Analysis 2018 Best 22

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Candiru

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The Nelson hate continues.

By and large, when he's played this year, he's played his role well. Why are people so negative about him?
I don't hate him. But I don't think he's best 22 over Sheed or Waterman. And I think it's striking how quickly Cole went past him.

Nelson was drafted a year earlier and is 12 months older. Coming into 2018, Nelson had played 32 games. Cole had played six. But halfway through 2018, most of the teams in this thread have Cole pencilled in somewhere in our back six. Nelson just hasn't shown the same kind of improvement.

At best he's a depth player in a good system. Personally I think we can do better.
We can. We've been picking Tom Cole instead.
 

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Candiru

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So are you going to play Sheed or Waterman as the seventh defender then?
No.

Don't worry about magnets on the coach's board. We play a team defence so it's not a case of saying "we have six starting defenders plus Nelson".
 
I don't hate him. But I don't think he's best 22 over Sheed or Waterman. And I think it's striking how quickly Cole went past him.

Nelson was drafted a year earlier and is 12 months older. Coming into 2018, Nelson had played 32 games. Cole had played six. But halfway through 2018, most of the teams in this thread have Cole pencilled in somewhere in our back six. Nelson just hasn't shown the same kind of improvement.

We can. We've been picking Tom Cole instead.

Tom has played 7 consecutive games.

That is a better stretch than Jackson has managed since he reeled off 10 straight to start his career.

Don't discount the benefit of continuity, largely to help develop confidence. Tom is playing on top of the ground and it's great to see. No doubt at some point he will pick up some niggles and his form will waver. No doubt all the fair weather supporters will jump off his bandwagon at that point.

We should be stoked that we are getting pretty good service out of a couple of third rounders.
 

Candiru

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Tom has played 7 consecutive games.

That is a better stretch than Jackson has managed since he reeled off 10 straight to start his career.

Don't discount the benefit of continuity, largely to help develop confidence. Tom is playing on top of the ground and it's great to see. No doubt at some point he will pick up some niggles and his form will waver. No doubt all the fair weather supporters will jump off his bandwagon at that point.

We should be stoked that we are getting pretty good service out of a couple of third rounders.
Cole is getting consecutive games because he's gone past Nelson to be part of our first-choice back six.

I'm not drawing a line through Nelson but I don't think he's best 22 as a seventh defender who can't really play anywhere else. That's not to say he won't be next year or the year after.

In my view, one of two things need to happen for Nelson to become a regular:

1) "The Hacksaw" Liam Duggan starts playing serious midfield minutes, allowing Nelson to move into the back six as shutdown BP specialist. This is totally feasible. Duggan was apparently earmarked for more midfield minutes this season but that didn't eventuate, for whatever reason. Going into 2019, Duggan will be 22 with 70+ games under his belt. He'll be cherry ripe for the midfield, especially if Gaff leaves. He could be the next Sam Mitchell, coached by the first Sam Mitchell, but with a cooler nickname.

2) Nelson replaces Hutchings as a hard-edged defensively minded midfielder. Does he have the tank for that? I'm not sure. But that could be the objective in his development if he's to be something more than a straight-up BP stopper.
 
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Ghossein

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No.

Don't worry about magnets on the coach's board. We play a team defence so it's not a case of saying "we have six starting defenders plus Nelson".

team defence doesn't mean you don't have to worry about having the right amount of defenders....
 

Ghossein

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Sheed had two ordinary weeks after returning from injury. But we need a midfield that can win an arm wrestle and that means Sheed is still worth his spot. We can't just load up with half a dozen fancy half-forwards. People can bag Sheed for shitty disposals when warranted. That's fair enough. But stripping back our midfield rotations by dropping him is not the way forward. That's not how we win an arm wrestle.

You reckon Sheed and Hutchings are both on the chopping block? So who's in the midfield? Shuey, Yeo, Gaff, Redden, then who? Masten? That's not deep enough.

