Play Nice 2018 Non AFL Admin, Crowds, Ratings, Participation etc thread

Rob

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We have to be careful not to judge the figures entirely against other sports. Especially the A-League whose numbers have fallen off a cliff this year. It might be an easy comparison to make, but the AFLW should be looking at growth year to year now - I.e they should not be happy if numbers are down 20% even if the A-League's numbers are down 40%.
Which isn't to say numbers are down, I imagine Wookie has the figures for that.
 

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NoobPie

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We have to be careful not to judge the figures entirely against other sports. Especially the A-League whose numbers have fallen off a cliff this year. It might be an easy comparison to make, but the AFLW should be looking at growth year to year now - I.e they should not be happy if numbers are down 20% even if the A-League's numbers are down 40%.
Which isn't to say numbers are down, I imagine Wookie has the figures for that.
I agree with that largely

I think the key for the AFLW is how it retains numbers over the season

People whinged about the lack of promotion before the season starts but really the key test is how many people are still watching in round 7

The problem with raw comparisons with the soccer is that, in terms of foxtel, 30K ratings of people who are largely getting foxtel to watch the A League are more valuable than 40K ratings of people watching the AFLW who have foxtel for the AFL season (or other sports)
 

jatz14

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I agree with that largely

I think the key for the AFLW is how it retains numbers over the season

People whinged about the lack of promotion before the season starts but really the key test is how many people are still watching in round 7

The problem with raw comparisons with the soccer is that, in terms of foxtel, 30K ratings of people who are largely getting foxtel to watch the A League are more valuable than 40K ratings of people watching the AFLW who have foxtel for the AFL season (or other sports)
This is true, but really hard for even Foxtel to calculate. I do not recall telling Fox what sport drove my interest in getting Foxtel. Although they may hazard a guess based on my viewing habits, however, even this is tricky. I might buy it for AFL, and also, with a level of disinterest, watch super rugby, but that doesn't come through in the figures.

Based on twitter only, there seems to be a few AFLW followers that were not really AFL followers.

I also suspect there will be a bounce in A league ratings. It cannot keep dropping the way it has, there are to many with an interest in soccer for it to continue.

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Rob

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This is true, but really hard for even Foxtel to calculate. I do not recall telling Fox what sport drove my interest in getting Foxtel. Although they may hazard a guess based on my viewing habits, however, even this is tricky. I might buy it for AFL, and also, with a level of disinterest, watch super rugby, but that doesn't come through in the figures.

Based on twitter only, there seems to be a few AFLW followers that were not really AFL followers.
We're all guessing, but I suspect NoobPie is probably right - AFLW is unlikely to drive subscriptions. At best it might drive people to subscribe a month early - which would still be a good result.
The important thing is to try and ensure that FTA ratings justify the live coverage. If it stays around 100-150k 5 city metro then it's going to do that and have some value to a FTA network.
 

NoobPie

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Sorry but that is really dubious at a number of levels

Firstly, what is included in those funding figures? Funding related to elite facilities that are granted in the context of very long term contracts with a range of obligations are not relevant to participation numbers

Secondly, the Ausplay survey actually reports organised participation by adults so why use the figure that includes casual participation? People playing in the park do not need refurbished pavilions.

Soccer's problem is it cannot live within its means. If you are ripping kids off to pay for semi professionals / professionals then getting more grants isn't going to help. The model is broken
 
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HavUEvaSeenTheRain

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Are those figures in the article including professional club handouts? Because if so those $ figures per participant are almost irrelevant. You would have to get down to purely grassroots funding. Also I imagine country league and football clubs would gain a hell of a lot more funding conparitivly because the are vital to small communities.

One of the main reasons these participation figures are pointless are because recreational fisherman ect will start demanding billions.
Also where’s basketballs funding figures?
 

HavUEvaSeenTheRain

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Sorry but that is really dubious at a number of levels

Firstly, what is included in those funding figures? Funding related to elite facilities that are granted in the context of very long term contracts with a range of obligations are not relevant to participation numbers

Secondly, the Ausplay survey actually reports organised participation by adults so why use the figure that includes casual participation? People playing in the park do not need refurbished pavilions.

