Play Nice 2019 Non AFL Admin, Crowds, Ratings, Participation etc thread

May 4, 2009
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I have provided numerous quotes & Links in this thread by soccer officials where they have made false claims re their participant nos., & those of other codes.
Do you agree they are falsehoods? And do you support them making these falsehoods?
FFA don't have to do anything. Why do the FFA have to go with any other sports method, if indeed they count differently? Your whole burden of proof regarding volunteers is one quote from someone from Tasmania and probably out of context. What is a player, what is a volunteer? It is an impossible question the further and further in you decide to count. The only numbers which have any meaning are the number or clubs and players playing for a club. But even then, I have little faith in organisations being totally truthful. Heck, half the time here, we have people questioning attendance figures.

Would i like more reliable numbers? yes.. Is that ever going to happen? Hell no. Reckon if I went into each sport participation figures, each one would say it grew in some way. Funny that organisations are so worried that the new gen are not going to engage in traditional sports yet, they keep on growing year on year.
 
May 4, 2009
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definition of participant has to be established before claiming you beat everyone else.
They could quote the Ausplay numbers. They could quote that A+B+C+BC>A+C from another sport. Their response(which they won't give to mutts like us) would be some sort of spin to prove they are right.

It is not like the AFL have been accused in the past about fudging Auskick figures.
 
Jul 2, 2010
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They could quote the Ausplay numbers. They could quote that A+B+C+BC>A+C from another sport. Their response(which they won't give to mutts like us) would be some sort of spin to prove they are right.

It is not like the AFL have been accused in the past about fudging Auskick figures.

A week ago they came out an claimed their particpation numbers v everyone elses meant they should get more funding. You cant do that if you cant establish a baseline for participation.

The AFL werent out there in 2011 claiming they had more than everyone else so please give us the oval instead of everyone else.
 
May 4, 2009
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A week ago they came out an claimed their particpation numbers v everyone elses meant they should get more funding. You cant do that if you cant establish a baseline for participation.

The AFL werent out there in 2011 claiming they had more than everyone else so please give us the oval instead of everyone else.

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/afl/afl-accused-of-exploiting-figures-20120723-22knq.html
THE NSW/ACT AFL has been accused of exaggerating its registered players in the Leichhardt municipality, calling into the question the sporting body's numbers across Sydney.

Before tonight's Leichhardt Council meeting to decide whether Australian football will be played on Birchgrove Oval

nah, they wouldn't do that.

I will give them the benefit of the doubt. Probably was an honest mistake and the Sydney NRL press seized on it. I am sure you know more about it than I do.

Soccer comes out as the most played in most surveys, so it is not a big stretch. But i don't care about that.

Do other sports do what you ask the FFA? Would you be able to go up to AFL headquarters and get a detailed list of all the numbers and where they come from? And i don't mean that colourful sheet of paper they do. The FFA do one very similar.
 

jatz14

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https://www.smh.com.au/sport/afl/afl-accused-of-exploiting-figures-20120723-22knq.html


nah, they wouldn't do that.

I will give them the benefit of the doubt. Probably was an honest mistake and the Sydney NRL press seized on it. I am sure you know more about it than I do.

Soccer comes out as the most played in most surveys, so it is not a big stretch. But i don't care about that.

Do other sports do what you ask the FFA? Would you be able to go up to AFL headquarters and get a detailed list of all the numbers and where they come from? And i don't mean that colourful sheet of paper they do. The FFA do one very similar.
The FFA do not need to do a detailed breakdown, nor do the AFL. However, if they, or any other sport is requesting funding based on grass roots numbers, then generic participation figures should be treated with a bit of disdain by government.

The reason sports don't do this, beyond that it is hard to do, is what happens when the figures do not look rosy?

Someone posted somewhere that the recent Tas soccer figures showing a participation rise masks a small fall in the number of actual players.

Rubbery figures allow the info to be presented in the best light. The downside is they shouldn't be then taken to seriously.

No one is saying the FFA is particularly worse than other sports, just that the plethora of social and summer soccer leagues gives the FFA much more rubbery figures to work with than other sports.