Haven't we seen enough in recent years of trying to play flashy, fast footy? And then the other team gets on top in contested possession and we go to water? We've finally built a midfield that can hold its own around the contest and people just want to go back to the sexy stuff? For mine, maintaining a midfield rotation that can break even or win the contested possession is probably our #1 priority right now in terms of game style and selection. Along with making sure that we maintain the effective kicking game that has helped our ball movement so dramatically, particularly in defence and in transition on the way out.

Please remember that Simmo was actually the one that first put Sheed on notice, it seems unlikely to me that Simmo would suggest dropping him if it would indeed have this apocalyptic affect on our midfield, as you suggest.
 

Candiru

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team defence doesn't mean you don't have to worry about having the right amount of defenders....
It means you don't need to have a designated "seventh defender" who has no other role for the 80 percent of the game when our first-choice back six is out there. And Nelson can't play anywhere else. It would be different if he could roll through the midfield as a tagger but there's no evidence he can do that. Hopefully that's the next step for him because he could be handy doing that.

To the extent that we need people to pinch hit down back occasionally, I see more versatile options than Nelson being picked as a designated seventh defender who has no other role for most of the game. Given that most teams will have a mid rotating forward, as opposed to six genuine forwards, I'd happily send Hutchings to that mid who's rotating forward. Alternatively, I think Ah Chee needs to have that versatility in his kit bag. He'll be far more valuable to us if he can play across HB in patches rather than being our fifth-choice small/medium forward exclusively. He's good overhead, powerful enough to tackle and harass, and is reasonably creative in transition. Equally, I see no problem with sending Jakey Waterman back there for a few minutes at a time as required. He's 20 years old with a good tank – why shouldn't stints across HB be part of his development?

With all that said, our team defence does actually mean that you don't need to go through the team and say "oh we need six defenders plus one". You set up a few key match-ups and then team defence rolls back to do the rest. Not picking Nelson – or any seventh defender – doesn't mean it unravels. How often do you reckon we just play six on six and leave it at that?

Please remember that Simmo was actually the one that first put Sheed on notice, it seems unlikely to me that Simmo would suggest dropping him if it would indeed have this apocalyptic affect on our midfield, as you suggest.
Simpson also doesn't appear to consider Nelson to be best 22 either but that hasn't stopped you suggesting he is. And they've picked Waterman every game so that might suggest he's best 22, but you disagree. So are we allowed to have a slightly different view to the coach/match committee or aren't we?

Sheed's form was patchy but I maintain he is part of our best 22 and an important part of our better spread of contested possession. I think dropping him would make it harder for us to maintain that spread of contested possession and ball-winning ability in the engine room. And I think that's undesirable. As Simpson might say: "That would not be pleasing."
 

Ghossein

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It means you don't need to have a designated "seventh defender" who has no other role for the 80 percent of the game when our first-choice back six is out there.

thats not how rotations work

And Nelson can't play anywhere else. It would be different if he could roll through the midfield as a tagger but there's no evidence he can do that. Hopefully that's the next step for him because he could be handy doing that.

he was drafted as a mid and has played on the wing at numerous points throughout the year

To the extent that we need people to pinch hit down back occasionally, I see more versatile options than Nelson being picked as a designated seventh defender who has no other role for most of the game. Given that most teams will have a mid rotating forward, as opposed to six genuine forwards, I'd happily send Hutchings to that mid who's rotating forward. Alternatively, I think Ah Chee needs to have that versatility in his kit bag. He'll be far more valuable to us if he can play across HB in patches rather than being our fifth-choice small/medium forward exclusively. He's good overhead, powerful enough to tackle and harass, and is reasonably creative in transition. Equally, I see no problem with sending Jakey Waterman back there for a few minutes at a time as required. He's 20 years old with a good tank – why shouldn't stints across HB be part of his development?

Jetta has been filling this void for us in recent weeks, but his form too has seemed to have dropped off. Ah Chee is quite set in his HF/Mid role, and Waterman is a pretty natural forward and should be developed as such. Hutchings is a possibility provided he doesn't have anyone to tag.

With all that said, our team defence does actually mean that you don't need to go through the team and say "oh we need six defenders plus one". You set up a few key match-ups and then team defence rolls back to do the rest. Not picking Nelson – or any seventh defender – doesn't mean it unravels. How often do you reckon we just play six on six and leave it at that?

