Play Nice 2018 Non AFL Admin, Crowds, Ratings, Participation etc thread

NoobPie

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#26
They would say that!
Maybe at the end of the game before the main match could have had a few thousand coming for the main game but I watched some of the start of the second half and you could have fired a gun without hitting someone.
He's referring to the Carlton versus bulldogs practice match.

In terms of the w league, I'm sure that's what they do....pretty much anyone who buzzes in before the final whistle is counted.
 

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Kwality

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#27
He's referring to the Carlton versus bulldogs practice match.

In terms of the w league, I'm sure that's what they do....pretty much anyone who buzzes in before the final whistle is counted.
Not a problem for a scratch match, but you'd hope regular games have a more rigorous process.
 

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#28
They would say that!
Maybe at the end of the game before the main match could have had a few thousand coming for the main game but I watched some of the start of the second half and you could have fired a gun without hitting someone.The female soccer is well and truly over hyped by its small number of real fans.Check out the games on ABC TV.
 

Kwality

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#29
They would say that!
Maybe at the end of the game before the main match could have had a few thousand coming for the main game but I watched some of the start of the second half and you could have fired a gun without hitting someone.The female soccer is well and truly over hyped by its small number of real fans.Check out the games on ABC TV.
The strength of Womens Soccer is its international relevance not the home & away stuff.
They have the games people pay to see, stand alone games.

Comparisons to pump up or put down AFL &/or soccer is transparent as they have quite different corporate models.
 

NoobPie

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#30
The strength of Womens Soccer is its international relevance not the home & away stuff.
They have the games people pay to see, stand alone games.

Comparisons to pump up or put down AFL &/or soccer is transparent as they have quite different corporate models.
He's comparing the reported numbers at W league games with the what can clearly be observed at the ground.

Not clear what you mean by "corporate models" (I'm sure you don't either going on past form) but I'm not sure how much the "international relevance" is going to help women's soccer in a way it hasn't for men's soccer - particularly given men's soccer is abetted by having the highest profile professional club competitions in the world.

Despite getting 2 games a week on FTA gifted by the taxpayer, the W League games don't register in the ratings on SBS or Foxtel. The A League barely does as well.

Just 54K watched the big blue last night . When you think that people talk of AFL ratings being terrible in Sydney where the Swans average 90K plus per game....

In terms of interest levels, the AFLW has the men's soccer covered so I'm not sure there is a relevant comparison to be made with the women's soccer
 

Kwality

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#31
He's comparing the reported numbers at W league games with the what can clearly be observed at the ground.

Not clear what you mean by "corporate models" (I'm sure you don't either going on past form) but I'm not sure how much the "international relevance" is going to help women's soccer in a way it hasn't for men's soccer - particularly given men's soccer is abetted by having the highest profile professional club competitions in the world.

Despite getting 2 games a week on FTA gifted by the taxpayer, the W League games don't register in the ratings on SBS or Foxtel. The A League barely does as well.

Just 54K watched the big blue last night . When you think that people talk of AFL ratings being terrible in Sydney where the Swans average 90K plus per game....

In terms of interest levels, the AFLW has the men's soccer covered so I'm not sure there is a relevant comparison to be made with the women's soccer
As long as you get the answer you want, no need to adjust those blinkers.
 

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#33
i've read that some believe relegation will revive the a-league. maybe, but imagine the chaos if victory or wanderers got dropped and wound up playing in second division. the sports big backers arent going to pour money into these franchises if there's a risk they'll be relegated and be running around playing in Morwell on a thrursday night in front of 300 people.
The problem with a potential pro/rel for Australian soccer isn't this (although this is an issue) as much as it is concentration of teams from Melbourne/Sydney. It won't be straight pro/rel to state leagues. 12-20 teams in new 2nd division will have 3 quarters teams from Melbourne/Sydney so all it takes is 2 seasons of Adelaide, Brisbane, Perth being relegated in favour of Sydney Olympic or Heidleberg United for Soccer to have no major professional presence in those cities. And even if a team like Adelaide United get relegated for 2 seasons and then come back up, they would have surely lost fans in that period and their new crowds would be even worse than before.

And then you have to factor in the fact that it will change the whole dynamic of private ownership (as Victory are pretty much the only profitable team and other owners are happy to wear a several million dollar a loss per year as part of the goodwill/it's cool to own a sports team factor) and how that will change. Will private owners stop investing in teams like Adelaide because they see an opportunity for a Sydney team to get promoted, play more derbies against other Sydney based teams?

