List Mgmt. 2018-19 DFA & SSP Period (Midseason Draft after Round 10)

[Zuribagger]

we're lamenting finbar and cottrell? after one pre-season? wasn't aware.........

I am. Reasoning is for the List management thread but Finbar is a Xavier mate of BSOS - smacks of nepotism. We could have got much better value with that pick than another tall.

Cottrell is long term project - looks interesting - but for where we are at we need more impact now. We have the talent and will get more at the top end of future drafts. We don’t need long term risky projects.

Just my opinion....

 

[Gavstar]

Depends how we're approaching the pick, I suppose Jim.

If we've identified a need for a small forward, he looks a good choice. Small but still strong, good balance, goal sense, decent pair of hands, nice acceleration, makes repeat efforts. He's not a Rioli, but I'm not sure we should set the bar that high for the mid-season rookie draft.

He may not be "best available" though, if that's the approach we take. Unless there's someone too good to pass up though, filling an area of immediate need makes a lot of sense. The opportunistic small forward role is also one that I really do believe you can just plug a player into without them having trained all that much with the group. A mid or defender, on the other hand, probably needs a bit more time to gel.

Adam Tipungwuti might be worth taking a punt on over Lowson?

 

[thylacine60]

so finbar another partner pony like mark austin?

 

[Coona Blues]

so finbar another partner pony like mark austin?

According to some.
Was a surprising pick. Almost nobody knew anything about him, and most believe would be available in the Rookie draft. Unlike some, I will not write him off yet. SOS and surely others have seen something. Impossible to believe he is one man's choice, despite the association.

Medium sizer, grown quickly to pretty much key position height. Spent plenty of junior time injured, so unheralded. Will certainly take time, but may
just be a diamond in the rough, under developed and still growing, thus "fragile" body. I am being quietly patient. Gets a default pass for season 1, but needs to show something next year, both for his career and the recruitment team's credibility.

We have waited 2 1/2 years on LeBois, I reckon Finbar has shown more in his first couple of games despite currently being "overfaced".

 

[Teagueeee15]

I don’t see how a case could be made for Lowson to be taken ahead of Hibberd. I think we should be taking the player who we think has the best chance of being a good player, rather than reaching based on needs. I’ve seen a fair bit of both players and Hibberd has been playing at a high standard in the VFL for some time, while Lowson seems to be in a purple patch of form. I’m wary that this may be just a strong 5 game spell from him and that he will revert back to being a solid VFL player like he was before.

 

[Coona Blues]

Surely the "overagers" under consideration would be Dunkley. Hirst and Hanrahan

Two "clips" taken from AFL Draft Central from the weekend.

17 Cody Hirst


The smart wingman ran hard all day, with most of his 31 disposals being won in the Eastern back half (six rebounds). The impressive midfielder possesses clean hands and skills, always finding a target by foot even when there seemingly is no option. On a day where most players opted to kick it long down the line or bomb it inside 50, Hirst’s clever ball use stood out. Covers the ground with ease and loves to take a bounce. Hirst had a huge last quarter and willed his team over the line.

15 Angus Hanrahan


Starting on the wing, the top—ager showcased his signature class and polish but also his two-way running in another strong performance. Finishing with 27 disposals and nine marks, perhaps the most telling stats for Hanrahan was his four rebounds and six inside 50s, highlighting a willingness to work both ways for the Dragons. Kicked a show-stopping goal on his opposite foot from the boundary and would’ve had a day out had he taken two opportunities running into the goals in the second and last quarters. Was a class above in the first half and was the leading disposal winner at the main break but drifted out early in the 4th when the game was in the balance. Sound performance from the wingman and is building a strong case to be selected in the mid-season/end of season draft.

 

[Pafloyul]

Depends how we're approaching the pick, I suppose Jim.

If we've identified a need for a small forward, he looks a good choice. Small but still strong, good balance, goal sense, decent pair of hands, nice acceleration, makes repeat efforts. He's not a Rioli, but I'm not sure we should set the bar that high for the mid-season rookie draft.