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Jul 2, 2010
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https://www.smh.com.au/sport/afl/afl-accused-of-exploiting-figures-20120723-22knq.html


nah, they wouldn't do that.

I will give them the benefit of the doubt. Probably was an honest mistake and the Sydney NRL press seized on it. I am sure you know more about it than I do.

Soccer comes out as the most played in most surveys, so it is not a big stretch. But i don't care about that.

Do other sports do what you ask the FFA? Would you be able to go up to AFL headquarters and get a detailed list of all the numbers and where they come from? And i don't mean that colourful sheet of paper they do. The FFA do one very similar.

Again lets pull stuff from 7 years ago, before the AFL ran an audit of its processes and changed everything. Its also worth noting that 1) Council offered the Oval, the AFL didnt ask for it and 2) the media campaign was run by Fairfax in Sydney whose editor just happened to be involved with a soccer club that also wanted facilities.

Other sports arent out there claiming they are hard done by compared to other sports on a dollars per participant basis.
 
May 4, 2009
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Again lets pull stuff from 7 years ago, before the AFL ran an audit of its processes and changed everything. Its also worth noting that 1) Council offered the Oval, the AFL didnt ask for it and 2) the media campaign was run by Fairfax in Sydney whose editor just happened to be involved with a soccer club that also wanted facilities.

Other sports arent out there claiming they are hard done by compared to other sports on a dollars per participant basis.
Again....... That was the first time i mentioned it. I also said that you would know more about it than me and that I will give them the benefit of the doubt. Not exactly laying in the boot there.

I dont trust any organisations numbers. I see them as marketing disguised as information. Official Clubs numbers and players are beneficial but participation...please. Continual growth year on year.

When the whole $/participant was brought up the first time i said

But i find the whole "by the numbers" approach flawed. Every sport and club have different needs and it is a simplistic approach to just say a sport should get said funding just because it has x number of people. It is far too simplistic.

Our democracy "works" via lobbying for funding. That is the role of sporting organisations. You would hope that they would be able to make a really good case for more funding if little Timmy couldn't play on the weekend because there are no facilities available. For me, that is the most important aspect of sporting funding at grassroots level. That every kid/adult can play.

We get one of these articles about a sport every month or so. It must be soccers turn. Next month will be the other 2 football codes. Not saying the articles are not right, but every sport always wants more funding.

The FFA are trying to make a case for more general funding by using its strength. good for them. Just because we may not like the argument, doesn't make it deliberately misleading or ineffective. It is the government's job to either listen to the FFA or ignore it. In other words, lobbying, like the whole "'Dress it up as women's sport': the new pork barrel'" article.
 
Interesting listening to Ernie Merrick absolutely slamming the changeroom facilities at Kardinia Park after the Victory - Newcastle game there tonight. Apparently ridiculously cramped and with no air conditioning on this 38 degree day. Will be submitting a complaint to the league. Presumably they didn’t get the AFL rooms, if so why not?

The turnout looked pretty poor as well. Not the greatest given Western United will be playing several games there next season.
 
May 4, 2009
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Interesting listening to Ernie Merrick absolutely slamming the changeroom facilities at Kardinia Park after the Victory - Newcastle game there tonight. Apparently ridiculously cramped and with no air conditioning on this 38 degree day. Will be submitting a complaint to the league. Presumably they didn’t get the AFL rooms, if so why not?

The turnout looked pretty poor as well. Not the greatest given Western United will be playing several games there next season.
8K there. The Geelong game got 22K back in 2015 and has steadily decreased since then. They expected 15K tonight so it must have been a shocking member turnout or a very bad prediction.

Western United are playing every game there for the next 2 seasons so that decrease would be of huge concern. My question...Why would any changerooms at a modern facility not have Air Con....
 

jatz14

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8K there. The Geelong game got 22K back in 2015 and has steadily decreased since then. They expected 15K tonight so it must have been a shocking member turnout or a very bad prediction.