I say it like it's a bad thing, when inherently there isn't, but just because it's at complete odds to what Gallop and co say about Soccer being the biggest sport in Australia. To achieve that, they obviously need to get a fanbase in every city and increase support tenfold in terms of their current TV viewership. Whilst unlikely, it becomes impossible without a top division club vehicle to garner support from the 3rd, 4th, 5th biggest cities in Australia. In much the same way that GWS is a vehicle for more AFL support in Western Sydney, every A-League club is the equivalent in their city as they're both trying to increase natural week-long week-out support. But imagine how GWS would take a battering if they were relegated to a hypothetical second division - there growth in footy support would be stunted - so that's the problem.

When you see hardcore soccer fans on 442 forums claiming that soccer will be the biggest sport in Australia but also demanding pro/rel I can't help but laugh. They're more or less mutually exclusive in my eyes.
 

Kwality

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#34
OK dude, I don't think I'll be taking advice about blinkers from someone incapable of following basic logic or writing a coherent sentence

...tell me about these...corporate models again?
Where would you like me to start on the structure of footy & soccer .... comparisons are indeed odious, say the AFL & FIFA as peak bodies, right thru to AFLW & soccers World Cup Women, ie peak comps.

Basic logic was it, comparing AFLW with the womans A-league .... buckle on those blinkers !!
 
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NoobPie

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#35
Where would you like me to start on the structure of footy & soccer .... comparisons are indeed odious, say the AFL & FIFA as peak bodies, right thru to AFLW & soccers World Cup Women, ie peak comps.

Basic logic was it, comparing AFLW with the womans A-league .... buckle on those blinkers !!
What on earth are you trying to say?

Maybe start with one idea at a time and read it over a few times to be sure it makes sense
 

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NoobPie

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#37
You might start with a very basic course in comprehension, those blinkers are working a treat. Schools back soon, dont stress, ask for help.
Oh goodie....hopefully the school teaches me about "corporate models" and the teachers are all bitter old morons
 

Rob

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#39
Interesting tweet I came across (thanks to a Wookie retweet)


What I found interesting was the massive gap in match day revenues between the top and the teams slightly below. Once you get past the top few in each league the gap is like a grand canyon. £100m+ for Man U and Arsenal compared to Everton £14m as an example. And Everton isn't exactly a small club. In Spain the gap is even more pronounced.
Funnily enough, the top AFL clubs will probably have a higher match day return than some of the clubs in that list. West Coast will probably pull $30m plus from matchday this year, Freo won't be that far behind. That's £17m, higher than a lot of premier league clubs (assuming a few more PL clubs not appearing in that list are less than Everton). Despite AFL clubs having half the number of home games.

Course they're dwarfed by the largest soccer clubs.
 

NoobPie

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#40
Interesting tweet I came across (thanks to a Wookie retweet)


What I found interesting was the massive gap in match day revenues between the top and the teams slightly below. Once you get past the top few in each league the gap is like a grand canyon. £100m+ for Man U and Arsenal compared to Everton £14m as an example. And Everton isn't exactly a small club. In Spain the gap is even more pronounced.
Funnily enough, the top AFL clubs will probably have a higher match day return than some of the clubs in that list. West Coast will probably pull $30m plus from matchday this year, Freo won't be that far behind. That's £17m, higher than a lot of premier league clubs (assuming a few more PL clubs not appearing in that list are less than Everton). Despite AFL clubs having half the number of home games.

Course they're dwarfed by the largest soccer clubs.
It actually just highlights the reality of european soccer. There are 5 big leagues with between 2 and 6 (for the EPL, the rest are increasingly closer to two) massive clubs who dominate it. To varying degrees they get a greater share of the domestic TV revenues and increasingly dominate the CL which means they add tens of millions more from that. They have now cultivated global brands that sop up all the commercial revenues to be had as well

The reality for the smaller clubs - even the likes of Leicester and Everton (West Ham are lucky as a london club that has been gifted an olympic stadium) - their revenues are overwhelmingly courtesy of playing in the top flight and getting access to a cut of TV revenues. But the paradox is they need to spend that on player salaries to stay up in the top flight and so can never invest in new stadiums that might see them increase their match day revenues longer term
 

Rob

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#41
It actually just highlights the reality of european soccer. There are 5 big leagues with between 2 and 6 (for the EPL, the rest are increasingly closer to two) massive clubs who dominate it. To varying degrees they get a greater share of the domestic TV revenues and increasingly dominate the CL which means they add tens of millions more from that. They have now cultivated global brands that sop up all the commercial revenues to be had as well

