So who are you suggesting will pick up the bill: none of it adds up.
Play Nice 2019 Non AFL Admin, Crowds, Ratings, Participation etc thread
- Thread starter Our Game
- Start date
- Tagged users None
So who are you suggesting will pick up the bill: none of it adds up.
BringBackTorps
Club Legend
- Jan 5, 2017
- 2,963
- 1,827
- AFL Club
- GWS
Here are the FFA's own 2018 Registered Participant nos., including all separate state nos.
https://www.ffa.com.au/sites/ffa/files/2019-02/FFA 2018 National Participation Report.pdf
The total participant no. is 1,851,683 (cf AF total of 1,649,178).
Included in the 1,851, 683, the FFA counts:-
a. 550,495 in "Community Events and Promotional Experiences".
b. 93,401 in "Social Participants".
a. & b. do not include players in club & school competitions /programs., nor Miniroos (4-11 yo small-sided games), nor junior or adult indoor futsal.
Can anyone provide details on how the FFA counts & defines a. & b.?
It is irksome that many soccer officials, soccer journalists, & MSM general sports' journalists claim, paraphrasing "Football/soccer has more players than the other 3 football codes combined". It is very unfortunate that the lazy, incompetent MSM do not challenge this falsehood- but simply regurgitate it.
https://www.ffa.com.au/sites/ffa/files/2019-02/FFA 2018 National Participation Report.pdf
The total participant no. is 1,851,683 (cf AF total of 1,649,178).
Included in the 1,851, 683, the FFA counts:-
a. 550,495 in "Community Events and Promotional Experiences".
b. 93,401 in "Social Participants".
a. & b. do not include players in club & school competitions /programs., nor Miniroos (4-11 yo small-sided games), nor junior or adult indoor futsal.
Can anyone provide details on how the FFA counts & defines a. & b.?
It is irksome that many soccer officials, soccer journalists, & MSM general sports' journalists claim, paraphrasing "Football/soccer has more players than the other 3 football codes combined". It is very unfortunate that the lazy, incompetent MSM do not challenge this falsehood- but simply regurgitate it.
Last edited:
Our Game
Club Legend
- Thread starter
- #253
"It is irksome that many soccer offiicals, soccer journalists, & MSM general sports' journalists claim, paraphrasing "Football/soccer has more players then the other 3 football codes combined". It is very unfortunate that the lazy, incompetent MSM do not challenge this falsehood- but simply regurgitate it."
The interesting thing about those massive figures if true is that they dont translate into soccer supporters down the track as shown by the stagnating crowds the A League are getting this season.
The difference with the AFL is that tens of thousands of kids many of whom have only done Auskick are taken to matches every week of the season and many of these kids when they grow up become adult supporters and go to matches.
This dosent seem to happen at the soccer as very few of the parents actually attend matches with their kids even though a 1 million + are exposed to the game at a young age.
The interesting thing about those massive figures if true is that they dont translate into soccer supporters down the track as shown by the stagnating crowds the A League are getting this season.
The difference with the AFL is that tens of thousands of kids many of whom have only done Auskick are taken to matches every week of the season and many of these kids when they grow up become adult supporters and go to matches.
This dosent seem to happen at the soccer as very few of the parents actually attend matches with their kids even though a 1 million + are exposed to the game at a young age.
Lots of kids go to little aths ..... no different to little kids & Auskick in AFL developing markets.
I suspect a. is primarily targeted at beefing up the overall numbers. I can't see an equivalent in the AFL numbers (though the AFL registers are far higher number in "school based programs" than the FFA)
In terms of b) the AFL's social participation is basically the AFL 9s. Perhaps the FFA's measures summer small sided competitions. I'm sure it doesn't capture informal participation
In terms of outdoor club and competition participation, what's interesting is that Australian football is ahead by about 100K based on their own numbers
- Moderator
- #256
Our Game
Club Legend
- Thread starter
- #257
Interesting report in the Fairfax papers today re the A League and Fox Sports
Owners must urgently address A-League's TV slump: Wanderers chair
By Vince Rugari
February 25, 2019 — 7.00pm
Western Sydney Wanderers chairman Paul Lederer admits club owners face an "urgent" task in halting an alarming decline in television ratings and bringing excitement back to the A-League as they seek to take control of the ailing competition.
Crowds have held steady across the board this season, but ratings figures on Fox Sports continue to nosedive and the pay TV operator's appetite for domestic football appears to be waning.