Soccer's problem is it cannot live within its means. If you are ripping kids off to pay for semi professionals / professionals than getting more grants isn't going to help. The model is broken
Beat me to it. I think they need to realise their position like basketball has. No doubt they envy Football and Leagues positions but they have to build it to get there not just expect it to be given to them.
All they have to do is get all their supporters engaged at all levels like the other codes have and it would happen. The problem is they aren’t because huge amounts of the players still see it as more of a hobby, like surfing, fishing, riding ect
 

Rob

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How do you determine 'funding to codes'? Any given park hosts multiple sports - I can only speak for Perth but it's pretty much the norm for any footy ground to become a cricket ground during summer. So if a new changeroom is built for that park, do you allocate 100% of it to both sports? Or say the council builds a rec centre with 10 different sports played there, how on earth do you allocate that? Or if a sporting team pays market rent for a facility, is the capital cost still counted?
And i'm also assuming this doesn't include expenses at the professional level - as if it did then participation is pretty much irrelevant. It's about bums on seats - obviously footy has a lot more demand for spectator infrastructure because it has more spectators.

Notwithstanding the fact that there is no source provided for that info, i'd want to see the methodology before taking it as fact.
 

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Sorry but that is really dubious at a number of levels

Firstly, what is included in those funding figures? Funding related to elite facilities that are granted in the context of very long term contracts with a range of obligations are not relevant to participation numbers
That im trying to get to the bottom of now.

Secondly, the Ausplay survey actually reports organised participation by adults so why use the figure that includes casual participation? People playing in the park do not need refurbished pavilions.
The Ausplay survey doesnt report organised participation by adult on a state by state basis.
 

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The_Wookie

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How do you determine 'funding to codes'? Any given park hosts multiple sports - I can only speak for Perth but it's pretty much the norm for any footy ground to become a cricket ground during summer. So if a new changeroom is built for that park, do you allocate 100% of it to both sports? Or say the council builds a rec centre with 10 different sports played there, how on earth do you allocate that? Or if a sporting team pays market rent for a facility, is the capital cost still counted?
And i'm also assuming this doesn't include expenses at the professional level - as if it did then participation is pretty much irrelevant. It's about bums on seats - obviously footy has a lot more demand for spectator infrastructure because it has more spectators.

Notwithstanding the fact that there is no source provided for that info, i'd want to see the methodology before taking it as fact.
If you see the twitter conversation with the journo I query it all the way down.
 

The_Wookie

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Are those figures in the article including professional club handouts? Because if so those $ figures per participant are almost irrelevant. You would have to get down to purely grassroots funding. Also I imagine country league and football clubs would gain a hell of a lot more funding conparitivly because the are vital to small communities.
All i can tell you is what they've given me. I asked for sources and the journo gave me the image you can see.

One of the main reasons these participation figures are pointless are because recreational fisherman ect will start demanding billions.
Also where’s basketballs funding figures?
Its an article written by a soccer journo about soccers percieved woes. basketball is irrelevant to their point.
 

HavUEvaSeenTheRain

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All i can tell you is what they've given me. I asked for sources and the journo gave me the image you can see.



Its an article written by a soccer journo about soccers percieved woes. basketball is irrelevant to their point.
I imagine Basketball was left out because they would be getting the least of the lot and they actually have a lot of similarities with soccer (high participation, low professional interest/engagement)
The difference is they acknowledge they have to live within their means
 
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Ausplay participant nos. are very unreliable.
Ausplay only surveys c. 25,000 people in Australia.

FAR worse, however, it simply asks respondents if they played a sport at least ONCE in the last 12 months. If the person answers "yes" to this question for a particular sport, they are then counted as a "participant" in that sport!
It is for this reason that walking, gym, swimming are recorded in such huge nos. by Ausplay; & it also records many "minor" sports having large nos.

The most reliable statistics are those compiled by each sporting organisation of its own, registered participants (which, very usefully, break down their nos. into the various formats eg club competition, school competition, one-off events, Gala days, short term community programs etc.).

On the Official AFL 2017 Registered participant nos., cf the Official FFA 2017 Registered participant nos. (ie approx. 1,547,000 to 1,631,000), Australian Football is now very close to soccer. Both Official figures, however, include a majority of "participants" who are only involved in these sports in a one-off Gala Day, very short program etc ie not lengthy, proper Club or school competition players.

The FFA, various soccer officials & journalists have been peddling the falsehood for several years that soccer has more "participants" than AF, RL, & RU combined. They say this, I suspect, to attempt to attract greater funding from govts., Councils, sponsors etc. - & more media attention.
 
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NoobPie

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That im trying to get to the bottom of now.
Good luck with that! You'd think the journalist who was given the information might have sought that out if he was professionally inclined


The Ausplay survey doesnt report organised participation by adult on a state by state basis.
It does for the five mainland states....and it should be noted that the table given to you was done at a national level.

This is based on Victoria's....

1550542828719.png


Basically soccer's informal participation numbers are inflated by the nature of the game. I personally play futsal and park soccer so I'd be showing up in those figures. Why should some soccer club get more money for facilities relative to other sports on account of me playing soccer at a school or in a park?
 

