Analysis 2018 List Management discussion Part 1 (continued in Part 2 - see OP for link)

[BlueRenaissance]

Assist with culture change
Command respect of players
Track record of development

Post a thread on the main board and ask how many fans would swap their current coach for Clarkson. There is your answer...

Clarkson is overrated. The one good thing about him is his ability to spot good assistants. Last year he couldn't stop s**t happening to his side due to injuries. Well, funnily enough, we have been smashed by injuries this year. Clarkson would not make a jot of difference on our 2018 except probably punching some fan in the face.

The clarkson, Wines type of talk is all about whining and i wantz good stuff right now and i cant wait. They are not the right fit for this club right now.

Show some fortitude and stay the line. The coaching, recruitment and talent in principle is in place. The results are being destroyed by 1) injuries and 2) list cloggers killing us in transition. The latter will be phased out soon enough completely changing the dynamic.

 

[Soapy V]

Genuine question - is he loved and we'll reregarded by the young guys?

absolutely loved

 

[Soapy V]

If that is the case I see no room in the 22 for Matthew Wright.

No issue with that

 

[Stamos]

If that is the case I see no room in the 22 for Matthew Wright.

I'd probably give him another year, but would hope he plays the year in the VFL.

 

[Arr0w]

The main board won't give a cross section of fans? Not suggesting Bolts vs Clarkson poll. Each team's coach vs Clarkson. Your reluctance kind of proves my point

Go post it

 

[AxeCapital2000]

Go post it

I don't know how to do a poll

 

[jd2010]

I see this years trade/draft period as massive for us. SOS will bring in as much quality as possible especially in the 22-25 year range. FA will be big and IMO any trades will be done using future picks. I don't see any young talent going out unless they request it. Then we will add another 4-5 talented kids via the draft

How do you see us being able to grab quality in that 22-25 age bracket? There's not much left in the FA pool. Might need to trade some later picks for a few. Any come to mind who you'd like to see come in? Personally I'd like us to have a go for Lloyd from Richmond. We've only really got Lamb who I'd say is a similar mould except Lloyd gets a kick and kicks some goals

 

[Soapy V]

How do you see us being able to grab quality in that 22-25 age bracket? There's not much left in the FA pool. Might need to trade some later picks for a few. Any come to mind who you'd like to see come in? Personally I'd like us to have a go for Lloyd from Richmond. We've only really got Lamb who I'd say is a similar mould except Lloyd gets a kick and kicks some goals

IMO that's just more deckchairs. We need to go after much better players like Gaff or Wines or Shiel or Kelly or similar. I'm sure SOS has some targets and a lot of work has already been done.

 

[norway blue]

Yep don't get the lack of appreciation for Jones.

If we put him up for trade would get a pick lower than 30 (and top 20 to the right team).

I think a few on here appreciate him .


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[Wickzki]

I disagree completely

Why overpay, when the list isn't ready.

Many examples of clubs over paying, whether it be money or draft picks, that only contributed to a short term rise, then prolonged the success, or contributed to the failure. In fact, we were one of those clubs.

North threw a war chest at both Martin and Kelly, with zero return

It is all about the timing

Agreed.

You can afford to overpay when the core depth of the club is as rich as it was in (using recent examples) Hawthorn or Geelong glory days. At that point the difference is maybe 31 talented players instead of 33. When you're struggling to put 22 players out on the park every week any overpaying through trades leaves you just that much shorter elsewhere.

We're still ten or so players away from being a trade overpay.

As far as free agency, if it's done with the forward thinking of meeting salary cap floors (especially front loading contracts) then by all means. But don't overpay a club in a better position than what we are to do so.

Do you really think they overpaid for Gibbs? I don't think so. I think they paid market value + 10-15%. He is a great player.

I believe that they paid overs for Gibbs. However, it is arguable both ways.

He's a great player but he hasn't proven over the course of his career which is winding down that he's a consistent match winner. For a bloke his age they paid for a consistent matchwinner. Make no mistake, they'll claim that he was the cream but for a cream player the price was exorbitant. Of course, injuries to other Crows mids haven't helped them.

Even if he does play another 4-5 seasons, which I believe is arguable, the latter years wont be close to as good as what he is now. He won't be bad by any means but far from elite.

What do you think Murph is worth ? Saw reports we have offered 600 by 2 and it was suggested he wouldnt see offers over 450 from other clubs.