Except it does since team defence only works if you have solid back men who know their role and know the structure in and out. you can't just chuck a player who's spent a pre-season in one line group back and expect him to just slot in perfectly. This is why defenders are defenders and they play in defence and they defend and they train as defenders with the defensive coach.

Simpson also doesn't appear to consider Nelson to be best 22 either but that hasn't stopped you suggesting he is. And they've picked Waterman every game so that might suggest he's best 22, but you disagree. So are we allowed to have a slightly different view to the coach/match committee or aren't we?

we're allowed to disagree, but what we should probably avoid is suggesting that dropping Sheed would cause a cataclysmic event that would flow onto the rest of the 22 and completely derail our entire team's ball movement

Sheed's form was patchy but I maintain he is part of our best 22 and an important part of our better spread of contested possession. I think dropping him would make it harder for us to maintain that spread of contested possession and ball-winning ability in the engine room. And I think that's undesirable. As Simpson might say: "That would not be pleasing."

My point is if Simmo considered dropping him then he clearly doesn't view Sheed's inclusion in the 22 as being as critical as you are suggesting. Perhaps some time in the WAFL would actually allow him to get back to his best. I don't at all think he's a bad player, but he has been frustrating in the past few rounds.
 

Candiru

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thats not how rotations work

he was drafted as a mid and has played on the wing at numerous points throughout the year

Jetta has been filling this void for us in recent weeks, but his form too has seemed to have dropped off. Ah Chee is quite set in his HF/Mid role, and Waterman is a pretty natural forward and should be developed as such. Hutchings is a possibility provided he doesn't have anyone to tag.
When Nelson starts having an impact playing on a wing, it'll be a different matter. I'm not drawing a line through him but I don't reckon he's best 22 without either being in our first-choice back six or having another serious string to his bow. It's pretty line-ball either way, isn't it? You reckon he's #21 or #22 and I reckon he's #23 or #24.

Ah Chee has played a handful of games. Surely he can't be that set in one role already. Perhaps more than any other player in the mix for a spot in our 22, Ah Chee needs to bring some versatility to the table. Because he'll likely otherwise find himself behind LeCras, Cripps, Rioli, Ryan and even Waterman for a spot in our first-choice forwardline. He needs to be able to walk and chew gum at the same time. He's a spare parts man, in my view.

Jakey Waterman is a natural forward, no doubt. But the versatility to play at either end could still be part of his development. Look at someone like Jack Gunston. He's also a natural forward but he's also been useful in defence at times. I'm not saying Waterman should play in defence all day. I'm saying that if need be, he could pinch hit across HB in bursts.

I agree Hutchings' best position is as an engine-room tagger. My point is that if an opposition midfielder is playing forward, he can go with them. That happens pretty often, unless our opponents are playing six genuine forwards, which is pretty rare.

Except it does since team defence only works if you have solid back men who know their role and know the structure in and out. you can't just chuck a player who's spent a pre-season in one line group back and expect him to just slot in perfectly. This is why defenders are defenders and they play in defence and they defend and they train as defenders with the defensive coach.
But we do have that. We do have very solid specialist backmen who know their role and the structure. And everyone else in the team knows how to play as part of the team defence that slows our opponent's transition and closes down space in the defensive half. The famous West Coast Web, or whatever we're calling it this year.

And I don't mean to be cheeky, but if Nelson is a defender and defenders play in defence and they train as defenders with their defensive coach, then how can he also go and play on a wing at different times? Does he just slot into the midfield when we ask him to?

Doesn't this suggest players can in fact shuffle between a few different roles without losing the plot?

we're allowed to disagree, but what we should probably avoid is suggesting that dropping Sheed would cause a cataclysmic event that would flow onto the rest of the 22 and completely derail our entire team's ball movement

My point is if Simmo considered dropping him then he clearly doesn't view Sheed's inclusion in the 22 as being as critical as you are suggesting. Perhaps some time in the WAFL would actually allow him to get back to his best. I don't at all think he's a bad player, but he has been frustrating in the past few rounds.
Now, now ... There's no need to exaggerate. I didn't say it would be "cataclysmic". I said our success this season has been built around a more even spread of contested ball and dropping our #2 for contested possession would be a step away from that. That's why I think Sheed remains best 22. Surely that's not beyond the pale? I reckon that's been a bigger factor than having Jetta/Nelson in there as a seventh defender.