Rob

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All i can tell you is what they've given me. I asked for sources and the journo gave me the image you can see.
Basically he gave you the same numbers from the article but in table form, as if that gives them more credibility. For a professional journo, that's pretty pissweak.

Call me cynical, but I suspect there's a heavy influence of self interest here. Not just about the figures, but about the timing - I note it's a pretty narrow period it's looking at.
 

BobbyMorri

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But i find the whole "by the numbers" approach flawed. Every sport and club have different needs and it is a simplistic approach to just say a sport should get said funding just because it has x number of people. It is far too simplistic.

Our democracy "works" via lobbying for funding. That is the role of sporting organisations. You would hope that they would be able to make a really good case for more funding if little Timmy couldn't play on the weekend because there are no facilities available. For me, that is the most important aspect of sporting funding at grassroots level. That every kid/adult can play.

We get one of these articles about a sport every month or so. It must be soccers turn. Next month will be the other 2 football codes. Not saying the articles are not right, but every sport always wants more funding.
 

HavUEvaSeenTheRain

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But i find the whole "by the numbers" approach flawed. Every sport and club have different needs and it is a simplistic approach to just say a sport should get said funding just because it has x number of people. It is far too simplistic.

Our democracy "works" via lobbying for funding. That is the role of sporting organisations. You would hope that they would be able to make a really good case for more funding if little Timmy couldn't play on the weekend because there are no facilities available. For me, that is the most important aspect of sporting funding at grassroots level. That every kid/adult can play.

We get one of these articles about a sport every month or so. It must be soccers turn. Next month will be the other 2 football codes. Not saying the articles are not right, but every sport always wants more funding.
Yep they should have grounds to play on and I know especially in Sydney they are struggling so they definitely need support with that but the whole $ per participant is contrived bs
 

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But i find the whole "by the numbers" approach flawed. Every sport and club have different needs and it is a simplistic approach to just say a sport should get said funding just because it has x number of people. It is far too simplistic.

Our democracy "works" via lobbying for funding. That is the role of sporting organisations. You would hope that they would be able to make a really good case for more funding if little Timmy couldn't play on the weekend because there are no facilities available. For me, that is the most important aspect of sporting funding at grassroots level. That every kid/adult can play.

We get one of these articles about a sport every month or so. It must be soccers turn. Next month will be the other 2 football codes. Not saying the articles are not right, but every sport always wants more funding.

I am not aware of any other sport that will-fully miss-characterises the funding and participation of other sports in order to prosecute a case it should exclusively get more. I could be wrong but I have seen soccer do it twice now and can't recall a comparable example from other sports
 

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If I'm not mistaken that article even divvies up the broadcast revenue by participant. Not sure why, perhaps to show that soccer is getting ripped off from every which way?
 
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I am not aware of any other sport that will-fully miss-characterises the funding and participation of other sports in order to prosecute a case it should exclusively get more. I could be wrong but I have seen soccer do it twice[much more] now and can't recall a comparable example from other sports
Multiple soccer Officials & soccer media commentators have claimed falsely (paraphrasing) "Soccer has more participants than the other football codes combined". They select deliberately the deeply flawed Ausplay statistics that inflate soccer nos. cf Ausplay AF, RL, & RU nos. (Ausplay, a small survey of only 25,000, record a person as a sport "participant" if the person answers he/she played that sport only ONCE in the last YEAR!).

Soccer's Football West CEO J. Curtiss has also falsely claimed in Nov.2017 soccer has more GR participants in WA than AF.

https://www.communitynews.com.au/comment/news/soccer-cements-itself-as-was-most-popular-team-sport/

As you have correctly alluded to, it is much easier to play & organise the "simple", non-body contact small-sided game of soccer cf. the body-contact codes.
The Ausplay survey would be much more likely to identify/record these soccer "participants" (often playing only 1 game in a year) cf the more rigorous/physically demanding AF, RL, & RU codes.

The FFA, since 2017 only, use Ausplay statistics exclusively in their Annual Reports (ie not their own FFA Official, much more detailed, registered participants). All the other codes, in their Annual Reports to the ASC, quote exclusively their own Official registered participant nos. not a survey! These detailed FFA Annual Financial Reports are legally required to be presented to the Australian Sports Commission, & are supposed to be accurate.
The FFA's unique approach (ie citing only the very imprecise Ausplay survey) is because Ausplay over-represents soccer, & under-represents the other football codes.

