 - Trading and Free Agency

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ydraw

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196cm is the new 193cm. Kids born in the 90s have much more chance of reaching their genetically possible height due to massive advances in medical technology and knowledge of nutrition since then.

Guys like Pavlich, Brown etc were born in the 70's when mothers still smoked during pregnancy and kids still got things like chicken pox at a young age. I'm about the same age as those guys and I am 194cm and played all my (rubbish) career as ruckman. 193cm was very tall for that era. It's not any more.
 

Kram

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196cm is the new 193cm. Kids born in the 90s have much more chance of reaching their genetically possible height due to massive advances in medical technology and knowledge of nutrition since then.

Guys like Pavlich, Brown etc were born in the 70's when mothers still smoked during pregnancy and kids still got things like chicken pox at a young age. I'm about the same age as those guys and I am 194cm and played all my (rubbish) career as ruckman. 193cm was very tall for that era. It's not any more.
Pav and Brown were born in 81.
 

Hazelsnuts

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They were also drafted nearly 20 years ago. The game has moved on a fair bit since then.
Not that much, pretty simple game footy.
Don't know how much you understand or think about it apart from being over 195cm as a pre-requisite if that's what you mean.
I reckon I'd back those two in today at their height against most KPD's.
How tall is Buddy? Does he play as a contested marking forward?
Deliver the ball with quality ball movement and use and the argument regarding height : 2- 3cms becomes inconsequential.
The best defenders aren't huge- Rance, Hurley, Davis - could go on and on, they rely a lot on pressure on delivery to their opponent to even the contest.
A lot of posters on here are keyboard warriors, who eat stats and figures and know ...ck all about footy.
 

ydraw

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Not that much, pretty simple game footy.
Don't know how much you understand or think about it apart from being over 195cm as a pre-requisite if that's what you mean.
I reckon I'd back those two in today at their height against most KPD's.
How tall is Buddy? Does he play as a contested marking forward?
Deliver the ball with quality ball movement and use and the argument regarding height : 2- 3cms becomes inconsequential.
The best defenders aren't huge- Rance, Hurley, Davis - could go on and on, they rely a lot on pressure on delivery to their opponent to even the contest.
A lot of posters on here are keyboard warriors, who eat stats and figures and know ...ck all about footy.
There are hardly any key forwards under 195cm in the AFL. People are on average taller than they were 20 years ago. Defenders are taller, forwards are taller.
 

Hazelsnuts

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Agree to disagree when talking about this.
Ever boxed? Heard of reach?
Lanky builds have generally longer reach.
So standing height has relevance but not when you also take into account : vertical leap, reach, physicality and motor.
Get the ball distributed correctly more often to the forwards (capable forwards) and that will result in better forward efficiency.
I don't know the stats but I bet contested marking out and out as a stat would result in far less goals than better movement and good leading forwards.
 

ydraw

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So standing height has relevance but not when you also take into account : vertical leap, reach, physicality and motor.
Get the ball distributed correctly more often to the forwards (capable forwards) and that will result in better forward efficiency.
I don't know the stats but I bet contested marking out and out as a stat would result in far less goals than better movement and good leading forwards.
Yeah in a perfect world it's better to have it delivered on your tit on a lead.

But not every forward entry is perfect. And having tall players taking a contested mark means that those less than perfect entries can still results in marks or ground spillages. Instead of, you know, just having McGovern and Hurn mark everything, which is what happens when you don't play any key forwards.

If having every forward entry be a perfect hit up pass was an option then there'd be no difference if your forward was 180cm or 200cm. But there is a difference, and that's why teams play 200cm guys in the forward line.
 

Hazelsnuts

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Yeah in a perfect world it's better to have it delivered on your tit on a lead.

But not every forward entry is perfect. And having tall players taking a contested mark means that those less than perfect entries can still results in marks or ground spillages. Instead of, you know, just having McGovern and Hurn mark everything, which is what happens when you don't play any key forwards.

If having every forward entry be a perfect hit up pass was an option then there'd be no difference if your forward was 180cm or 200cm. But there is a difference, and that's why teams play 200cm guys in the forward line.
I don't know what you are on about with Hurn and McGovern in the last post.
Again poor entries, bombing it in is the mismatch not contested marking on most occasions.
Hurn is a marking beast heh?
McGovern plays the loose defender like Johnson, but does have a great contested grab.
Key to this dilemma - not frequency of entries but quality.
For what it's worth someone like Kersten is a great lead up forward, but below average an contested mark - so play to his strengths. He also needs some mongrel as do all of the big fellas.
Tabs was great when he looked pissed off in the game he kicked four earlier in the year.
Attitude and appetite for the contest will beat some limp tall who has no balls, play hard, intimidate them and make em piss.
Quality ball use is the key.
At the end of the day don't reach for a player just because he is a certain height, if he's rated in the teens downgrade and get him in the teens.
We also need elite skills and ball use - pretty important skill set in case we haven't noticed.
 

