Analysis 2018 General Offseason Discussion

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caesar88

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I think the AFLW already looks like it's gone to another level from last year's (admittedly didn't see much of last year but what I did see was grim.) As I've said though it will just take time, just as the men's comp did back in the 19th century. These cringe-worthy things (because let's face it they are cringe-worthy) like guard of honours and NAB adverts and such are a necessary evil if the general public is going to sustain a modicum of interest in the women's competition long enough to see it become a great league. In the words of (insert any ancient prophet), patience is a virtue.
 

connolly

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and time and time again the quote attributed to Horse has been proven to be false. He had no issue with Florent playing on like he did.

Really? Fake news? He did take issue actually. He said that the fact he kicked the goal made it ok. The implication was that if he missed he would have been criticised or worse. A qualified approval at best. The reference to living and dying by the sword has a not too subtle implication of discipline if he had missed.

"The 19-year-old's kick never looked like missing, but Longmire told reporters after the game he would rather the forward had held up play by going back to take his kick. (issue)


"That might have been a preference at that particular point in time," Longmire said with a laugh. (issue)


"Any way what will be, will be. I had an old coach who used to say you live by the sword, (you) die by the sword and he went for it and he kicked it. We'll take that as well. (issue)


"It was good to see him kick it, the young kid. Sometimes it's great as a young bloke, isn't it? You don't have any fear, you just go about it and what will be, will be.


"That's what's good about him. I just spoke to him then and he just said, 'What's the problem? I went back and kicked it'."

Once again an inspiring reference to Denis Pagan and North Melbourne circa 1990's from Horse. The most authoritarian coach since Genghis Khan is being called up as a role model. Are you seriously suggesting that the report on AFL media made up the quotes?
 
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connolly

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You might be right. Zac has great dare and the pace to break through lines, but I have not seen much evidence of a great footy IQ. Attribute wise, he is not a see ball get ball type, despite his physicality. Most of the blokes Horse apparently is running through the mids are notable for their footy IQ and discipline.

I am not sure where Zac's best position is.
He and Buddy are our only tatts players. Dangerous individuality and flair in evidence.
 

TheMase

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Really? Fake news? He did take issue actually. He said that the fact he kicked the goal made it ok. The implication was that if he missed he would have been criticised or worse. A qualified approval at best. The reference to living and dying by the sword has a not too subtle implication of discipline if he had missed.

"The 19-year-old's kick never looked like missing, but Longmire told reporters after the game he would rather the forward had held up play by going back to take his kick. (issue)


"That might have been a preference at that particular point in time," Longmire said with a laugh. (issue)


"Any way what will be, will be. I had an old coach who used to say you live by the sword, (you) die by the sword and he went for it and he kicked it. We'll take that as well. (issue)


"It was good to see him kick it, the young kid. Sometimes it's great as a young bloke, isn't it? You don't have any fear, you just go about it and what will be, will be.


"That's what's good about him. I just spoke to him then and he just said, 'What's the problem? I went back and kicked it'."

Once again an inspiring reference to Denis Pagan and North Melbourne circa 1990's from Horse. The most authoritarian coach since Genghis Khan is being called up as a role model. Are you seriously suggesting that the report on AFL media made up the quotes?
Again. Every coach in the AFL would have wanted Florent to hold the ball at that point of the game. No doubt about it.

The quote were after Longmires response to a direct question “would you prefer he had held the ball” to which he responded with a laugh “the might have been the preference...”
 

connolly

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Again. Every coach in the AFL would have wanted Florent to hold the ball at that point of the game. No doubt about it.

