Analysis 2018 List Management discussion Pt 2

[therubbernub]

But yeah the big fish will remain harder, especially those 26+ hoping to see a flag in their career.

The reality is though , that the odds are against them landing at a premiership winning club. Who picked richmond, Bulldogs? Hawks were an abberation.
Who thought WCE would be where they are this year? Who thought that adelaide or GWS could possibly miss the finals this year. Not many had the Pies in the top 8. Its really a crap shoot, and the good player managers will be able to look past the superficial results and be able to see whether the list that their client may join has potential or not.
And as I have said, it can turn around very quickly , either with injuries (clubs fall unexpectedly) or with a few good players, youngsters developing and luck with injuries (collingwood).
At the end of the day, it is a career and a very short one at that, players have to look at their contracts and try to maximise the return on what would be for most (in 26+ bracket) , their last contract where they are the price maker rather than price taker. I dont think for many that they would ignore offers from rival clubs that is significantly more than they are being offered at their present club. 50-100k max.

 

[PP34]

So who would you have taken with those picks?

We had a completely screwed list with bugger all to trade with.

I think SOS has done a good job with the "s**t sandwich" he started with.

Would rather have a crack at more kids or even look at the WAFL/SANFL or VFL for those hidden gems that teams seem to find from time to time. How SOS coule have gone about that, I’m not sure but I think he could have found a way to get an extra pick or two.

O’Shea etc already couldn’t cut it elsewhere, bringing them in was just a complete waste of time and effort. Not a single one of them had untapped potential. They’ve never excelled at AFL level so why waste your time with them?

I think SOS has done a good job in the draft and in doing deals that have gotten him extra draft picks or players. The next step is to find senior players that are actually worth playing. Then he needs to find a way to inject some speed and pressure into our forward line that is currently too slow and too tall and much too easy for opposition teams to deal with.

I just hope we have some senior player who that want to come to us in the off-season. They don’t need even to be Shiel types right now. A draft/trade period where we bring in a handful of senior AFL players and a few more draftees would be huge. My fear is that senior players may once again overlook Carlton.

 

[SickQwon]

Posted on the Main Board. More suited here.

SOS FC Interview summary:

3 strong drafts, supporters must remain patience. Generic stuff.

player demographic against Brisbane:
players 21 & under - Carlton 10, Brisbane 6
players 22-25 - Carlton 4, Brisbane 9

player demographic against Saints:
players 21 & under - Carlton 11, Saints 5
Players 22-25 - Carlton 3, Saints 9

Key players finding it difficult to perform without mature bodies.

Mature players (Lobbe, O'Shea, Shaw, Mullett. ect) were not brought in to be long term players but to provide VFL depth to help the young list flourish. They weren't brought in to play AFL however with 16 injuries the MC is forced to play them.

SOS really hates it when his trades are not viewed holistically, however was defensive in his approach on the GWS 4 pickups. Kinda seemed like he thought the more players, the better. But his rebuttal about the trades that have worked saved him here. (ex. Henderson for Mckay, Tom Bell for Curnow ect.)

"How does Leigh Matthews know what happens behind the doors at Carlton Football Club" SOS accusing the negative feedback he is receiving is due to mislead or fabricated articles written by Caroline Wilson."
Also denies that himself, was a henchmen involved with the sacking of Trigg, outing her as a bullshit artist. (Trigg employed SOS, they good mates)

SOS is the only list manager in 6 years that has to come out and justify his case. Rebuilding is hard and Carlton are sticking to the process and they've achieved everything that was mapped out to supporters so far.

"It's really easy to build a list to get to 8th, 9th or 10th, but to win a premiership will take a long time." "It took Richmond a long time"

Chris Bond potentially to replace McKay. Probably Wilson making s**t up again.

"Giants have won 13 games in their first three years, I've been through this in terms of the patience side of things."

SOS calling out Lloyd on an article written a few years ago saying Gold Coast had a better list than GWS. "Things change and you gotta be patient because players will develop at different levels. Not linear."

Giants were just as much under pressure as Carlton.

Carlton are a new team, similar to the expansion clubs.

"Everything is for sale" - referring to trades/pick 1

Good culture, two leadership groups an old one and a young one.