FFA Annual Financial Report 2015 Official Registered Participants- 635,000 (see page 4 in link)
https://www.ffa.com.au/sites/ffa/files/2017-09/FFA Financial Report for the year ended 30 June 2015_1cymyvjvwhzc11hihyzzvcucaq.pdf

FFA Annual Financial Report 2016 Official Registered Participants- 665,000

FFA Annual Financial Report 2017 Official Registered Participants- 1,100,000 (?! Now only cites Ausplay! Brilliant & huge increase by the FFA in one year, world class recruitment effort- how much bigger were the FFA executive bonuses!)
See pg 4 in this link-only mentions Ausplay nos.!
https://www.ffa.com.au/sites/ffa/files/2017-11/FFA Financial Report for the year ended 30 June 2017_0.pdf

(At posts 1159 & 1169 in this thread, I have analysed, in great detail, the recent history of the FFA Annual Official Registered Participant nos.- & their various claims/distortions/falsehoods about their nos. The MSM are too lazy & incompetent to analyse the FFA nos./claims, & simply regurgitate the FFA falsehoods. I don't wish to retype all the above posts again, with multiple links/citations- but some may wish to peruse those posts above for more information).

I suspect there will be an increased, very public, FFA campaign/code war to obtain more govt. & Council funding etc. for GR soccer facilities. The FFA will use the obviously flawed Ausplay statistics to "justify" its claim soccer (citing Ausplay nos., not their Official Registered nos.- & FFA citing also only Ausplay under-recorded AF, RL, & RU nos.) is being underfunded/disadvantaged etc.

The FFA is aware that the AFL will be seeking much more govt. etc funding for facilities to accomodate the AF GR boom. The FFA will attempt to "subvert" the AFL's requests. It will claim soccer, due to its "huge" (inflated) Ausplay nos., has been underfunded, thus has a greater priority/justification for much increased GR soccer facility funding.

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/soccer...on-soccer-infrastructure-20181007-p5088s.html

I strongly suspect the FFA is also using Ausplay nos. to attract local, Chinese, Arabic, & other foreign funding/support for new A League expansion licences- to help awaken "the sleeping giant of Australian sport" to its "rightful manifest destiny & triumph".

On 5.5.2015, the Herald Sun reported the FFA was stating, in its "Whole Of Football Plan... an active participant base of four million people was possible" by 2035.
By 2035, the "FFA has set the goal of soccer's A League becoming the most popular sporting contest in the nation, eclipsing AFL, NRL, cricket and rugby".
These are sentiments/future trajectories the FFA is, I assume, pushing heavily to the foreign investors (excluding Chinese Communist Party Soft Power Australian political ambitions)- private businesses want to make a profit eventually!

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/v...a/news-story/66343c59cbab3be9a0774ee2bd9415c4
 
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Our Game

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"On 5.5.2015, the Herald Sun reported the FFA was stating, in its "Whole Of Football Plan... an active participant base of four million people was possible" by 2035.
By 2035, the "FFA has set the goal of soccer's A League becoming the most popular sporting contest in the nation, eclipsing AFL, NRL, cricket and rugby""

That plan is going really well isnt it?. The way the A League is struggling ATM it may not even exist in 16 years in its current form.
 

BobbyMorri

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I am not aware of any other sport that will-fully miss-characterises the funding and participation of other sports in order to prosecute a case it should exclusively get more. I could be wrong but I have seen soccer do it twice now and can't recall a comparable example from other sports
It is called lobbying. Just because we may not like the argument, doesn't make it misleading or effective.

Get rid of the persecution complex as well. You sound like "hyper sensitive soccer fan." your words, not mine.



Multiple soccer Officials & soccer media commentators have claimed falsely (paraphrasing) "Soccer has more participants than the other football codes combined". They select deliberately the deeply flawed Ausplay statistics that inflate soccer nos. cf Ausplay AF, RL, & RU nos. (Ausplay, a small survey of only 25,000, record a person as a sport "participant" if the person answers he/she played that sport only ONCE in the last YEAR!).
etc etc etc
So??????

Aus Play is an official government survey. Your issue is with how surveys are conducted. That is how surveys are taken anywhere in the world.

I swear we had the same discussion the last time.

It is called lobbying.
"On 5.5.2015, the Herald Sun reported the FFA was stating, in its "Whole Of Football Plan... an active participant base of four million people was possible" by 2035.
By 2035, the "FFA has set the goal of soccer's A League becoming the most popular sporting contest in the nation, eclipsing AFL, NRL, cricket and rugby""

That plan is going really well isnt it?. The way the A League is struggling ATM it may not even exist in 16 years in its current form.
Anything new to add..........
 
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