Western United are playing every game there for the next 2 seasons so that decrease would be of huge concern. My question...Why would any changerooms at a modern facility not have Air Con....
Another question, why is it coming up now? Wouldnt they get all this sorted as part of the bidding process?



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May 13, 2012
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Interesting listening to Ernie Merrick absolutely slamming the changeroom facilities at Kardinia Park after the Victory - Newcastle game there tonight. Apparently ridiculously cramped and with no air conditioning on this 38 degree day. Will be submitting a complaint to the league. Presumably they didn’t get the AFL rooms, if so why not?

The turnout looked pretty poor as well. Not the greatest given Western United will be playing several games there next season.

must have been given the sheilas rooms
 

BringBackTorps

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In my post #1564, I outlined:-

. mainland Chinese (all "private" companies & organisations are, ultimately, totally controlled by the Chinese Communist Party) full or partial ownership in some A League clubs, & the failed Chinese-financed Southern Sydney bid for a new A League licence.
(Oddly, it still has not been publicly announced who the financial backers of the new Western United club are).

. Chinese Soft Power ambitions, to further their interests, in other countries; & the concerns/ opprobrium this might attract in the target countries- which might have negative impacts on the A League.

Last night, former PM M.Turnbull made an important speech in London on the military "threat" of China posed by claiming & creating artificial reef islands (illegally, according to all International Courts), & building military bases on them; & cyber security/hacking/theft of intellectual property.

Turnbull said Australia was "...defending our own sovereignty...on national security grounds"; & that Australia was the first country in the world to ban Chinese companies Huawei & ZTE from having an involvement in our 5G network (Other countries have, also, since done this).

Chinese Soft Power risks are a bipartisan political issue in Australia, & are likely to increase.
The FFA & A League model is to seek extensive private funding for all its A League clubs, who are to be 100% privately owned.
If this funding derives from mainland China (and/or despotic, brutal Middle Eastern oil potentates), is the FFA risking a public backlash?

https://www.malcolmturnbull.com.au/media/address-to-the-henry-jackson-society-london
 
May 4, 2009
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Chinese Soft Power risks are a bipartisan political issue in Australia, & are likely to increase.
The FFA & A League model is to seek extensive private funding for all its A League clubs, who are to be 100% privately owned.
If this funding derives from mainland China (and/or despotic, brutal Middle Eastern oil potentates), is the FFA risking a public backlash?

https://www.malcolmturnbull.com.au/media/address-to-the-henry-jackson-society-london
Is sport risking a public backlash? Is sport risking a public backlash when they let gambling companies or foreign government companies sponsor them? I mean, it isn't a soccer club moving away games to China and Soccer isn't the only sport who have 100% private ownership.

And in case you have forgotten, Melbourne City is owned by a Middle East ownership group. They are struggling but you can't blame that on nationalist fever you suggest.

Was there a public backlash when a Saudi prince was rumoured to be interesting in Man Utd? I say yes, but it was the same as when the Glazers took over them. I personally despise payday lenders and was unhappy when Wonga(a payday lender in England) sponsored Newcastle United. Sport and "dirty" money is an issue but where do you draw the line. Emirates airline is owned wholly by the UAE but I don't see many people unhappy with their sponsorship of an awful lot of things.
 

jatz14

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In my post #1564, I outlined:-

. mainland Chinese (all "private" companies & organisations are, ultimately, totally controlled by the Chinese Communist Party) full or partial ownership in some A League clubs, & the failed Chinese-financed Southern Sydney bid for a new A League licence.
(Oddly, it still has not been publicly announced who the financial backers of the new Western United club are).

. Chinese Soft Power ambitions, to further their interests, in other countries; & the concerns/ opprobrium this might attract in the target countries- which might have negative impacts on the A League.

Last night, former PM M.Turnbull made an important speech in London on the military "threat" of China posed by claiming & creating artificial reef islands (illegally, according to all International Courts), & building military bases on them; & cyber security/hacking/theft of intellectual property.