Fox's attempt to withhold a $5 million increase to the A-League's broadcast deal by arguing incoming expansion team Western United are not based in Melbourne – as well as their opposition to a longer 30-round season – suggest the competition is skating on thin ice.
There have also been fears that Fox could use the A-League's pending split from Football Federation Australia as a trigger to renegotiate – or, in what would be a doomsday scenario for the sport, tear up – the $58 million-per-year agreement which effectively covers the salary cap and expires in 2023.
Owners must urgently address A-League's TV slump: Wanderers chair
By Vince Rugari
February 25, 2019 — 7.00pm
Western Sydney Wanderers chairman Paul Lederer admits club owners face an "urgent" task in halting an alarming decline in television ratings and bringing excitement back to the A-League as they seek to take control of the ailing competition.
Crowds have held steady across the board this season, but ratings figures on Fox Sports continue to nosedive and the pay TV operator's appetite for domestic football appears to be waning.
Fox's attempt to withhold a $5 million increase to the A-League's broadcast deal by arguing incoming expansion team Western United are not based in Melbourne – as well as their opposition to a longer 30-round season – suggest the competition is skating on thin ice.
There have also been fears that Fox could use the A-League's pending split from Football Federation Australia as a trigger to renegotiate – or, in what would be a doomsday scenario for the sport, tear up – the $58 million-per-year agreement which effectively covers the salary cap and expires in 2023.
- Apr 20, 2006
- 9,142
- 12,202
- AFL Club
- Carlton
It really is a dire situation they find themselves in. Fox could be the sole realistic bidder for their next rights if the current trend continues or even if they don’t get some good growth before the deal is up. It’s not just the TV rights either though, it’s also sponsorship. They actually do an amazing job to find quality sponsors with the size of their audience but you would imagine they couldn’t be happy with the current situation.
They really have to get their s**t together and make sure these new sides are a success otherwise there could be a massive snowball effect.
BringBackTorps
Club Legend
- Jan 5, 2017
- 2,963
- 1,827
- AFL Club
- GWS
FFV CEO P. Filopoulos sets out the model FFA template on how it will publicly lobby govts. & councils etc for more GR soccer facility funding -"...and, potentially, boutique stadia".
The FFV claims it successfully obtained $118,000,000 public funding in 2018 for GR soccer. "Govt. sources" say some of this funding "...has taken money off the table for the AFL". They also claim Vic. GR soccer "participant" nos. had a phenomenal "24% growth year on year from 2017".
The FFV has added a new & additional falsehood to soccer officials' litany of other falsehoods, re their participant nos. P. Filopoulos said "We are the only growing sport...". On previous history, it is unlikely the lazy & incompetent MSM will call the FFA/FFV etc to account for these falsehoods.
I hope & expect Govts. & Councils etc. are better informed of the actual participation facts.
Also, soccer has a broader range of programs, & has a multiplicity of year-round formats (eg winter & summer soccer comps. & training programs, futsal- for both clubs and schools); & is is FAR less physically demanding- so is likely to have many more participants counted twice or thrice (cf AF, RL, & RU).
https://www.ftbl.com.au/news/ffvs-118-million-strategy-to-supercharge-football-519580
The FFV claims it successfully obtained $118,000,000 public funding in 2018 for GR soccer. "Govt. sources" say some of this funding "...has taken money off the table for the AFL". They also claim Vic. GR soccer "participant" nos. had a phenomenal "24% growth year on year from 2017".
The FFV has added a new & additional falsehood to soccer officials' litany of other falsehoods, re their participant nos. P. Filopoulos said "We are the only growing sport...". On previous history, it is unlikely the lazy & incompetent MSM will call the FFA/FFV etc to account for these falsehoods.
I hope & expect Govts. & Councils etc. are better informed of the actual participation facts.
Also, soccer has a broader range of programs, & has a multiplicity of year-round formats (eg winter & summer soccer comps. & training programs, futsal- for both clubs and schools); & is is FAR less physically demanding- so is likely to have many more participants counted twice or thrice (cf AF, RL, & RU).
https://www.ftbl.com.au/news/ffvs-118-million-strategy-to-supercharge-football-519580
Last edited:
Who would have thunk it? It wasn't just a great big conspiracy against soccer after all, you just need to demonstrate community value when you are bidding for tax payer funding!