Andy McKay elected to draft Jack Silvagni, SOS stepped away from the decision to remove any bias.

Stick fat with Bolts, great teacher. It's been tough for him because he cannot put out his best 22.

Caro: "When list managers are under pressure they get interview"
SOS: "Do they?"
Caro: "Yep, they do."
SOS: "Who? "
Caro: ".......Well.... Uh........"

Caro: "Bolton is just as culpable"
SOS: "We're all in it together, everyone at the club."

Felt more of an interrogation than an interview.

 

[PP34]

How do you suggest we "find some mature talent"?

Easy to say - a lot harder to do.

Not saying it’s easy, but it’s a necessity in the next year or two.

Melbourne dealt with a similar problem, but eventually managed to get the likes of Daniel Cross etc over. They weren’t game changers and I don’t even think Cross lasted long, but it was experience to give the kids some relief and also some guidance. Then once the improvement came, the likes of Hibberd etc suddenly took interest.

 

[Soapy V]

Any issues please refer to SOS interview on FC

 

[jezzajay]

Any issues please refer to SOS interview on FC

Bravo SOS...bravo

 

[Soapy V]

Posted on the Main Board. More suited here.

SOS FC Interview summary:

3 strong drafts, supporters must remain patience. Generic stuff.

player demographic against Brisbane:
players 21 & under - Carlton 10, Brisbane 6
players 22-25 - Carlton 4, Brisbane 9

player demographic against Saints:
players 21 & under - Carlton 11, Saints 5
Players 22-25 - Carlton 3, Saints 9

Key players finding it difficult to perform without mature bodies.

Mature players (Lobbe, O'Shea, Shaw, Mullett. ect) were not brought in to be long term players but to provide VFL depth to help the young list flourish. They weren't brought in to play AFL however with 16 injuries the MC is forced to play them.

SOS really hates it when his trades are not viewed holistically, however was defensive in his approach on the GWS 4 pickups. Kinda seemed like he thought the more players, the better. But his rebuttal about the trades that have worked saved him here. (ex. Henderson for Mckay, Tom Bell for Curnow ect.)

"How does Leigh Matthews know what happens behind the doors at Carlton Football Club" SOS accusing the negative feedback he is receiving is due to mislead or fabricated articles written by Caroline Wilson."
Also denies that himself, was a henchmen involved with the sacking of Trigg, outing her as a bullshit artist. (Trigg employed SOS, they good mates)

SOS is the only list manager in 6 years that has to come out and justify his case. Rebuilding is hard and Carlton are sticking to the process and they've achieved everything that was mapped out to supporters so far.

"It's really easy to build a list to get to 8th, 9th or 10th, but to win a premiership will take a long time." "It took Richmond a long time"

Chris Bond potentially to replace McKay. Probably Wilson making s**t up again.

"Giants have won 13 games in their first three years, I've been through this in terms of the patience side of things."

SOS calling out Lloyd on an article written a few years ago saying Gold Coast had a better list than GWS. "Things change and you gotta be patient because players will develop at different levels. Not linear."

Giants were just as much under pressure as Carlton.

Carlton are a new team, similar to the expansion clubs.

"Everything is for sale" - referring to trades/pick 1

Good culture, two leadership groups an old one and a young one.

Andy McKay elected to draft Jack Silvagni, SOS stepped away from the decision to remove any bias.

Stick fat with Bolts, great teacher. It's been tough for him because he cannot put out his best 22.

Caro: "When list managers are under pressure they get interview"
SOS: "Do they?"
Caro: "Yep, they do."
SOS: "Who? "
Caro: ".......Well.... Uh........"

Caro: "Bolton is just as culpable"
SOS: "We're all in it together, everyone at the club."

Felt more of an interrogation than an interview.

Very pleased with how he stated it’s a long term vision. People worrying about one win this year just can’t see it

 

[SickQwon]

Very pleased with how he stated it’s a long term vision. People worrying about one win this year just can’t see it

The one thing i'd remove from that interview is that SOS clearly holding a grudge against Caro for the lies she made up about him over year ago. Not a professional enough from both parties and a bit too much vinegar for my taste.