The reality for the smaller clubs - even the likes of Leicester and Everton (West Ham are lucky as a london club that has been gifted an olympic stadium) - their revenues are overwhelmingly courtesy of playing in the top flight and getting access to a cut of TV revenues. But the paradox is they need to spend that on player salaries to stay up in the top flight and so can never invest in new stadiums that might see them increase their match day revenues longer term
Thinking about it more if we were to compare matchday returns across AFL clubs there would probably be almost as large a disparity. At the bottom you would obviously have GWS and the Suns at a few million, followed by the Lions and the smallest Vic clubs, and they'd be what, 6 or 7 million at a guess? And the top clubs will be upwards of $25 million - which will include the 2 Perth teams, Collingwood, maybe the Crows and Richmond? West Coast could actually top $50 million just from matchday.

Big difference in the AFL being that the smaller clubs get larger distributions from the league. In Europe it's the opposite.
 
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NoobPie

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#42
Not necessarily. The media deal in England is partly allocated based on finishing position (merit payment), not size of the club. So when a small club like Leicester won the league they received the among the largest distribution of any club. Also there are other distributions available, such as the relegation compensatio payment. You get 10s of millions as a lump sum for finishing bottom 3 in the EPL.

https://www.premierleague.com/news/60138

Also, continental competitions like European and Asian champions leagues pay based on finishing position + prize money per match won. This season the Australian A-League clubs are playing for an AUD$5 million prize in the ACL + accumulated prize money from the group stages and finals.
I think this is misleading

Of the domestic TV rights
-half is split 20 ways
-a quarter is split based on how many times a team is telecast live in the UK - which basically sees the big 6 clubs get double the rest get on average
-the other quarter is allocated by finishing position - which in the last 9 seasons has seen the top 6: fill all the top 6 spots 4 times, fill 5 of them 4 times and on one occasion fill 4 spots. In other words, there have been just 6 occasions when a "non-big 6" club has broken in to the top 6 on the table out of a possible 63.

The international rights are split equally but the big 6 are pushing hard for that to change

The parachute payments to relegated clubs are not some windfall, they are designed to allow relegated clubs to survive the massive financial costs of relegation

The Champions league is also increasingly dominated by the top few clubs in the big 5 leagues which just reinforces their dominance

Even in the freak year they won it, Leicester got less tv monies than all the big 6 bar liverpool
 

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#43
I think this is misleading

Of the domestic TV rights
-half is split 20 ways
-a quarter is split based on how many times a team is telecast live in the UK - which basically sees the big 6 clubs get double the rest get on average
-the other quarter is allocated by finishing position - which in the last 9 seasons has seen the top 6: fill all the top 6 spots 4 times, fill 5 of them 4 times and on one occasion fill 4 spots. In other words, there have been just 6 occasions when a "non-big 6" club has broken in to the top 6 on the table out of a possible 63.

The international rights are split equally but the big 6 are pushing hard for that to change

The parachute payments to relegated clubs are not some windfall, they are designed to allow relegated clubs to survive the massive financial costs of relegation

The Champions league is also increasingly dominated by the top few clubs in the big 5 leagues which just reinforces their dominance

Even in the freak year they won it, Leicester got less tv monies than all the big 6 bar liverpool
Define a big 6 club in England though. The top of the league is volatile. 10 years ago Man City was a joke. 20 years ago Chelsea was a joke. Tottenham is the least successful top 6 team you could imagine. Other storied "big" clubs haven't won much of anything domestically for decades- Liverpool, Everton, Newcastle... second div Leeds and Blackburn have won more in the EPL.

If there is such a thing as a big 6 club in England then bottle it and preserve it because it won't be the same 6 next decade.
 

NoobPie

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#44
Define a big 6 club in England though. The top of the league is volatile. 10 years ago Man City was a joke. 20 years ago Chelsea was a joke. Tottenham is the least successful top 6 team you could imagine. Other storied "big" clubs haven't won much of anything domestically for decades- Liverpool, Everton, Newcastle... second div Leeds and Blackburn have won more in the EPL.