By all means, if Sheed's form really falls away, give him a spell in the WAFL. There's nothing wrong with that. But I think that when the time comes for us to win a tough final, contested ball will be key and we'll be better off with Sheed in that kind of game.
 
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Ghossein

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When Nelson starts having an impact playing on a wing, it'll be a different matter. I'm not drawing a line through him but I don't reckon he's best 22 without either being in our first-choice back six or having another serious string to his bow. It's pretty line-ball either way, isn't it? You reckon he's #21 or #22 and I reckon he's #23 or #24.

Ah Chee has played a handful of games. Surely he can't be that set in one role already. Perhaps more than any other player in the mix for a spot in our 22, Ah Chee needs to bring some versatility to the table. Because he'll likely otherwise find himself behind LeCras, Cripps, Rioli, Ryan and even Waterman for a spot in our first-choice forwardline. He needs to be able to walk and chew gum at the same time.

Jakey Waterman is a natural forward, no doubt. But the versatility to play at either end could still be part of his development. Look at someone like Jack Gunston. He's also a natural forward but he's also been useful in defence at times. I'm not saying Waterman should play in defence all day. I'm saying that if need be, he could pinch hit across HB in bursts.

I agree Hutchings' best position is as an engine-room tagger. My point is that if an opposition midfielder is playing forward, he can go with them. That happens pretty often, unless our opponents are playing six genuine forwards, which is pretty rare.

Honestly I think Watson is perfect for this role but he's not quite AFL ready yet. Like you say with Sheed, if our team is truly built around contested ball then surely you want someone like Nelson the serial sledger?

But we do have that. We do have very solid specialist backmen who know their role and the structure. And everyone else in the team knows how to play as part of the team defence that slows our opponent's transition and closes down space in the defensive half. The famous West Coast Web, or whatever we're calling it this year.

And I don't mean to be cheeky, but if Nelson is a defender and defenders play in defence and they train as defenders with their defensive coach, then how can he also go and play on a wing at different times? Does he just slot into the midfield when we ask him to?

lies, you do mean to be cheeky. it's common for players to move from half back/half forward into the midfield roles, but it would be extremely hard to take someone like Waterman who spent the back half of his pre-season preparing to play in Kennedy's role Round 1 and expect him to pick up the defensive structure quickly.

Doesn't this suggest players can in fact shuffle between a few different roles without losing the plot?

Now, now ... There's no need to exaggerate. I didn't say it would be "cataclysmic". I said our success this season has been built around a more even spread of contested ball and dropping our #2 for contested possession would be a step away from that. That's why I think Sheed remains best 22. Surely that's not beyond the pale?

By all means, if his form really falls away, give him a spell in the WAFL. There's nothing wrong with that. But I think that when the time comes for us to win a tough final, contested ball will be key and we'll be better off with Sheed in that kind of game.

you could solve this by putting Yeo back to HBF and sheed in the mid then keep waterman in....
 

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Candiru

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Honestly I think Watson is perfect for this role but he's not quite AFL ready yet. Like you say with Sheed, if our team is truly built around contested ball then surely you want someone like Nelson the serial sledger?
I'd like to see him given more midfield time. That would sway me. If he could effectively do some of what Hutchings does but then go back to play in a BP, he'd have a much better case.

lies, you do mean to be cheeky. it's common for players to move from half back/half forward into the midfield roles, but it would be extremely hard to take someone like Waterman who spent the back half of his pre-season preparing to play in Kennedy's role Round 1 and expect him to pick up the defensive structure quickly.
Just to roll through HB occasionally? Surely he'd manage.

you could solve this by putting Yeo back to HBF and sheed in the mid then keep waterman in....
Nah. Yeo is too good in the middle.