Turnbull said Australia was "...defending our own sovereignty...on national security grounds"; & that Australia was the first country in the world to ban Chinese companies Huawei & ZTE from having an involvement in our 5G network (Other countries have, also, since done this).

Chinese Soft Power risks are a bipartisan political issue in Australia, & are likely to increase.
The FFA & A League model is to seek extensive private funding for all its A League clubs, who are to be 100% privately owned.
If this funding derives from mainland China (and/or despotic, brutal Middle Eastern oil potentates), is the FFA risking a public backlash?

https://www.malcolmturnbull.com.au/media/address-to-the-henry-jackson-society-london
Corrupt Russian oligarchs pouring money into their EPL clubs didn't seem to cause a backlash. Indeed, fans seemed to relish the clubs having money on tap.

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NoobPie

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In my post #1564, I outlined:-

. mainland Chinese (all "private" companies & organisations are, ultimately, totally controlled by the Chinese Communist Party) full or partial ownership in some A League clubs, & the failed Chinese-financed Southern Sydney bid for a new A League licence.
(Oddly, it still has not been publicly announced who the financial backers of the new Western United club are).

. Chinese Soft Power ambitions, to further their interests, in other countries; & the concerns/ opprobrium this might attract in the target countries- which might have negative impacts on the A League.

Last night, former PM M.Turnbull made an important speech in London on the military "threat" of China posed by claiming & creating artificial reef islands (illegally, according to all International Courts), & building military bases on them; & cyber security/hacking/theft of intellectual property.

Turnbull said Australia was "...defending our own sovereignty...on national security grounds"; & that Australia was the first country in the world to ban Chinese companies Huawei & ZTE from having an involvement in our 5G network (Other countries have, also, since done this).

Chinese Soft Power risks are a bipartisan political issue in Australia, & are likely to increase.
The FFA & A League model is to seek extensive private funding for all its A League clubs, who are to be 100% privately owned.
If this funding derives from mainland China (and/or despotic, brutal Middle Eastern oil potentates), is the FFA risking a public backlash?

https://www.malcolmturnbull.com.au/media/address-to-the-henry-jackson-society-london

The risk is more around financial sustainability. With a salary cap of ~$3M the franchises are for the most part losing $millions and the league is going backwards at a rate of knots

When looking at sports with franchises instead of (member-based) clubs, you need to factor that their losses can be used to offset the owners tax burden so as a rule of thumb, Australian taxpayers are contributing ~30 per cent of those A-League franchise losses.....Also, it seems that many of the bidders for A-League licences are property developers.

I the franchises get hold of full control over the A-League, which seems possible, they will be able to offset these losses through having more control of the revenues. On the other hand they will also take full ownership of one very unhinged supporter group that currently reserves most of its anger and frustration at the FFA

As it is about 60% of A-League ownership is foreign.
 
May 4, 2009
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Opening a closed topic but thought this would address my issues regarding sports funding perfectly. Interesting to read on the facebook page of this announcement that basketball people are complaining about a lack of money for their sport. Indeed a quote from the former premier of Tasmania, David Bartlett* on said facebook page says
Looks like the peak body of soccer have been doing their job... shame about basketball.

*It should be noted that David has a significant beef with Basketball Tasmania.

This announcement is on top of funding for 2 soccer club grounds at KGV and Darcy St in Hobart by Wilkie. Good work by Football Tas imo(and Wilkie)
 

NoobPie

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I'm guessing there was no sport on to speak of last night but it certainly seems unusual coming out of summer when the cricket is on every day that not one sport's program was in the top 20 fox shows last night...the cut off was only 28K!


1551933488102.png
 

BringBackTorps

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Was there a public backlash when a Saudi prince was rumoured to be interesting in Man Utd? I say yes, but it was the same as when the Glazers took over them. I personally despise payday lenders and was unhappy when Wonga(a payday lender in England) sponsored Newcastle United. Sport and "dirty" money is an issue but where do you draw the line.[Military & economic threats] Emirates airline is owned wholly by the UAE but I don't see many people unhappy with their sponsorship of an awful lot of things.[People dont follow/cheer for Airlines]
There is a difference between "unpleasant" sponsors & "unpleasant" Owners of sporting Clubs.