 

[BrisbaneCFC]

This is how I see our list.

No trade:
Dow, O'Brien, SPS, Cripps, Docherty, Marchbank, Weitering, Fisher, C Curnow, E Curnow, Williamson.

Build the team around these guys, nothing to gain by trading them. We just need to grow this list.

Older Leaders:
Murphy, Simpson, Rowe, Kreuzer, Thomas.

We lack leaders and these guys are getting older but are still playing well and offer leadership. We are desperate for leadership.

High Price:
J Silvagni, McKay, Kennedy, DeKoning, Jones, Schumacher, Plowman, Macreadie, Cuningham, Polson, Pickett, Phillips, Kerr, Byrne.

Some or all of these young guys have a future with us but if you can upgrade a player then well you do it. Rather keep than trade unless it's too good to refuse.

Expendable:
Kerridge, Lamb, Lang, Mullett, Garlett, O'Shea, Lobbe, Graham, Casboult, Wright, Shaw, Glass-McCasker, Lebois, A Silvagni, McDaid.

Depth players, McDaid a long term project. Not much ability here, lucky to be at Carlton otherwise would not be playing in a good side.

Our young premium players are off limits. Our leaders are off limits unless replaced by something really good and incoming leadership. Border best 22 players are possible trade bait if an upgrade eventuates. Expendable players are those who would not be worth anything and would not hurt a great deal to lose although many will play games due to injuries. There really isn't much trade bait there to be honest, we need those players and many may become our future.

15 players on the list with no future in a reasonable Carlton side who are pretty ordinary. Some might be contracted but gee if we are saying we are not going to have a substantial list turnover then we must not have many opportunities to pick up players this season...

Would not at all be disappointed to see any or all of Daisy, Simmo, Kruezer or Rowe finish up at the club at the end of season.

 

[Soapy V]

The one thing i'd remove from that interview is that SOS clearly holding a grudge against Caro for the lies she made up about him over year ago. Not a professional enough from both parties and a bit too much vinegar for my taste.

Disagree. What she wrote was wrong and he deserved his chance to respond

 

[BrisbaneCFC]

Posted on the Main Board. More suited here.

SOS FC Interview summary:

3 strong drafts, supporters must remain patience. Generic stuff.

player demographic against Brisbane:
players 21 & under - Carlton 10, Brisbane 6
players 22-25 - Carlton 4, Brisbane 9

player demographic against Saints:
players 21 & under - Carlton 11, Saints 5
Players 22-25 - Carlton 3, Saints 9

Key players finding it difficult to perform without mature bodies.

Mature players (Lobbe, O'Shea, Shaw, Mullett. ect) were not brought in to be long term players but to provide VFL depth to help the young list flourish. They weren't brought in to play AFL however with 16 injuries the MC is forced to play them.

SOS really hates it when his trades are not viewed holistically, however was defensive in his approach on the GWS 4 pickups. Kinda seemed like he thought the more players, the better. But his rebuttal about the trades that have worked saved him here. (ex. Henderson for Mckay, Tom Bell for Curnow ect.)

"How does Leigh Matthews know what happens behind the doors at Carlton Football Club" SOS accusing the negative feedback he is receiving is due to mislead or fabricated articles written by Caroline Wilson."
Also denies that himself, was a henchmen involved with the sacking of Trigg, outing her as a bullshit artist. (Trigg employed SOS, they good mates)

SOS is the only list manager in 6 years that has to come out and justify his case. Rebuilding is hard and Carlton are sticking to the process and they've achieved everything that was mapped out to supporters so far.

"It's really easy to build a list to get to 8th, 9th or 10th, but to win a premiership will take a long time." "It took Richmond a long time"

Chris Bond potentially to replace McKay. Probably Wilson making s**t up again.

"Giants have won 13 games in their first three years, I've been through this in terms of the patience side of things."

SOS calling out Lloyd on an article written a few years ago saying Gold Coast had a better list than GWS. "Things change and you gotta be patient because players will develop at different levels. Not linear."

Giants were just as much under pressure as Carlton.

Carlton are a new team, similar to the expansion clubs.