He may not be "best available" though, if that's the approach we take. Unless there's someone too good to pass up though, filling an area of immediate need makes a lot of sense. The opportunistic small forward role is also one that I really do believe you can just plug a player into without them having trained all that much with the group. A mid or defender, on the other hand, probably needs a bit more time to gel.

Who's judges the level of, "too good"?. At this stage, they are all project players which is why I think we should be drafting who we think will be the best chance to make it long term. As it stands, our record with selecting rookies has become worse as it goes along, I don't think we approach it right.

 

[Jimmae]

Depends how we're approaching the pick, I suppose Jim.

If we've identified a need for a small forward, he looks a good choice. Small but still strong, good balance, goal sense, decent pair of hands, nice acceleration, makes repeat efforts. He's not a Rioli, but I'm not sure we should set the bar that high for the mid-season rookie draft.

He may not be "best available" though, if that's the approach we take. Unless there's someone too good to pass up though, filling an area of immediate need makes a lot of sense. The opportunistic small forward role is also one that I really do believe you can just plug a player into without them having trained all that much with the group. A mid or defender, on the other hand, probably needs a bit more time to gel.

If you want those things, have a look at Hirst, who seems to have come on a bit more this season than I'd expected.

 

[Blue__Balls]

Who's judges the level of, "too good"?. At this stage, they are all project players which is why I think we should be drafting who we think will be the best chance to make it long term. As it stands, our record with selecting rookies has become worse as it goes along, I don't think we approach it right.

The recruitment team...? Not sure what your question addresses.

Half our list are project players, seems more prudent to fill a structural gap with a ready-made player, so we can function better collectively.

 

[Blue__Balls]

If you want those things, have a look at Hirst, who seems to have come on a bit more this season than I'd expected.

Will do, haven't seen any vision of him as yet.

 

[Zuribagger]

Think you’re both saying the same thing, ie let’s pick someone with a chance at senior selection this year while Doc and Pickett are out.

 

[Pafloyul]

The recruitment team...? Not sure what your question addresses.

Half our list are project players, seems more prudent to fill a structural gap with a ready-made player, so we can function better collectively.

I'd rather they try to cement a best 22 that will perform when the real stuff is happening, if they are there. You want another Fasolo or Lobbe then, fine, but just because we need them 'now' in a particular position, doesn't mean they'll increase their output.

 

[Bamboo Harvester]

The recruitment team...? Not sure what your question addresses.

Half our list are project players, seems more prudent to fill a structural gap with a ready-made player, so we can function better collectively.

Our project players are nowhere near AFL standard at the moment.

They would most likely be looking at a 19/20yo who is more ready to step up to the plate, especially when you can get a 6 month 'head start' of development in the system. Dunkley being the obvious example.

We'd be hoping that the mature age talent will be walking through the door during the next trade period.

 

[FitzroyBlueBagger]

He's solid, but he's not at the level required for our pick in this draft just yet. There's much more promising kids, and players like Mitch Hibberd that are worthy of that top 3 selection we'll have.

As to what we might do with a second selection, I'm going to wait and see how the talent pool crystallises.

Cheers

 

[bigdog43]

Surely the "overagers" under consideration would be Dunkley. Hirst and Hanrahan

Two "clips" taken from AFL Draft Central from the weekend.

17 Cody Hirst


The smart wingman ran hard all day, with most of his 31 disposals being won in the Eastern back half (six rebounds). The impressive midfielder possesses clean hands and skills, always finding a target by foot even when there seemingly is no option. On a day where most players opted to kick it long down the line or bomb it inside 50, Hirst’s clever ball use stood out. Covers the ground with ease and loves to take a bounce. Hirst had a huge last quarter and willed his team over the line.