The quote were after Longmires response to a direct question “would you prefer he had held the ball” to which he responded with a laugh “the might have been the preference...”
I don't know how you know that. But we know for sure Horse does not want players playing on as he imposes a possession game. The point of my reply was the extraordinary claim that Longmire didn't take issue with kid playing on. The quotes from the AFL media report make it clear that:
1. He did take "issue" - which I define as a misgiving or complaint.
2. Longmire chose to make his misgivings public.
3. Longmire's misgivings were not misquoted or even more extraordinarily "made up".
If you want a mirror image of Longmire's coaching style and treatment of players check out Anthony Koutafides criticism of Denis Pagan. Outmoded game plan, favouritism and discipline without fairness.
 

TheMase

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I don't know how you know that. But we know for sure Horse does not want players playing on as he imposes a possession game. The point of my reply was the extraordinary claim that Longmire didn't take issue with kid playing on. The quotes from the AFL media report make it clear that:
1. He did take "issue" - which I define as a misgiving or complaint.
2. Longmire chose to make his misgivings public.
3. Longmire's misgivings were not misquoted or even more extraordinarily "made up".
If you want a mirror image of Longmire's coaching style and treatment of players check out Anthony Koutafides criticism of Denis Pagan. Outmoded game plan, favouritism and discipline without fairness.
Nobody had said it was made up. It’s context.

What drew the response is as important as the response itself. Had the reporter said “how good was Florents goal” and Horse responded “yeah, but he shouldn’t have played on” you might have a point. But that’s not what happened. He was asked a direct question as to whether he would have preferred he held the ball, to which he responding whilst laughing, yes.

And I know that’s because it’s common sense. I have coached and if the players were aware of the state of the game (time), I would want them to hold the ball in that situation rather than take an unnecessary risk that could potentially give the ball to a desperate opposition who would know they have one more shot at taking the game away.

Fortunately for us Florent iced the game, but it could easily have been a different outcome.

As for Longmire not wanting players to play on, I am not sure that is accurate either, but that’s a different discussion. It’s about making the right decision for the right circumstance, not “don’t play on”.
 

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connolly

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Nobody had said it was made up. It’s context.

What drew the response is as important as the response itself. Had the reporter said “how good was Florents goal” and Horse responded “yeah, but he shouldn’t have played on” you might have a point. But that’s not what happened. He was asked a direct question as to whether he would have preferred he held the ball, to which he responding whilst laughing, yes.

And I know that’s because it’s common sense. I have coached and if the players were aware of the state of the game (time), I would want them to hold the ball in that situation rather than take an unnecessary risk that could potentially give the ball to a desperate opposition who would know they have one more shot at taking the game away.

Fortunately for us Florent iced the game, but it could easily have been a different outcome.

As for Longmire not wanting players to play on, I am not sure that is accurate either, but that’s a different discussion. It’s about making the right decision for the right circumstance, not “don’t play on”.
Well someone did say it was "made up". "and time and time again the quote attributed to Horse has been proven to be false."
False is an adjective meaning :
  1. not according with truth or fact; incorrect.

  2. made to imitate something in order to deceive.

  3. illusory; not actually so.
  4. The quotes i used were not false. And Longmire did take issue with the kid playing on. Its irrelevant to the point of my reply whether other coaches would have wanted Florent to go back and take his kick. Why did Longmire make his misgivings public. He could have just said "good on the kid" and kept his misgivings to the dressing room. Which he should have.
 

TheMase

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Well someone did say it was "made up". "and time and time again the quote attributed to Horse has been proven to be false."
False is an adjective meaning :
  1. not according with truth or fact; incorrect.

  2. made to imitate something in order to deceive.

  3. illusory; not actually so.
  4. The quotes i used were not false. And Longmire did take issue with the kid playing on. Its irrelevant to the point of my reply whether other coaches would have wanted Florent to go back and take his kick. Why did Longmire make his misgivings public. He could have just said "good on the kid" and kept his misgivings to the dressing room. Which he should have.
“Made to intimate something in order to deceive” can be interpreted that his quotes are being misrepresented. It has been represented that he just came out and said that without reference to the direct question he was asked. Context is important...