"Everything is for sale" - referring to trades/pick 1

Good culture, two leadership groups an old one and a young one.

Andy McKay elected to draft Jack Silvagni, SOS stepped away from the decision to remove any bias.

Stick fat with Bolts, great teacher. It's been tough for him because he cannot put out his best 22.

Caro: "When list managers are under pressure they get interview"
SOS: "Do they?"
Caro: "Yep, they do."
SOS: "Who? "
Caro: ".......Well.... Uh........"

Caro: "Bolton is just as culpable"
SOS: "We're all in it together, everyone at the club."

Felt more of an interrogation than an interview.

I find the 'everything is for sale' comment most interesting. I take that to mean nothing, and no-one is off the table trade wise. I'd also absolutely love to know which players Bolton regards as his ' best 22 '. Not who the supporters think, but BB himself.

 

[The_Wookie]

Well SOS has me back on board. Exactly what i wanted to hear.

 

[BlueRenaissance]

+ 1 on SoS.

On the everything is for sale bit, i can only guess he has got a little bit defensive there and is trying to re-assure supporters he is not one dimensional and locked into one way of doing things (drafting young kids only). He is trying to say, "within reason" he is willing to look at things.

 

[BOMBERS 4 LIFE!!!!]

Just came to say kudos to sos for fronting up on FC thought he handled it well. was actully rooting for him when Caro was attacking him like a savage dog she's one horrible person lols

 

[HARKER]

1. "It's really easy to build a list to get to 8th, 9th or 10th, but to win a premiership will take a long time." "It took Richmond a long time"

2. SOS: "We're all in it together, everyone at the club."

Haven't seen the interview but just on these two points:

1. People forget that Richmond were forced to admit they hadn't been building a list to win Premierships, but just to stay competitive. Remember?
There is a lot more to why they're 'functioning' now, than list alone. We should also be aware of that.

2. "We're all in it together"? Are we? Is Andy McKay in it also?
SOS saying what he has to say, but staying the course isn't always as easy as it sets out to be, when the heat really gets turned up.

Playing devils advocate here:
Plenty to play out yet and as much as I want us to stay the course, we don't really know what that course is. How can we when things can change as we go along? i.e. Draftees possibly not working out. FA or Trade targets choosing not to come. Injuries crueling players.

This is a big year for SOS and the team, even after saying that the ground work had been done last year. It's much bigger than that.
At least we'll hold what seems to be the golden ticket in pick #1, but it's all the other stuff that will make the real difference.....wonder who our new Head of Football will be?

 

[Blue_Fusion]

The one thing i'd remove from that interview is that SOS clearly holding a grudge against Caro for the lies she made up about him over year ago. Not a professional enough from both parties and a bit too much vinegar for my taste.

Why shouldn't he call her out on her s**t though? Bout time somebody did.

Nobody deserves to be wrongly accused about something especially in the media where it spreads like wildfire.

 

[blue healer]

Still waiting for a scenario

I'll give you one example of what may be considered, particularly if Lynch leaves GCS.

Would you consider a McKay for Brodie swap?

Reduces our extra talls, adds one to GCS to replace Lynch and gives us a young player who fits the shape we currently lack.

 

[Blue_Fusion]

Playing devils advocate here:
Plenty to play out yet and as much as I want us to stay the course, we don't really know what that course is. How can we when things can change as we go along? i.e. Draftees possibly not working out. FA or Trade targets choosing not to come. Injuries crueling players.

This is a big year for SOS and the team, even after saying that the ground work had been done last year. It's much bigger than that.
At least we'll hold what seems to be the golden ticket in pick #1, but it's all the other stuff that will make the real difference.....wonder who our new Head of Football will be?

I'm sure the club has a clear idea of what the course is. No one can predict things like injuries, whether draftees will work out at AFL level, whether FA and/or trade targets will choose to come or not. But can't fault them for trying their best, which is what I honestly think they're doing apart from refusing to apply for a priority pick.

If the draftees don't come along as planned, then we're set to remain in the bottom 4-5 teams for longer. In turn, we'll end up with more earlier picks on our list and eventually should come good.