15 Angus Hanrahan


Starting on the wing, the top—ager showcased his signature class and polish but also his two-way running in another strong performance. Finishing with 27 disposals and nine marks, perhaps the most telling stats for Hanrahan was his four rebounds and six inside 50s, highlighting a willingness to work both ways for the Dragons. Kicked a show-stopping goal on his opposite foot from the boundary and would’ve had a day out had he taken two opportunities running into the goals in the second and last quarters. Was a class above in the first half and was the leading disposal winner at the main break but drifted out early in the 4th when the game was in the balance. Sound performance from the wingman and is building a strong case to be selected in the mid-season/end of season draft.

I find this really interesting. My initial reaction to a mid season draft was that we should select a player that could immediately play and have an impact. Therefore we should be selecting the best available small forward in the country because in my opinion it is our most glaring hole. However, how many times have we seen a top ager from the TAC cup shoot up the draft order after finally getting their injuries right? If SOS could identify a player that is shooting up the draft board it could almost work out as an actual top 30 pick because someone like Hirst could eventually end up there by the time the actual draft rolls around in November. It is quite a big reach but astute drafters could certainly take advantage of this moving forward.

 

[Coona Blues]

I find this really interesting. My initial reaction to a mid season draft was that we should select a player that could immediately play and have an impact. Therefore we should be selecting the best available small forward in the country because in my opinion it is our most glaring hole. However, how many times have we seen a top ager from the TAC cup shoot up the draft order after finally getting their injuries right? If SOS could identify a player that is shooting up the draft board it could almost work out as an actual top 30 pick because someone like Hirst could eventually end up there by the time the actual draft rolls around in November. It is quite a big reach but astute drafters could certainly take advantage of this moving forward.

The more I look in to this draft, the more I like Hirst for our needs. Undersized at the moment, but preseason 176 to 178cm current suggests growing. Weight gains would be aided by a few extra months in an AFL environment. Missed most of last year through injury, when playing as a rebounder. Now playing mid/wing, and can hit the scoreboard. Disposal write up clinches it for me, need more and more players who can find and hit the best option. Seemingly good fitness base, where Hanrahan seems to fade out. Broke records for the combine agility test. So much to like.

Could fit any of three needs small defender, pressure forward or outside mid. Dunkley looks a good prospect, but we already have the conundrum of fitting Kennedy and Stocker in to our engine room.

While Hibberd and Gregson could be good immediate options, I always believed that our recruitment team would take our best long term option. I am not enamoured by the rucks in the draft, so adding to our speed and importantly, ball retention mix seems logical.

 

[bmaurizio]

The more I look in to this draft, the more I like Hirst for our needs. Undersized at the moment, but preseason 176 to 178cm current suggests growing. Weight gains would be aided by a few extra months in an AFL environment. Missed most of last year through injury, when playing as a rebounder. Now playing mid/wing, and can hit the scoreboard. Disposal write up clinches it for me, need more and more players who can find and hit the best option. Seemingly good fitness base, where Hanrahan seems to fade out. Broke records for the combine agility test. So much to like.

Could fit any of three needs small defender, pressure forward or outside mid. Dunkley looks a good prospect, but we already have the conundrum of fitting Kennedy and Stocker in to our engine room.

While Hibberd and Gregson could be good immediate options, I always believed that our recruitment team would take our best long term option. I am not enamoured by the rucks in the draft, so adding to our speed and importantly, ball retention mix seems logical.

Agree with you totally, accurate disposal should be mandatory its absurd having footballers on the park that have poor disposal, a major deficiency.
We hope for good footy IQ, endurance and agility too but not easy to find in any one candidate.
Players should be at least reasonable in some of these basic aspects.

 

[Blue__Balls]

The more I look in to this draft, the more I like Hirst for our needs. Undersized at the moment, but preseason 176 to 178cm current suggests growing. Weight gains would be aided by a few extra months in an AFL environment. Missed most of last year through injury, when playing as a rebounder. Now playing mid/wing, and can hit the scoreboard. Disposal write up clinches it for me, need more and more players who can find and hit the best option. Seemingly good fitness base, where Hanrahan seems to fade out. Broke records for the combine agility test. So much to like.