I guess we'll see how it plays out. I reckon Nelson is at least even money to be dropped this week, though. Right?
 

Ghossein

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I'd like to see him given more midfield time. That would sway me. If he could effectively do some of what Hutchings does but then go back to play in a BP, he'd have a much better case.

Just to roll through HB occasionally? Surely he'd manage.

Nah. Yeo is too good in the middle.

I guess we'll see how it plays out. I reckon Nelson is at least even money to be dropped this week, though. Right?

i hope not because that probably means Jetta retains his spot
 
Dec 19, 2007
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waterman is best 15 not best 22.Even mentioning his name in the "your dropped" stakes is lunacy.I think Sheed is on the outer partially for disposal but big time for poor body language and lack of hard chasing.Nelson is starting to play like a very good footballer.Hes harder at the ball,better in the air and his disposal is good [left and right].He could if needed play quite comfortably in the midfield in fact hes probably got more weapons than Duggan.That said i think Duggan/Cole and Nelson are forming a nice grouping down back.They all give lip and go hard. Love it.Im on the fence re Ah Chee,hes like Sheed in that when hes close to the ball he goes after it;flies for marks and tackles; but when the ball is 8-10m away doesnt seem to show the appetite for chasing or getting to the next contest.Early days for him.
 

Candiru

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Nelson is starting to play like a very good footballer.Hes harder at the ball,better in the air and his disposal is good [left and right].He could if needed play quite comfortably in the midfield in fact hes probably got more weapons than Duggan.
I agree to an extent. I'd like to see Nelson pushed into the middle. But if you start talking smack about The Hacksaw, that'll end in tears.
 
Dec 19, 2007
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Speaking of Watson;Hes very talented,hes as brave as they come,he took a fantastic mark for EP running back into the pack and hes a gritty tackler.My question is; why do we persist in playing him in the backline? Hes not a big solid lad, but with his skill arsenal would make a seriously good forward pocket possibly moving to the wing when he fills out.
 
Nelson started a bunch of centre bounces on the wing against St Kilda and ran the second most km and 2nd highest km at high speed. Didn't find enough of the footy but got most of them linking up (9 possies and 6 marks) No connection with the forwards unfortunately and turned over both his i50 kicks from recollection. Played mostly back in the 4th where we got done on the spread and coughed up 7 goals. Not sure if there is anything to be read into that.

As for Ah Chee I suggest we leave him in as long as we can. Seems to be improving week on week. Could be an awesome 1-2 punch with Yeo if he can find a groove. A couple of athletic mids that are capable overhead are so valuable to spread the load and make our kicking game transition as flexible as possible. Waterman working up the ground as a tall, the ruckman and a marking midfielder or two and you start to have too many options to cover and can find a mismatch to kick to where a mark is a good chance.

B22 ignoring Injury:

B: Shep Barrass Duggan
HB: Cole Gov Hurn
C: Gaff Redden Masten
HF: Lecca Darling Waterman
F: Cripps Kennedy Rioli
R: Naita Shuey Yeo

I: Lycett, Sheed, Ryan, Ah Chee

Might be a backman short. Masto on notice if Nelson starts playing a lot of time on the wing at EP. I could see Nelson ending up as a defensive version of Embers. Wing and stints back (rather than forward) and plenty enough mongrel to win his own footy when opportunity presents. Embers didn't really start to rack up much of the ball until his 5th year either...

4th Year Stats

Maybe sometimes a little patience is required...
 
Dec 19, 2007
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Nelson started a bunch of centre bounces on the wing against St Kilda and ran the second most km and 2nd highest km at high speed. Didn't find enough of the footy but got most of them linking up (9 possies and 6 marks) No connection with the forwards unfortunately and turned over both his i50 kicks from recollection. Played mostly back in the 4th where we got done on the spread and coughed up 7 goals. Not sure if there is anything to be read into that.

As for Ah Chee I suggest we leave him in as long as we can. Seems to be improving week on week. Could be an awesome 1-2 punch with Yeo if he can find a groove. A couple of athletic mids that are capable overhead are so valuable to spread the load and make our kicking game transition as flexible as possible. Waterman working up the ground as a tall, the ruckman and a marking midfielder or two and you start to have too many options to cover and can find a mismatch to kick to where a mark is a good chance.