It is completely relevant re other coaches because you are having a go at Longmire about it like he is some kind of lone villain and if we had another coach it wouldn’t be the same. Point being that every coach would want the same, given the same game situation, so you are in effect having a go at every AFL coach, therefore it is relevant.

He laughed off the journalists question showing the emotional roller coaster he went though before settling and saying good on the kid for backing himself!
 

RobbieK

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I don't know how you know that. But we know for sure Horse does not want players playing on as he imposes a possession game. The point of my reply was the extraordinary claim that Longmire didn't take issue with kid playing on. The quotes from the AFL media report make it clear that:
1. He did take "issue" - which I define as a misgiving or complaint.
2. Longmire chose to make his misgivings public.
3. Longmire's misgivings were not misquoted or even more extraordinarily "made up".
If you want a mirror image of Longmire's coaching style and treatment of players check out Anthony Koutafides criticism of Denis Pagan. Outmoded game plan, favouritism and discipline without fairness.
You are unable to consider any situation involving Longmire without immediately drawing the worst possible conclusions. It is irrational.

He was directly asked if he would have preferred Florent to stop. He laughed and indicated he would have, but that all was fine and he complimented Florent's willingness to take the game on.

To suggest this was some sort of unwarranted and unfair public attack on a player is frankly absurd.
 
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caesar88

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The comment after Florent's goal kinda made me roll my eyes and say "typical..." but I also got over it. Because I think Horse should be commended for how he handled O Flo in 2018. It might've got lost in all the "gee look how much he's improved" conversation, but Horse allowed him to improve. Don't get me wrong I agree with a lot of what connolly and co usually have to say about Horse being defensive, over-complicating his players' roles etc., but he nailed it with Florent. The kid's first season was promising without being impressive. So it took major balls from Horse to then find this faith to let Florent play on the wing and in the midfield for the whole year in his second season. I loved that he just backed a youngster in, asked a massive amount of him, and didn't over-coach him. He saw him as a worthy mid that could do the difficult task of playing inside and outside, so he played him as an inside and outside mid for 23 matches. There were some very good games and some average games in there, but he didn't panic or over-react and just did right by the kid.

Now if we're talking about say Aliir or Lloyd, I have many a bone to pick with Horse, but I just don't think Florent is a good example because I genuinely think he had a lot to do with him flourishing last year.
 

connolly

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You are unable to consider any situation involving Longmire without immediately drawing the worst possible conclusions. It is irrational.

He was directly asked if he would have preferred Florent to stop. He laughed and indicated he would have, but that all was fine and he complimented Florent's willingness to take the game on.

To suggest this was some sort of unwarranted and unfair public attack on a player is frankly absurd.
1. He said more than that. He said you "live by the sword" The clear implication was that if Florent had missed the goal there would have been consequences. I once had an interesting conversation with Rocket Eade after we lost the 96 GF. I asked him what it was that was the key to the turn around in the players after he took over from Barassi. Now Rocket a lovely bloke outside the coaches box didn't criticise Barassi. But he said something to the effect that the players when he came to the club were fearful of making mistakes and had been coached not to take risks. He said he coached them to take risks and back themselves in. If they made a mistake he didn't want them to go back into their shell. He encouraged them to try again and risk it. That is great coaching. Longmire does not coach that way. His equivocation in regard to Florent is symptomatic of how he has the group playing cautious and defensive football.
2. You write that quote was "false" Not wrong or inaccurate but false which I reasonably interpreted as "made up". The noun "falsehood" in the law means a lie. And apparently i am irrational. Turn it up. I didn't launch an ad hominem attack on you as conspiratorial or paranoid as you claimed that a series of quotes on an AFL news site were lies or "made up". Perhaps we can keep it civil. Its neither irrational or absurd to draw a conclusion as I did that Longmire expressed a "misgiving" or in your terms "issue" over a kid who took the game on, backed himself in and kicked a winning goal. Longmire was effusive about the kids self belief and ticker. Not. I knew a judge called "Whispering Death" He would smile as he punted your case out of court. I will take myself off to the Big Footy gulag that is the fate of the criminally insane Longmire dissenters. I wrote that with a smile. So its okay.
 