If there is such a thing as a big 6 club in England then bottle it and preserve it because it won't be the same 6 next decade.
I'll do better than define them, I'll name them - The two manchester clubs, three big london clubs (arsenal, chelsea and tottenham) and Liverpool

As I said, in the last 9 seasons only 6 teams that aren't the "big 6" have made the top 6....funnily enough Everton twice whereas Liverpool have made way 4 of the 6 times. Only on 1 occasion did a non big 6 make the top 4 (Leicester) and did one big 6 finish lower than 8th. It is actually not since Everton finished 4th in 2004/05 that another non-big 6 team had made the top 4

upload_2018-1-30_23-21-48.png


Certainly correct that Chelsea and Man City were not always grouped thus. But how did they go about joining the raquet?

Alas, particularly if you have fond memories of a time when there was more dynamism in english soccer, this thing aint changing unless there is a massive structural change brought about by some circuit breaker (i.e. some revolution in revenue distribution or salary / transfer constraints).

Short of that structural change only volatility at the top of the league now is between the top 6 teams and buckle in cos that's how it shall remain in perpetuity....unless some other uber-billionaire from some corrupt country wants to launder their money and can get around the fair play laws, but even that is hard to see now
 

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#45
I'll do better than define them, I'll name them - The two manchester clubs, three big london clubs (arsenal, chelsea and tottenham) and Liverpool

As I said, in the last 9 seasons only 6 teams that aren't the "big 6" have made the top 6....funnily enough Everton twice whereas Liverpool have made way 4 of the 6 times. Only on 1 occasion did a non big 6 make the top 4 (Leicester) and did one big 6 finish lower than 8th. It is actually not since Everton finished 4th in 2004/05 that another non-big 6 team had made the top 4

View attachment 455046

Certainly correct that Chelsea and Man City were not always grouped thus. But how did they go about joining the raquet?

Alas, particularly if you have fond memories of a time when there was more dynamism in english soccer, this thing aint changing unless there is a massive structural change brought about by some circuit breaker (i.e. some revolution in revenue distribution or salary / transfer constraints).

Short of that structural change only volatility at the top of the league now is between the top 6 teams and buckle in cos that's how it shall remain in perpetuity....unless some other uber-billionaire from some corrupt country wants to launder their money and can get around the fair play laws, but even that is hard to see now
Looking to recent developments in England. We have West Ham now playing in the Olympic Stadium, Everton moving to a 60k seater. The wheel is turning. I see your points, I just think the idea of a "big 6" is only relevant as a banter tool among fans but doesn't reflect the reality of how the pendulum swings in football. As we see with Man City, next decade there will be another "obviously" big 6 club there in someone's place, and the beauty is we don't know who it is. Although by then a big 6 will be more like a big 8 or big 10.
 

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#46
Looking to recent developments in England. We have West Ham now playing in the Olympic Stadium, Everton moving to a 60k seater. The wheel is turning. I see your points, I just think the idea of a "big 6" is only relevant as a banter tool among fans but doesn't reflect the reality of how the pendulum swings in football. As we see with Man City, next decade there will be another "obviously" big 6 club there in someone's place, and the beauty is we don't know who it is. Although by then a big 6 will be more like a big 8 or big 10.
Well I think you are setting yourself up for massive disappointment with your very rosey wishful thinking

The only way there will be any shift from now (beyond some unlikely structural change) is:

1. if there is a financial disaster at one of those big 6 clubs...or maybe a long run of 6th or lower finishes sees one of them (probably only tottenham realistically) drop off the back of pack....leaving a big 5

2. is some uber billionaire from some corrupt country buys out a "next biggest" club (probably only everton, west ham or maybe aston villa realistically) and is able to get around the financial fair play laws or defy gravity for long enough.

Again, I would say that (2) is increasingly unlikely because the draw bridge has been pulled up and the moat is flooded.

To point to the volatility in the early premier league table or the old division one as evidence of what might happen in the future is fanciful.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2017/jun/01/premier-league-finances-club-by-club

This is the sad Sisyphean reality from now on I'm afraid....the best the rest can hope for - beyond a once in a couple of decade miracle - is to be out of relegation danger by 2/3rds of the way through the season. This is the reality even for your candidates to join the big X. This is because they don't earn anywhere near enough from matchday / commercial to ever challenge the big 6 but also to overcome the pooling of the bulk of the tv revenues to get safe distance from the the unwashed masses. And each year the big 6 just get further and further away

upload_2018-1-31_9-23-29.png
 

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#47
Interesting tweet I came across (thanks to a Wookie retweet)


What I found interesting was the massive gap in match day revenues between the top and the teams slightly below. Once you get past the top few in each league the gap is like a grand canyon. £100m+ for Man U and Arsenal compared to Everton £14m as an example. And Everton isn't exactly a small club. In Spain the gap is even more pronounced.
Funnily enough, the top AFL clubs will probably have a higher match day return than some of the clubs in that list. West Coast will probably pull $30m plus from matchday this year, Freo won't be that far behind. That's £17m, higher than a lot of premier league clubs (assuming a few more PL clubs not appearing in that list are less than Everton). Despite AFL clubs having half the number of home games.