B22 ignoring Injury:

B: Shep Barrass Duggan
HB: Cole Gov Hurn
C: Gaff Redden Masten
HF: Lecca Darling Waterman
F: Cripps Kennedy Rioli
R: Naita Shuey Yeo

I: Lycett, Sheed, Ryan, Ah Chee

Might be a backman short. Masto on notice if Nelson starts playing a lot of time on the wing at EP. I could see Nelson ending up as a defensive version of Embers. Wing and stints back (rather than forward) and plenty enough mongrel to win his own footy when opportunity presents. Embers didn't really start to rack up much of the ball until his 5th year either...

4th Year Stats

Maybe sometimes a little patience is required...
The thing is Yo has pace and chases and tackles.He also has a great left.AhChee has good hands and great handball..........
 
Elliot has been here for 5 years and anyone with memory longer than a goldfish can recall he has come on in fits and starts.

We shouldn't rush to judgement on Ah Chee. It's easy to call out "laziness" or "lack of interest" when it might simply be a bit of timidity, uncertainty of when to go or even instruction to lay off the contest while he learns the ropes at full match pace. We've seen a few small sparks and even a Yeo sized fireball started with a few small sparks.
 
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Elliot has been here for 5 years and anyone with memory longer than a goldfish can recall he has come on in fits and starts.

We shouldn't rush to judgement on Ah Chee. It's easy to call out "laziness" or "lack of interest" when it might simply be a bit of timidity, uncertainty of when to go or even instruction to lay off the contest while he learns the ropes at full match pace. We've seen a few small sparks and even a Yeo sized fireball started with a few small sparks.
But consider Yo always looked like he had the ammo!
 

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I think the best 22 structurally based on 7 Defenders, 6 Midfielders, 2 Rucks and 7 Forwards is pretty settled, other than the final defender position (Jetta, Nelson) and final midfield position (Hutchings, Sheed).

DEF: McGovern, Barass, Hurn, Sheppard, Duggan, Cole, Jetta/Nelson
MID: Shuey, Gaff, Yeo, Redden, Masten, Sheed/Hutchings
RUCK: Naitanui, Lycett
FWD: Kennedy, Darling, Waterman, Rioli, LeCras, Cripps, Ryan
 
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Nelson started a bunch of centre bounces on the wing against St Kilda and ran the second most km and 2nd highest km at high speed. Didn't find enough of the footy but got most of them linking up (9 possies and 6 marks) No connection with the forwards unfortunately and turned over both his i50 kicks from recollection. Played mostly back in the 4th where we got done on the spread and coughed up 7 goals. Not sure if there is anything to be read into that.

As for Ah Chee I suggest we leave him in as long as we can. Seems to be improving week on week. Could be an awesome 1-2 punch with Yeo if he can find a groove. A couple of athletic mids that are capable overhead are so valuable to spread the load and make our kicking game transition as flexible as possible. Waterman working up the ground as a tall, the ruckman and a marking midfielder or two and you start to have too many options to cover and can find a mismatch to kick to where a mark is a good chance.

B22 ignoring Injury:

B: Shep Barrass Duggan
HB: Cole Gov Hurn
C: Gaff Redden Masten
HF: Lecca Darling Waterman
F: Cripps Kennedy Rioli
R: Naita Shuey Yeo

I: Lycett, Sheed, Ryan, Ah Chee

Might be a backman short. Masto on notice if Nelson starts playing a lot of time on the wing at EP. I could see Nelson ending up as a defensive version of Embers. Wing and stints back (rather than forward) and plenty enough mongrel to win his own footy when opportunity presents. Embers didn't really start to rack up much of the ball until his 5th year either...

4th Year Stats

Maybe sometimes a little patience is required...

Difference is Embley was hitting the scoreboard at age and demanded attention.

Nelson is a defensive player. If he is on the wing it's not like he will draw a tag or much opposition attention. That means Gaff will be focused more.

If he plays up the ground he needs more strings to his bow.
 

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