Could fit any of three needs small defender, pressure forward or outside mid. Dunkley looks a good prospect, but we already have the conundrum of fitting Kennedy and Stocker in to our engine room.

While Hibberd and Gregson could be good immediate options, I always believed that our recruitment team would take our best long term option. I am not enamoured by the rucks in the draft, so adding to our speed and importantly, ball retention mix seems logical.

Disposal write up from one game vs. disposal write up from another:

ROUND 7:
The smart wingman ran hard all day, with most of his 31 disposals being won in the Eastern back half (six rebounds). The impressive midfielder possesses clean hands and skills, always finding a target by foot even when there seemingly is no option. On a day where most players opted to kick it long down the line or bomb it inside 50, Hirst’s clever ball use stood out. Covers the ground with ease and loves to take a bounce. Hirst had a huge last quarter and willed his team over the line.

ROUND 5:
The athletic small buzzed around the ground well, finding most of his ball between the arcs despite moving forward later on. Showed a good leap and laid a fantastic holding the ball tackle after a solid hit on Connor Budarick. While his pressure game is hard to fault, Hirst’s kicking left a little to be desired at times and he was ineffective with eight of his 11 attempts. Still, found Josh Tilly well inside 50 and kicked a nice goal on the run in the third term.

Limited vision available, so all I can go off is the post-game comments.

Definitely not qualified to make a significant comment on who would be best for us, or best in general, but I still believe the better approach for Carlton right now is to take a small forward who we believe can play out the remainder of the year in the seniors. Don't need them to star, just need them to be a long-term forward pocket option who doesn't need three preseasons before they're "ready".

 

[Gavstar]

I find this really interesting. My initial reaction to a mid season draft was that we should select a player that could immediately play and have an impact. Therefore we should be selecting the best available small forward in the country because in my opinion it is our most glaring hole. However, how many times have we seen a top ager from the TAC cup shoot up the draft order after finally getting their injuries right? If SOS could identify a player that is shooting up the draft board it could almost work out as an actual top 30 pick because someone like Hirst could eventually end up there by the time the actual draft rolls around in November. It is quite a big reach but astute drafters could certainly take advantage of this moving forward.

Pragmatically the season is a write off already in terms of finals. So from my perspective its about who will have the biggest impact next year and beyond. If we were in the mix for finals I would hope we would take a what makes the team better now approach. Thus the potential conflict between between longer term list management to build team that has the potential to win a premiership later on or one that might grab an extra win or two this year.

A big problem is another longer term prospect doesn't help out our coach and the pressure he is under at the moment, nor please fans who are pining for some wins now.

 

[bmaurizio]

I'm not qualified to make a definitive comments on our recruitment needs too , its more the frustration with some of our youngsters, displaying poor disposal attributes its disheartening. Whiist some others that were not so highly fancied show endeavor, dash and lace out pin point passes to perfection.
Really don't know what to expect from this mid season draft, a player that's proud to be Bagger and contribute to a few a wins. A skillful froward live wire, if it were possible.

 

[Matty411]

Keen to go with whomever the club rates as the best pick if taken in the 2019 draft. Don't expect us to take a mature guy who'll play right away after picking up Gibbons already.

Hirt/Dunkley seem the best choices for us, with Kyle getting heaps of plaudits and has interest from 3-4 clubs so could be a Kelly type that bolts in the draft.

 

[Coona Blues]

…………..

Definitely not qualified to make a significant comment on who would be best for us, or best in general, but I still believe the better approach for Carlton right now is to take a small forward who we believe can play out the remainder of the year in the seniors. Don't need them to star, just need them to be a long-term forward pocket option who doesn't need three preseasons before they're "ready".

While we would all love that x factor small forward, they are not as common as most believe. However, plenty can play the pressure role and be effective. We currently have Cuningham and Gibbons getting better by the week. Likely Fisher will be as much forward as midfielder. He does not have the frame to play predominantly inside. Cuningham has the skill set to be a very dangerous forward/pinch hitting midfielder, as does Fisher and there is not reason to believe Gibbons won't wake that step. He has come a very long way in a new role in just 8 games. I think most, like me, believe Dale Thomas could be a very effective small forward if returned to the role. His improved mobility and disposal have him considerably further along.