Given the injury history, 300k per at his age is the contract that a club in our position can afford to pay him. If he gets more than that elsewhere then good luck to him. He's missed 8 of 12 games this year and over half of 2016. His 2017 seems unlikely to happen again.

Hunt would be perfect for us...can't crack a strong Demons team and we need some dash off half back.
Jake Lloyd too.

Hunt's defensive effort and consistency of said effort is questionable. Pressure and effort stats support the eye test. Doesn't win enough of his own ball to make up for it.

Would do it if very cheap otherwise pass.

Well I am not sure where your info comes from. Look at sam mitchell . I see a couple of reasons why McVeigh would consider a move to us.

McVeigh put himself on the market ala Mitchell and Hodge last year. Longmire asked him to stay at the Swans and he'd have the coaching gig he was leaving for in Sydney. As he's been there so long he is very settled and happy there. He got what he sought so he stayed.

If we end up taking Lukosius in the draft, I'd be mighty tempted to trade McKay...

McKay + 27 to Sydney for Lloyd + 16.
McKay to Collingwood for 13, swap 2019 second rounders.

No, no, and no.

Do not trade McKay. You build a forward line around Curnow (as the mobile, third tall), McKay and Lukosius. You add a defensive minded accurate small, a rotating mid and a playmaker. Forward line would be set for a decade.

McKay has bundles of potential but is yet to do enough to match his pick 10 status. He's worth MUCH more to us than he would be in trade.

Also just wondering if anyone knows much about this Harris Andrews bloke?

Big Harris Andrews fan. However, be wary, that he's someone who has physically peaked rather early and has taken an absolute pounding in the Brisbane backline. We've seen what that can do to key defenders later in their careers (e.g. Thornton, Jamison).

He's being groomed as their next captain.

... who is a tremendous boofhead, and probably has concussion related issues due to playing like a wrecking ball.

Might be unkind to say so, but as a pundit I like mine intellectual but grounded, and Brown is neither. He's never had to do the hard yards in clubland, trying to be a coach; he's not done analytics of any form, and he genuinely looks as though there's a teleprompter telling him statistics when he wheels them out. He is not an analyst, nor any kind of commentator; he's a famous face, someone to build around, safe in the notion that people will tune into hear him talk, not for what he says.

Amen. Reminds me of an NRL Footy Show personality rather than an AFL one.

Jones is important imo .

Jones is a good veteran body who is super enthusiastic and always willing to do what the coaches ask of him. However, he is not someone to pencil into your future Carlton Football Club premiership team. He's someone who is great to have around the young blokes who are impressionable but I expect him to slide down and out of the depth chart by the time we're premiership contenders.

That’s not true, tall forwards are generally exclusive to the first 25 picks but defenders and rucks are found throughout.

Although it's a couple of years ago, and things change, there was a good statistic that demonstrated that unless you took a ruckman in the first round the next best place to draft one was the rookie draft!

 

[Iamcarlton]

Not directly related to list mgmt but just want to say it.

Anyone else notice in the Freo game that even though we are quite tall down back, quite often our talls were no where to be seen when their key talls took easy marks. Simpson and others running back trying to contest against their talls. Might be all related to turnovers but the smalls have teh smarts/quickness to get back. The talls nowhere to be seen. Irritating.

We have so many talls...at least let us see a tall v tall in our backline. I'm on board the Weitering train but hell...make him accountable 1 on 1. He is not the body type (speed-wise) that i want playing a loose/free man role.

When and if we can stop turning the ball over at every opportunity we get further up the field it will make our defenders lives including Weitering a hell of a lot easier .
Our footskills have been diabolical this year .
But certainly do understand the frustration with the zoning off we do .

 

[jd2010]

IMO that's just more deckchairs. We need to go after much better players like Gaff or Wines or Shiel or Kelly or similar. I'm sure SOS has some targets and a lot of work has already been done.

I think we are still 1-2 years off being able to lure one of that caliber. Wines has announced he is staying (or is close to doing so). As for the others it's an impossible sell right now. Norf can basically match our $$$ but can sell a better chance of finals in 2019. Melbourne, Hawthorn, Collingwood and their current clubs can't match the $$$ but can offer more chance at success in 2019.

Also would you really want someone on your list who is clearly choosing money over winning? In the long run a money chaser will let you down

 

[HBF]

They actually played a bit better after getting booed off at half time.

So the fans reaction seemed to have worked better on the players than the coaches 1/4 time talk.