There is also a difference between "unpleasant" Russian corrupt oligarchs/ Middle Eastern brutal, mediaeval dictatorships... and the Chinese Communist Party.

The CCP:-
. is in control of the world's biggest land army; & a very large navy & Air Force, which is now projecting its power into the North & South Pacific
. has an international nuclear arsenal/missiles/atomic & hydrogen bombs
. has the world's 2nd biggest economy (some say it will be the biggest in the next 20 years).
. is seeking close ties with South Pacific island states, & PNG (which is causing bipartisan political consternation in Australia)
. has been responsible for the deaths /starvation of many millions of its own citizens
. is claiming exclusive navigation and "fly-over" rights to vast areas of the Pacific (all its claims have been refuted in International Tribunals).
. has invaded Vietnam in 1978; was the main supporter of the murderous (500,000-1,500,000?) Pol Pot Cambodian regime; & the main supporter of brutal Nth Korea.
. if it enforces militarily the "exclusion zones", this would be to the great economic detriment of Australian trading ships, & Australian commercial aviation/tourism (much longer & more expensive routes).

Thus, China is a potential military threat to Australia.
Late in 2018, one of its naval vessels almost rammed-deliberately- a US navy vessel in international waters (near one of its man-made reef islands), which China claims as its exclusion zone. If similar actions cause actual military hostilities, I believe there will be a significant backlash against China in Australia & the West/other Asian countries. There will be opprobrium for Chinese owned/controlled soccer Clubs, & the A League.
 
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May 4, 2009
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There is a difference between "unpleasant" sponsors & "unpleasant" Owners of sporting Clubs.

There is also a difference between "unpleasant" Russian corrupt oligarchs/ Middle Eastern despotic, brutal dictatorships and the Chinese Communist Party.

The CCP:-
. is in control of the world's biggest land army; & a very large navy & Air Force, which is now projecting its power into the North & South Pacific
. has an international nuclear arsenal/missiles/atomic & hydrogen bombs
. has the world's 2nd biggest economy (some say it will be the biggest in the next 20 years).
. is seeking close ties with South Pacific island states, & PNG (which is causing bipartisan political consternation in Australia)
. has been responsible for the deaths /starvation of many millions of its own citizens
. is claiming exclusive navigation and "fly-over" rights to vast areas of the Pacific (all its claims have been refuted in International Tribunals).
. has invaded Vietnam in 1978; was the main supporter of the murderous (500,000-1,500,000?) Pol Pot Cambodian regime; & the main supporter of brutal Nth Korea.
. if it enforces militarily the "exclusion zones", this would be to the great detriment of Australian trading ships, & Australian commercial aviation/tourism.

Thus, China is a potential military threat to Australia.
Late in 2018, one of its naval vessels almost rammed-deliberately- a US navy vessel in international waters (near one of its man-made reef islands), which China claims as its exclusion zone. IMO, if similar actions actually cause military hostilities, I believe there will be a significant backlash against China in Australia & the West/other Asian countries- & there will be opprobrium for Chinese owned/controlled soccer Clubs, & the A League
Australia - fearing China since 1870. What risk could a Chinese owned club be to Australia?

you mean the 13.8% of Chinese ownership in A-league clubs, of which, only 1 has a majority(Newcastle Jets). Also, soccer fans go for their club, not their owners. Owners are just there to leech money off. They don't cheer on their owners.*

I do like how you underplay sponsorship. When a club has a sponsor, they are endorsing that brand and promoting it to a wide audience. Are you comfortable that Port are promoting China? Should this "backlash" not hit them as well.....Yes, Port can drop China quickly while Newcastle are stuck but I know which club has promoted China a lot more in the last 2 years.

* You could make a case they do for the clubs very closely linked to the company, such as Red Bull Leipzig, sorry RB Leipzig.

As it is about 60% of A-League ownership is foreign.
or around 50% of ownership in the A-league is locally owned.
 
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