Hazelsnuts

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Yeah mate - delivery!
No structure forward of the ball and piss poor decision making.
Most of those marks were uncontested, kicks falling short and misplaced to lack of forward movement is the issue.
Put Fyfe up there - out of the midfield, our contested ball goes to shit.
I bet you would back him in a contested marking contest against a direct opponent even against McGovern who is the best in the league, he would at least even the contest.
The sweeper is an issue we have an issue with against pressing up and leaving an open forward line and our players inability to spot up targets and hold up play if nothing is on offer.
 

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ydraw

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The sweeper is an issue we have an issue with against pressing up and leaving an open forward line and our players inability to spot up targets and hold up play if nothing is on offer.
We have this issue mostly because we aren't playing anyone in the forward line. It's not like our players are particularly bad kicks of the football. We are just making it harder for them by making sure the only option is hitting a pinpoint pass to a leading forward.

Our forward entries will continue to look terrible until we change the forward structure. Which likely won't happen while Lyon is coach.
 

theGav56

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This is getting .....en hard work !
Do not reach for a tall unless he shows exceptional talent and potential.
Go best available, agree on a beast mid/ball getter that can be rolled through back and forward - Fyfe/Mundy type.
I reckon we are getting hung up on centimetres when talking about talls - leap, football smarts and ball winning ability shit all over a monster KPF with no smarts or footy nouse.
Pav and Jonathan Brown weren't over 193cm.
The Saints picked McCartin - spud.
I still reckon Oscar Allen with a pick 16 - 30. Can clunk, athletic and great below the knees.
Sage words.

We have a fantastically resourced recruitment department, and I am sure they se options we don't. I am also confident that they won't be looking at this draft and thinking we have to solve all our issues right now.

I wonder how far into the future they watch players? Much more difficult with talls, and we won't be the only club liking the look of 2018.
 

theGav56

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I'm on about last weekend's game where we got destroyed every time the ball went in high because we had no key forwards to make a contest.

We had Suban playing on McGovern.
The thing about that mismatch is that we should be able to use it to advantage. We lose it if we send in bombs that need a mark. But maybe if we tumble the ball along the ground Suban has an edge. Or, Suban becomes a great option for use as a decoy.

That is the same with most matchups.
 

ydraw

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The thing about that mismatch is that we should be able to use it to advantage. We lose it if we send in bombs that need a mark. But maybe if we tumble the ball along the ground Suban has an edge. Or, Suban becomes a great option for use as a decoy.
He's not a great option to use as a decoy though because the opposition can play anyone on them they want. That's the entire reason behind playing key forwards. If you try to fudge it and play a guy who's undersized there, the opposition just plays whoever they want on him and that frees up McGovern to pick and choose which contests he gets involved in.

Teams used to do exactly that when we played Mayne as an undersized key forward and they are doing it to us again now when we're playing Kersten as an undersized key forward (Geelong played Tuohy on Kersten and he flogged him).

If you play someone who is a genuine marking threat then the opposition defenders have no choice but to man them up with a KPD. And that's when you can get mismatches because the defenders don't have the luxury of going to whichever contest they think is the most important. Which is exactly what happened in the Essendon game because Essendon had to man up McCarthy first (who was at the time seen as our #1 forward) and then the next guy in line had to choose between marking up Taberner or Kersten.

Again, that's the whole point of playing a proper forward structure.

Looking at it from our defensive point of view - if we play against a team with only 2 key forwards, the choice for us is very easy. Hamling takes one and Johnson takes the other. But if they have 3, then Logue has to also be responsible for one and that's where we can get exploited.
 

FD2646

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I agree we really need a genuine kpf target, however on a different note, if Balic leaves, what would be the chance of acquiring Blake acres from the saints....good West Perth boy and I think he could develop into a Mundy type (without the same foot skills but servicible).
 

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When would they do that?

We have caught up so quickly moving the ball out of defense that our forward line is still learning when to run back to goal. There isn't six guys sitting in attacking fifty waiting for the ball to get kicked to them, they have pressed up and then the odd time they don't it's one guy on three opposition defenders who hang back.
 

go_the_dockers

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Our cat A keep playing for peel , getting cat B will be a waste of time , until Sandi,Johnson,spurr ,suban ,sutty , sheriden ,ballas cur out , cat A or B will be playing in wafl .
They are a free hit. No draft picks, outside salary cap. No risk.
 

Cobbler

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Rampant Adelaide side and McGovern hasn't done much. His hacked shot on goal from 15m out with little pressure for a behind a highlight.

Will add some junk goals in second half.
 
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