Hard not to play better after what they dished up in the first half. Worst half of footy i have seen from a Carlton side.

 

[LordLucifer]

IMO that's just more deckchairs. We need to go after much better players like Gaff or Wines or Shiel or Kelly or similar. I'm sure SOS has some targets and a lot of work has already been done.

No more deckchairs please ............…

 

[AceAndy]

Hard not to play better after what they dished up in the first half. Worst half of footy i have seen from a Carlton side.

Agree, i cant recall a worse half in 50 years of watching the Blues.

 

[HBF]

He's a smart midfielder with good skills but it will be hard for him to break into that role with what we have have. Small forward could be his role but has a lot to learn. Struggle to see him as a small defender but you never know

The club obviously rate him. Extended him for another two years.

 

[rog1995]

Let's hope we don't trade any future picks.. statistically we are the worst Carlton side since 1900. Huge gamble to be trading any future picks in the position we're in.

 

[Wickzki]

Agree, i cant recall a worse half in 50 years of watching the Blues.

Second half against Sydney at PP in '02. We scored 4 points. They won the half by 50 in less than ideal conditions.

 

[Soapy V]

I think we are still 1-2 years off being able to lure one of that caliber. Wines has announced he is staying (or is close to doing so). As for the others it's an impossible sell right now. Norf can basically match our $$$ but can sell a better chance of finals in 2019. Melbourne, Hawthorn, Collingwood and their current clubs can't match the $$$ but can offer more chance at success in 2019.

Also would you really want someone on your list who is clearly choosing money over winning? In the long run a money chaser will let you down

I feel we will recruit some really top players in 2018/19. We have the money, the picks if needed and players will see where we are heading. All they need to do is walk into the club and they will see it. I have absolutely no fear about our recruiting in 2018/19.

 

[norway blue]

When and if we can stop turning the ball over at every opportunity we get further up the field it will make our defenders lives including Weitering a hell of a lot easier .
Our footskills have been diabolical this year .
But certainly do understand the frustration with the zoning off we do .

I have hopes for jones.


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[BlueRenaissance]

Would be a very hard sell to lure a mature ager if we put in a few more Freo performances. In these cases you just have to take off your blinkered blue vision goggles and put yourself in their shoes and their manager's shoes.

No player wants to be part of ridicule and poor performance when they can easily choose the alternative. Each of these players is a brand to their manager and they are looking to build their brand not risk it at a cruddy club. Anyway, that is their view.

Behind the scenes we have a great list building it is just that a player's manager wont bother digging to see it. No need to take the risk.

Not out of the question but we need to more luck than other clubs.

 

[Iamcarlton]

I have hopes for jones.


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Jones will be fine when we are playing better and with Docherty back in the side next year .

 

[HBF]

We can’t blame a young inexperienced team for poor performance and then blame poor senior players at the same time. We are just bad full stop.

We just had a bad day at the office. Not too long ago we pushed Geelong all the way down the Highway, and didn't do a bad job against Sydney either.

 

[BlueRenaissance]

Jones will be fine when we are playing better and with Docherty back in the side next year .

See, i dont see this. When Jones is 20 metres clear and punches the ball it says a lot. Guy has zero awareness of what is around him. Yes, he does have kamikazi attack on the ball. His crazy desperation is keeping him in the AFL, not footy IQ/skill.

Going forward it is hard for others around him to understand what he is doing. Impossible to build consistent defensive behaviours with a wild card player.

The only thing i see is that he goes in hard and i love that bit.

 

[Iamcarlton]

See, i dont see this. When Jones is 20 metres clear and punches the ball it says a lot. Guy has zero awareness of what is around him. Yes, he does have kamikazi attack on the ball. His crazy desperation is keeping him in the AFL, not footy IQ/skill.

Going forward it is hard for others around him to understand what he is doing. Impossible to build consistent defensive behaviours with a wild card player.

The only thing i see is that he goes in hard and i love that bit.

I can understand your thoughts think back to last year we were competitive most weeks until towards the end .
We had a settled side with Docherty in the backline they had a much better understanding between each other because we were settled .
A lot of the troubles with Jones are stemming from constant turnovers up field and our backman have been instructed to zone off so we and Jones are getting caught in no mans land .
Its all part of the learning curve for him as its all still new to him playing backline .
But still confident that in a better performed settled side with Docherty in and a team not turning the ball over as much Jones can be a weapon . JMO .