Mr Filopoulos is well experienced across the sports landscape, i.e is well able to sort the wood from the trees.
BringBackTorps
Club Legend
- Jan 5, 2017
- 2,963
- 1,827
- AFL Club
- GWS
1. Tasmanian soccer official, M. Bulkeley (CEO FT) said a few days ago, re Tasmania
" We have also set a target to grow participation to...a total of 26,000 players, volunteers, coaches and referees...".
This suggests the FFA includes "volunteers, coaches and referees" in its national total of 1,851,683 (2018) "participants".
Does anyone know/confirm (or have other information etc.) if this is soccer's definition of official, registered "participants".
The AFL does not include GR AF volunteers in its total (2018) of 1,649,178 "participants". IIRC, the AFL has previously claimed there are c. 200,000 AF volunteers in Australia. (The 2008 Annual report said there were c. 100,000 volunteers in GR AF)
https://footballfedtas.com.au/football-tasmania-releases-state-of-play-report/
(This includes the actual State Of Play Report)
2. In Tas. soccer's State Of Play Report, it states "Football participation in Tasmania is bursting at the seams, with over 17,000 registered participants making football the state's largest club-based sport". Again this is a falsehood.
The AFL claims c. 44,407 Tas. Official, registered participants (& the AFL does not count volunteers in its Official "participant"nos.)
Will the MSM challenge these soccer falsehoods? Probably not, why? The FFA is using their own official participant statistics to propagate their case for increased govt., Council etc. funding (& probably private funding, sponsorships etc.). I suspect they are also making these falsehoods to Chinese, Middle Eastern etc. entities to "boost" Australian soccer, & to invest in soccer in Australia.
" We have also set a target to grow participation to...a total of 26,000 players, volunteers, coaches and referees...".
This suggests the FFA includes "volunteers, coaches and referees" in its national total of 1,851,683 (2018) "participants".
Does anyone know/confirm (or have other information etc.) if this is soccer's definition of official, registered "participants".
The AFL does not include GR AF volunteers in its total (2018) of 1,649,178 "participants". IIRC, the AFL has previously claimed there are c. 200,000 AF volunteers in Australia. (The 2008 Annual report said there were c. 100,000 volunteers in GR AF)
https://footballfedtas.com.au/football-tasmania-releases-state-of-play-report/
(This includes the actual State Of Play Report)
2. In Tas. soccer's State Of Play Report, it states "Football participation in Tasmania is bursting at the seams, with over 17,000 registered participants making football the state's largest club-based sport". Again this is a falsehood.
The AFL claims c. 44,407 Tas. Official, registered participants (& the AFL does not count volunteers in its Official "participant"nos.)
Will the MSM challenge these soccer falsehoods? Probably not, why? The FFA is using their own official participant statistics to propagate their case for increased govt., Council etc. funding (& probably private funding, sponsorships etc.). I suspect they are also making these falsehoods to Chinese, Middle Eastern etc. entities to "boost" Australian soccer, & to invest in soccer in Australia.
Last edited:
- Apr 20, 2006
- 9,142
- 12,202
- AFL Club
- Carlton
It’s all BS mate. Tassie soccer have about 11,000 players. “Participants” make up the rest. I remember hearing on the radio when they were talking about AFL neglecting Tassie that “soccer will take over” but apparently they actually have had a drop in actual players as well.
The AFL done the same in counting umpires, coaches ect.
I wonder if Joe Blow who coaches the ones, plays ones and Refs the juniors than in the off-season plays 9’s/touch/futsal how many times he is counted by the sports.
Same as a kid doing a “program” at a school than plays on the weekends as well or play soccer and futsal.
All participation numbers are a farce.
- May 13, 2012
- 15,812
- 5,965
- AFL Club
- GWS
- Other Teams
- Brumbies, Socceroos
As long as everyone understands how the numbers are counted. If sports want to count players, officials, whatever, just do it as accurately as you can and qualify your numbers.
Double counting is a bit of an issue, but there are probably ways to reduce the impact of that.
It's very difficult to stage an official game of Australian Football, even at amateur level: at least six umps, 40 to 44 players, independent time keeper, coaches, managers, scoreboard attendants, a hell of a lot of people need to come together to get a game off the ground - it's probably something worth counting.
Double counting is a bit of an issue, but there are probably ways to reduce the impact of that.