Course they're dwarfed by the largest soccer clubs.
Look at the size of stadiums given you play 19 home games in the league title season, 17 in Germany as they are the only 1 of the big 5 leagues that has 18 and not 20 teams in the top Division, if you go deep into Champions League that's another 6 to 8 games, same with the Europa league games, then there are the Football Association Cup games plus most Euro leagues tend to have a 4th comp teams can play in. So if a big club goes well compared to another club going poorly there could be around 10-14 games difference and if you have a 60k-80k stadium that is a shitload more revenue.

Manchester United's ground capacity is 75,000, Everton's is 39,500, Leicester City's is 33,000. If the average season ticket is £1,000 then that's £40m difference there and if its £1,000 for the bigger club and £500 for the smaller capacity club that's £60m difference. I don't know if you have pay extra on top of season ticket prices for Champion League or Europa games. For 2017-18 in the EPL

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football...er-cent-premier-league-ticket-prices-reduced/
Average season ticket prices across England's top flight are at their lowest levels since 2013, having dropped for a second successive year, with 82.5 per cent of all ticket prices in the division having fallen or remained the same. Promoted Huddersfield offer the lowest-costing season tickets in the league at £100, while Arsenal are at the other end of that scale at £891, and the Gunners' most expensive season ticket is also unmatched at £1,768.50....
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football...er-cent-premier-league-ticket-prices-reduced/

and here are the comparison of matchday ticket costs around the EPL
http://www.goal.com/en-au/news/premier-league-tickets-prices-cost/p3a46sx6u8kr14mmpp7kn5dwt

Italian Football has seen a massive drop off in crowds, partly because its become a TV game, TV is now the money spinner for the big Italian clubs as they can sign their own TV deals, partly because of violence and its not female friendly environment. Napoli when Maradona was playing in the mid 80's averaged 70,000+ for most of those 5 or so years now its around 35,000. Juventus used to play in a 69,000 capacity stadium now its plays at new stadium that holds 41,000. Inter Milan used to average around 65,000+ 20 years ago now its 45,000.

Broussia Dortmand figures are surprising as they have the biggest stadium in the Bundesliga at 81,000. Maybe they didn't have a good year in 2016-17 and didn't play many other games out side the 17 home games for the league title.

Athletico Madrid at 68k have a smaller stadium than both Real Madrid 81k and Barcelona 99.5k but they only average low to mid 40k crowds compared to the big 2's 70k plus.
 

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#48
Looking to recent developments in England. We have West Ham now playing in the Olympic Stadium, Everton moving to a 60k seater. The wheel is turning. I see your points, I just think the idea of a "big 6" is only relevant as a banter tool among fans but doesn't reflect the reality of how the pendulum swings in football. As we see with Man City, next decade there will be another "obviously" big 6 club there in someone's place, and the beauty is we don't know who it is. Although by then a big 6 will be more like a big 8 or big 10.
Man City and Arsenal have a new stadium
Man U have the biggest league stadium
Spurs will move into their new stadium next season. Currently playing at Wembley and have the record for highest attended game as a result.
Liverpool upgrading the kop.
Chelsea trying to get a new stadium.

West Ham don’t own their stadium and already getting grief about upgrades.

The wheel isn’t turning that much.
 

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#49
Man City and Arsenal have a new stadium
Man U have the biggest league stadium
Spurs will move into their new stadium next season. Currently playing at Wembley and have the record for highest attended game as a result.
Liverpool upgrading the kop.
Chelsea trying to get a new stadium.

West Ham don’t own their stadium and already getting grief about upgrades.

The wheel isn’t turning that much.
Arsenal haven't won it for 15 years
Liverpool haven't won it for 28 years
Tottenham haven't won it for 57 years
 

CrowsB4hoes

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#50
Arsenal haven't won it for 15 years
Liverpool haven't won it for 28 years
Tottenham haven't won it for 57 years
What's your point? Leeds and Blackburn have all won in the Premier League era and both since been relegated. Leicester more likely to be relegated before they finish top 6 again. The next 10 years though will also see all those 6 sides finish top 6 with some rare exceptions.
 
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