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RobbieK

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1. He said more than that. He said you "live by the sword" The clear implication was that if Florent had missed the goal there would have been consequences. I once had an interesting conversation with Rocket Eade after we lost the 96 GF. I asked him what it was that was the key to the turn around in the players after he took over from Barassi. Now Rocket a lovely bloke outside the coaches box didn't criticise Barassi. But he said something to the effect that the players when he came to the club were fearful of making mistakes and had been coached not to take risks. He said he coached them to take risks and back themselves in. If they made a mistake he didn't want them to go back into their shell. He encouraged them to try again and risk it. That is great coaching. Longmire does not coach that way. His equivocation in regard to Florent is symptomatic of how he has the group playing cautious and defensive football.
You are just continuing to prove my point here. Do you really think that the "live by the sword, die by the sword" comment should be interpreted as a threat against Florent? For starters, Longmire was quoting a former coach of his, not saying that was how he felt personally or how he coached the team. In the context of what was said the phrase was really the equivalent of "you win some, you lose some", instead you are using it to justify your belief that the players are afraid of Longmire. He followed up this statement by praising Florent's attitude.

So, when he speaks metaphorically you chose to take the worst interpretation of it. When he speaks explicitly and clearly you chose to ignore what was said entirely.

2. You write that quote was "false" Not wrong or inaccurate but false which I reasonably interpreted as "made up". The noun "falsehood" in the law means a lie. And apparently i am irrational. Turn it up. I didn't launch an ad hominem attack on you as conspiratorial or paranoid as you claimed that a series of quotes on an AFL news site were lies or "made up". Perhaps we can keep it civil. Its neither irrational or absurd to draw a conclusion as I did that Longmire expressed a "misgiving" or in your terms "issue" over a kid who took the game on, backed himself in and kicked a winning goal. Longmire was effusive about the kids self belief and ticker. Not. I knew a judge called "Whispering Death" He would smile as he punted your case out of court. I will take myself off to the Big Footy gulag that is the fate of the criminally insane Longmire dissenters. I wrote that with a smile. So its okay.
Where did I say the quote was false or made up? Please direct quote me on it, because I am pretty sure that you are the one that is making stuff up.

I made the point that it was taken out of context and that you provided an extreme interpretation of it, one that doesn't really stand up to any sort of scrutiny. When it comes to Longmire you are irrational.

The coach was asked a direct question about what his preference would be in a situation where the game is on the line, a player takes a mark and has the possibility of soaking up the little time remaining or playing on, risking a turnover that would lose the game. He answered honestly, and it was the same response that every single coach in the league would give. He answered with good humour that he would have preferred the player to take the more conservative approach, but he also praised the player for his confidence and willingness to take the game on.

You have decided to interpret this totally innocuous exchange in to evidence of Longmire's culture of fear and repression, suggesting he publicly attacked and threatened a young player, likened Longmire and Florent's relationship to the totally toxic situation at Carlton with Koutifidis and Pagan... It is just such an incredible leap that is not justified by the evidence.

Why do you make such a leap? Beacuse you have become so dogmatic about Longmire being a problem that everything you see now becomes evidence to justify your pre-existing narrative, no matter how tenuous the link is, no matter how much you need to twist things to fit. That is irrational. I don't have another word to use to describe it.
 
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Kirkswan

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Ohh but I didn’t explicitly state it! Stalker indeed lol ;)

I actually wondered if anyone was paying attention :)

I am not a big fan of ‘gaming’ either. I think though that the biggest clubs aren’t in the poorest areas by design per se, they have been around a longtime. I will concede though that they have grown to be the biggest clubs because of the desperation of lower socioeconomic in the areas they reside.