It's very difficult to stage an official game of Australian Football, even at amateur level: at least six umps, 40 to 44 players, independent time keeper, coaches, managers, scoreboard attendants, a hell of a lot of people need to come together to get a game off the ground - it's probably something worth counting.
- Apr 20, 2006
- 9,142
- 12,202
- AFL Club
- Carlton
Soccer count volunteers too apparently which seems crazy. I’m not sure what justifies a volunteer but nearly every club I’ve ever been at has had about 50 volunteers in some capacity. Most likely more actually
- Moderator
- #266
Holy moly. You really need a break and to take the foil off. That last paragraph is something else.
So, let me get this right. When Soccer uses Ausplay figures, you dont like that. But when Soccer uses official participant statistics, you don't like that either. What figures would you like instead.....
FFT (or FT now), is a separate body from the FFA, so lets keep it Tassie based. Is soccer allowed to make a case for more funding from the government without wild theories about foreign investment? Is soccer allowed to have targets? Is soccer allowed to talk itself up?
Btw, The last club participation figure from AFL Tas in 2017 was 13K, that 44K figure is overall. The important word there is club based. Now the question is, what is club based....I say lets not make this an academic study and treat these figures as spin and marketing.
Having had a quick look, I noticed something far more relevant.
Soccers outdoor playing numbers fell from 2017 from 12.1K to 11.7K. But in saying that, so did mens in AFL(4% IIRC). And it might be worse this year with another largeish club going into a recess(Circular Head). The AFL p.rate only increased due to the female boom which is going on atm. And i think these 2 things are linked regarding soccer declining numbers. I noticed that there are fewer teams in big comps of women's soccer, and one of the reasons they gave was the fact they lost players to Aussie Rules clubs. I am not saying it is the only reason and I don't have numbers or a trend for it. Just a theory.
BringBackTorps
Club Legend
- Jan 5, 2017
- 2,963
- 1,827
- AFL Club
- GWS
I have provided numerous quotes & Links in this thread by soccer officials where they have made false claims re their participant nos., & those of other codes.
Do you agree they are falsehoods? And do you support them making these falsehoods?
Last edited:
BringBackTorps
Club Legend
- Jan 5, 2017
- 2,963
- 1,827
- AFL Club
- GWS
1. Yes, they are all not completely accurate.
The official nos. reported by all sports (including the AFL, FFA, NRL & RA) would have some players, sometimes, being counted twice or thrice- but the actual sports' own registrations are the most accurate figures available.
Soccer, due to its "easy" format/rules/relative safety/good player recovery times/12 month pa playing availablity etc. would have the most nos. of players who are counted, officially, multiple times.
Also, AFL, FFA, NRL, RA & most sports' Official nos. have 50%+ who are involved in various One-off & short term events -ie non Club or school regular competition players.
AFL Victoria states, in 2018, Vic. has 80,000 AF volunteers- but AF never include these in the Official, registered "participant"nos.
https://aflvic.com.au/record-participation-for-football-in-victoria/
If the FFA is including volunteers, then the AFL can also include its c.200,000, volunteers. This would result in Official AFL nos. being very close to official FFA nos.
2. Marketing experts are claiming that the NRL off-season scandals will have long term negative effects on the levels of funding it will receive from sponsors.
https://www.nambuccaguardian.com.au/story/5903771/nrl-warned-of-sponsor-exodus-over-scandals/
SEN Radio 28.2 G. Whateley program interviewed an NRL reporter (didn't hear the name)- who said the NRL has lost c. $10,000,000 in sponsorship due to the current negative publicity generated by the off-field poor NRL player behaviour/ media reporting.
Last edited:
- Apr 20, 2006
- 9,142
- 12,202
- AFL Club
- Carlton
I’m surprised that AFL don’t count volunteers like soccer if you can get away with it.
- May 13, 2012
- 15,812
- 5,965
- AFL Club
- GWS
- Other Teams
- Brumbies, Socceroos
Given Australian Football requires double or triple the volunteers of other sports, you can hear the outcry now if the AFL started counting volunteers.
who is listening ?
Check out the replies to Wookies' tweets about participation rates
- Apr 20, 2006
- 9,142
- 12,202
- AFL Club
- Carlton
The cynic in me would guess they are just waiting for the boom in female growth to end and will add them as soon as their is any negative growth. It makes no sense why they wouldn’t if other sports are.
link?
Similar threads
- Poll