If injuries cruel the list, then that's just bad luck and maybe can be put down to training and diet/supplement plans. Can't be worrying about that though it's mostly an uncontrollable variable. It's how we manage them that's the problem. Medical staff this year has been atrocious and should definitely be reviewed.

FA and trade targets will come if we're attractive enough. This is why I stress it's so important to keep playing defensively. This attacking edge to the gameplan this year I've never been on board with. I keep saying it, you can't apply attacking elements when you clearly don't have the cattle for it. Weak midfield compounded with the most stale and stagnant forward line I've ever seen at AFL level. Casboult, Lamb, Wright, JSOS and Garlett as regulars up forward and we're going to play attacking with some shred of success? Please spare me the insult.

Go back to being full on defensive. I likened the game to what Barcelona were playing, keep possession, be patient and frustrate the opposition. Build your attack when the time is right. It was working well for us last year and we need to go back to it again next year. Yeah sure, it may be boring at times, but it kept us in games and it absolutely makes us more attractive to FA's and trade targets when we're not getting thumped every week and we're tough to put away.

 

[Blue_Fusion]

I'll give you one example of what may be considered, particularly if Lynch leaves GCS.

Would you consider a McKay for Brodie swap?

Reduces our extra talls, adds one to GCS to replace Lynch and gives us a young player who fits the shape we currently lack.

Absolutely not. McKay has shown he is capable at AFL level. We need someone to support Charlie going forward. Brodie can't even get games in GC's midfield. That says enough to me.

 

[Blue_Fusion]

Let's keep pick #1. In my mind we absolutely take either Rankine or Walsh.

Need to apply for that end of 1st round priority pick though. With 1 win, we will get it.

Take #1, #19 + #24 to the draft.

Offer #27 to Swans for Lloyd.

Get LeCras and Horlin-Smith as FA's. (Maybe throw WC a late #70+ pick for LeCras)

Other possible FA targets for our forward line could be Fasolo or Puopolo.

That's one way we could bring in some experience as well as talent through the draft.

 

[blue healer]

Absolutely not. McKay has shown he is capable at AFL level. We need someone to support Charlie going forward. Brodie can't even get games in GC's midfield. That says enough to me.

Another who talks in absolutes.

Brodie is almost a full year younger, has played 2 less games than Mckay, was a number 9 draft pick and is 189 cms and 88 kgs.

That's already a body size that we desperately need and players don't go at pick 9 if they're no good (an argument that i'm sure has been used for the retention of McKay).

Looks like a potential win/win trade to me.

I am not saying this trade will get done or even should get done. Somebody asked for an example of what we could expect to trade one of our recent draftees, this is a quick example actually using a player that we have been rumoured to have contact with.

 

[Blue_Fusion]

Another who talks in absolutes.

Brodie is almost a full year younger, has played 2 less games than Mckay, was a number 9 draft pick and is 189 cms and 88 kgs.

That's already a body size that we desperately need and players don't go at pick 9 if they're no good (an argument that i'm sure has been used for the retention of McKay).

Looks like a potential win/win trade to me.

I am not saying this trade will get done or even should get done. Somebody asked for an example of what we could expect to trade one of our recent draftees, this is a quick example actually using a player that we have been rumoured to have contact with.

Don't care about his 'body size' he has huge question marks over his kicking.

And I gave you my opinion and that is absolutely not.

 

[Blue Viking]

Can I just say your injuries would have any list on it’s knees. Would the club be looking at Miles?

Only if he is injured and cannot do a pre-season due to surgery. If he fits this minimum requirement then yes we are interested.

 

[HereComesJuddy]

Another who talks in absolutes.

Brodie is almost a full year younger, has played 2 less games than Mckay, was a number 9 draft pick and is 189 cms and 88 kgs.

That's already a body size that we desperately need and players don't go at pick 9 if they're no good (an argument that i'm sure has been used for the retention of McKay).

Looks like a potential win/win trade to me.

I am not saying this trade will get done or even should get done. Somebody asked for an example of what we could expect to trade one of our recent draftees, this is a quick example actually using a player that we have been rumoured to have contact with.

I wouldnt

 

[Benaly28]

Sam Mitchell’s name just brought up my Sam McClure again and also said a number of coaches won’t be there next year.