My job is specifically to account manager these bigger clubs and pub groups, so I know exactly what you mean. Most of the major clubs realise that gaming is actually declining is overall spend per bet (not patronage) and they are having to diversify into other areas particularly in significantly improved dining experiences.

Pretty sad regularly seeing those buttons being pressed though.
It's the only gambling in Australia where it is not a requirement that the odds be posted prior to payment. You're right about the big clubs being in old existing areas though. Are you sure the spend is still declining? I knew it was in 11 and 12, but I thought it had begun to increase again with the advent of larger jackpots.

This is an old story but it is still relevant imo: https://taxandsupernewsroom.com.au/large-amounts-state-tax-revenue-gambling-safe-bet/

NSW and Victoria have the highest tax dependence on gambling, raking in an estimated $2 billion and $1.8 billion respectively. A report on gambling by the Productivity Commission several years ago put this in percentage terms, showing Victoria relying on gambling for 13% of its revenue. The ACT and Western Australia have the lowest percentage reliance, at 4%.

What this means is that NSW and Victoria cannot afford to reduce gaming, so regardless of it's impact, they will continue to support it, while large off-shore corporations continue to pay little or no tax.

Right, I'll shut up about it now 'cause I could still be whinging about it this time next week!
 

caesar88

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connolly

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"We didn't get the ball out of our back half as efficiently as we wanted to, so therefore that put not only pressure on our inside 50s, but our repeats against, so they're areas we need to get a bit better at."

Really Horse? I'll take that as confession and a guilty plea that his defensive game plan inhibited our capacity to score. Of course the Horsophiles will argue the toss about what he means by "efficient" On the basis that our greatest coach since Norm Smith has an Oxbridge grasp of his first language, efficiency means achieving maximum productivity with minimum wasted effort or expense. Could the greatest finals achieving and failing coach since Phonse Kyne really mean that we fiddled around with defensive chip kicking, fannied about with first choice lateral movement in the back 50, that we pussied about in defense at the expense of quick direct football? Has Horse seen the light?
 

connolly

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You are just continuing to prove my point here. Do you really think that the "live by the sword, die by the sword" comment should be interpreted as a threat against Florent? For starters, Longmire was quoting a former coach of his, not saying that was how he felt personally or how he coached the team. In the context of what was said the phrase was really the equivalent of "you win some, you lose some", instead you are using it to justify your belief that the players are afraid of Longmire. He followed up this statement by praising Florent's attitude.

So, when he speaks metaphorically you chose to take the worst interpretation of it. When he speaks explicitly and clearly you chose to ignore what was said entirely.



Where did I say the quote was false or made up? Please direct quote me on it, because I am pretty sure that you are the one that is making stuff up.

I made the point that it was taken out of context and that you provided an extreme interpretation of it, one that doesn't really stand up to any sort of scrutiny. When it comes to Longmire you are irrational.

The coach was asked a direct question about what his preference would be in a situation where the game is on the line, a player takes a mark and has the possibility of soaking up the little time remaining or playing on, risking a turnover that would lose the game. He answered honestly, and it was the same response that every single coach in the league would give. He answered with good humour that he would have preferred the player to take the more conservative approach, but he also praised the player for his confidence and willingness to take the game on.

You have decided to interpret this totally innocuous exchange in to evidence of Longmire's culture of fear and repression, suggesting he publicly attacked and threatened a young player, likened Longmire and Florent's relationship to the totally toxic situation at Carlton with Koutifidis and Pagan... It is just such an incredible leap that is not justified by the evidence.

Why do you make such a leap? Beacuse you have become so dogmatic about Longmire being a problem that everything you see now becomes evidence to justify your pre-existing narrative, no matter how tenuous the link is, no matter how much you need to twist things to fit. That is irrational. I don't have another word to use to describe it.
You wrote
You are just continuing to prove my point here. Do you really think that the "live by the sword, die by the sword" comment should be interpreted as a threat against Florent? For starters, Longmire was quoting a former coach of his, not saying that was how he felt personally or how he coached the team. In the context of what was said the phrase was really the equivalent of "you win some, you lose some", instead you are using it to justify your belief that the players are afraid of Longmire. He followed up this statement by praising Florent's attitude.