So the question is how desperately short of small forwards are we?

 

[Blue__Balls]

While we would all love that x factor small forward, they are not as common as most believe. However, plenty can play the pressure role and be effective. We currently have Cuningham and Gibbons getting better by the week. Likely Fisher will be as much forward as midfielder. He does not have the frame to play predominantly inside. Cuningham has the skill set to be a very dangerous forward/pinch hitting midfielder, as does Fisher and there is not reason to believe Gibbons won't wake that step. He has come a very long way in a new role in just 8 games. I think most, like me, believe Dale Thomas could be a very effective small forward if returned to the role. His improved mobility and disposal have him considerably further along.

So the question is how desperately short of small forwards are we?

My answer would be "Exceptionally short on small forwards".

Small forwards by nature: Fasolo, Lebois
Small forwards by necessity: Cuningham, Garlett, Pickett, Polson
Small mids that can go forward: Murphy, Fisher, SPS, Walsh, Thomas, Gibbons, Lang
Small somethings that I can't place: Cottrell, Owies

I understand that you think it's OK to just rotate some smaller mids through that spot, and I can see the appeal in having more mid rotations in the side. I do believe it's necessary to have at least one specialist in that position. Someone who thinks of themselves as a small forward who can go through the middle, rather than a mid who can go forward.

We don't have many of those - Fasolo for sure, Lebois who can't stay on the park, maybe Pickett and Garlett though they're often described as being more suited to playing up the ground, then we're into the speculative rookie picks who are nowhere near the grade yet. Our forward line is in desperate need of a crafty small forward who hunts the ball, and the man. I think our tall forwards would relish having someone consistently buzzing around their feet, someone they can build real synergy with and with whom they can start to work all those deft little taps to advantage into their games.

One full time small forward should be a priority, no doubt in my mind.

 

[ferrisb]

My answer would be "Exceptionally short on small forwards".

Small forwards by nature: Fasolo, Lebois
Small forwards by necessity: Cuningham, Garlett, Pickett, Polson
Small mids that can go forward: Murphy, Fisher, SPS, Walsh, Thomas, Gibbons, Lang
Small somethings that I can't place: Cottrell, Owies

I understand that you think it's OK to just rotate some smaller mids through that spot, and I can see the appeal in having more mid rotations in the side. I do believe it's necessary to have at least one specialist in that position. Someone who thinks of themselves as a small forward who can go through the middle, rather than a mid who can go forward.

We don't have many of those - Fasolo for sure, Lebois who can't stay on the park, maybe Pickett and Garlett though they're often described as being more suited to playing up the ground, then we're into the speculative rookie picks who are nowhere near the grade yet. Our forward line is in desperate need of a crafty small forward who hunts the ball, and the man. I think our tall forwards would relish having someone consistently buzzing around their feet, someone they can build real synergy with and with whom they can start to work all those deft little taps to advantage into their games.

One full time small forward should be a priority, no doubt in my mind.

I agree that a small forward should be a priority.

But SOS and co will pick who they think has the most talent/upside - with not a huge concern about overall list management. Little doubt in my mind.

 

[Bamboo Harvester]

I still reckons from a list strategy perspective, they'll be looking at the best overage junior player available, ie Dunkley or Hirst, with the view of promoting them to the senior list at the end of the year if they stack up.

We've gotta keep in mind that if we don't currently have a 2nd round pick in this year's ND....and if we get aggressive with our trades, the Cow's first round pick will be gone, along with our 3rd round picks....leaving us with 4th and 5th round picks. In other words, we pick up a player in the mid season draft, who may well be a top 30-40 pick at the 2019 ND if he were still available.

So the strategy may well be to get 6 months of development into them, so we can potentially promote them along with Gibbo onto our senior list, and having one/two picks at the lower end of the ND this year....given the requirement of minimum three picks in the ND (which can include rookie promotions).