So, when he speaks metaphorically you chose to take the worst interpretation of it. When he speaks explicitly and clearly you chose to ignore what was said entirely.



Where did I say the quote was false or made up? Please direct quote me on it, because I am pretty sure that you are the one that is making stuff up.

I made the point that it was taken out of context and that you provided an extreme interpretation of it, one that doesn't really stand up to any sort of scrutiny. When it comes to Longmire you are irrational.

The coach was asked a direct question about what his preference would be in a situation where the game is on the line, a player takes a mark and has the possibility of soaking up the little time remaining or playing on, risking a turnover that would lose the game. He answered honestly, and it was the same response that every single coach in the league would give. He answered with good humour that he would have preferred the player to take the more conservative approach, but he also praised the player for his confidence and willingness to take the game on.

You have decided to interpret this totally innocuous exchange in to evidence of Longmire's culture of fear and repression, suggesting he publicly attacked and threatened a young player, likened Longmire and Florent's relationship to the totally toxic situation at Carlton with Koutifidis and Pagan... It is just such an incredible leap that is not justified by the evidence.

Why do you make such a leap? Beacuse you have become so dogmatic about Longmire being a problem that everything you see now becomes evidence to justify your pre-existing narrative, no matter how tenuous the link is, no matter how much you need to twist things to fit. That is irrational. I don't have another word to use to describe it.
1. I was replying to robbieando's original comment where he did write "and time and time again the quote attributed to Horse has been proven to be false." Falsity where I come from implies and means made up as in a falsehood. I know its really old hat to insist on linguist precision but really if he had written that this was a matter of interpretation, I would have passed on because we have had that discussion ad nauseum. The bloke who wrote that hasn't replied to my comment about his claim that the "quote" (not the interpretation) was "false" so I wont push on in that regard. But its an extraordinary thing to write that the quote was false. I understand that you are differing about the interpretation which is fair enough.
2. Also where I come from the "live by the sword and you die by the sword" quote is threatening. I have a little experience in workplace bullying and dismissal cases and believe me if that comment is ever directed at an employee you can take it to Gowings its a threat. I don't mean that Longmire physically threatened him but it is a reasonable inference that if the kid had missed he would have suffered a consequence. It was totally unnecessary for Longmire to use that quote at a press conference. If he wanted to impress on the kid that he didn't want him to do such an outrageous thing as playing on to win a game of football he should have confined those remarks to the dressing sheds. An old principle is never criticise a player publicly. By the way not the first time Longmire has blamed his players unfairly at a press conference. Please reference his presser after the Richmond game last year where he criticised the players on losing turnovers where we won the turnovers and completely neglected to comment on Reiwoldt taking 16 marks without him making a move to try and stop him.
3. The Pagan comparison is raised because Pagan was Longmire's coach, is regarded as having a big influence on him and this is my assumption (not unreasonable) that Longmire reflects many of the characteristics of Pagan's coaching. Its interesting that Pagan also had a great list, a brilliant centre half forward and had his team play in 8 finals series on the trot for two premierships. With an ordinary list at Carlton Pagan was exposed as a mediocre at best coach. We shall see with Longmire?
4. You have clean bowled me middle stump with the call that I am dogmatic. I am completely dogmatic about everything about this club. Perhaps some might call it a passion. Its meant standing in mud as a kid in shorts, in freezing rain at Victoria Park, sprayed by beer and insults, many goals down in a painful last quarter and my Dad insisting that we never walk out on a game until the final siren. Dogmatic for sure. The only thing I think is piss poor weak is people not paying their full tax and restricting the generous gratuity the Commonwealth pays in the pension and people who make statements on BF but wont back up to defend them. No names no pack drill.
 
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